Evidence for God from Science

Anyway, Ron Paul is toast! What surprises me are Christians who are anti-Israel. The Presbyterian Church USA, Lutherans in the USA, Catholics from Judea & Samaria, Orthodox Christians from Greece and Egypt and Russia, Archbishop Desmond Tutu...the list goes on and on. I can understand atheists and people like Ivellious being anti-Israel, but what's with you and neo-x?

I am quite disappointed for this unmerited stereotyping. I'm not against Israel, nor anyone else for that matter. I just don't see them above reproach. God loves them? yeah (he loves everyone), he came through them? yeah, does that make them spiritually above others? No. God loves the Palestinian the same as he loves the Jew or you and me. "God so loved the world". His love is without a bias. God's plan for Israel is true that they would be branched back in Christ but that does not give them any advantage as being "we are always right so support us, those who don't, are cursed." That is just wrong, no matter how you come about it. Equating Israel's actions as a whole to "God's work" and then calling divine clemency as the only rationale, and insulting others for pointing out the flaw with " you are opposing God by opposing us", is a fallacy. If you do not see it, I can not help that. I'm all up for supporting them but it has to be fair within the framework of Christianity, else it is politics. God will help them when the time will come, and amen to that but that does not mean they are morally or spiritually superior. Neither God is going to help them because they are special. they are special because of God's promises, not by their own merit. So the speciality lies with in the promise of God and his grace, not their lineage or past or land. Paul went to lengths to explain that.

I don't think that every action of Israel is directed by God (and I would love to see someone substantiate that claim rather then assert it) nor do I think that just because they are Jews, they can't be wrong or not be responsible for their actions. I don't buy into 'we have to (blindly) support Israel because they are God's people", well to begin, not every Jew, who is a born Jew, is a Jew to God. Paul was very clear on that. When you try to lump all of them in the same category and then claim divine backing up, is when it all gets hazy and I don't want anyone to get that benefit of doubt for political motivations. Lets be clear. We are told to discern and it a far-cry from blindingly following a government, which may not be even directed by God, may be not even right now. Can you prove biblically, or anyone else for that matter, that God is working with the Govt. of Israel? Be my guest, prove it.

Spiritual matters and political matters have a fine line of difference in them. People from middle ages followed political agendas with Deus vult. How do you know you are not any different?

As I said earlier once, define Israel, define Jews, then we may proceed.

RickD wrote:Cmon, FL. That's a misrepresentation of me. Just because I don't cry anti semitism, every time someone questions what Israel, as a nation, does,that doesn't mean I'm anti Israel.

I know...I just wanted to provoke you!

neo-x wrote:'we have to (blindly) support Israel because they are God's people",

Who said that???

neo-x wrote:Can you prove biblically, or anyone else for that matter, that God is working with the Govt. of Israel?

Who claimed that???

neo-x wrote:As I said earlier once, define Israel, define Jews, then we may proceed.

Israel: a nation of 8 million people located in the Middle East, bordered by the Mediterranean on the west, Egypt on the south-west, Jordan on the east, Syria & Lebanon to the North; capital city is Jerusalem. Official religion: Judaism. Official language: Hebrew.

Jews: people who descended from Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, these may or may not have faith. Also, followers of Judaism by birth or those adopted into the faith, as well as those who adopted the faith.

Anything you would like to add?

FL

neo-x wrote:'we have to (blindly) support Israel because they are God's people",



Who said that???

neo-x wrote:Can you prove biblically, or anyone else for that matter, that God is working with the Govt. of Israel?



Who claimed that???

FL, if you look back at the thread, you'll see that when people question the Israeli govt, or question anything that someone in Israel does, it's taken by some, as being anti-Israel. Since when does questioning the actions or motives of someone in a govt, equate to being against that country? If that's really the case, then count me as the most anti-American person alive. I always question things our govt does. In fact, I question stupid policies people in my company enact. That doesn't mean I'm against the company I work for.

RickD wrote:FL, if you look back at the thread, you'll see that when people question the Israeli govt, or question anything that someone in Israel does, it's taken by some, as being anti-Israel.

I went back and looked. I only saw veiled anti-semitism on the part of one person; he's a non-believer anyway so it is to be expected. No surprise there. As I've stated before, what does surprise me is the anti-Israel/anti-semitism of groups such as these:

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: The Presbyterian Church USA, Lutherans in the USA, Catholics from Judea & Samaria, Orthodox Christians from Greece and Egypt and Russia, Archbishop Desmond Tutu...the list goes on and on.

I'm sure all of these would flatly deny the charge of being anti-semite, yet some among them have declared that the Jewish state is ''a sin'' and an occupying power that dehumanizes Palestinians. Some have even said that they approve of ''resistance as a Chistian duty''. Pax Christi, an international Catholic group, vigorously promotes the boycott of Israeli merchandise in retail stores. Desmond Tutu managed to get the University of Johannesburg to ''sever all ties with Israeli fellows.'' Catholic Archbishop Cyrille Salim Bustros said, ''We Christians cannot speak about the Promised Land for the Jewish people. There is no longer a chosen people.''

What is wrong here? Why are Christians doing and saying such things? Here is just a little bit of what your Bible says about Israel:

Ge 35:12 and Jos 1:4, God's promise of the land of Israel.
Ex 23:31, Israel's ultimate borders.
Isa 40:17, God does not care for the nations (that is, your country be it the UK, Slovakia, Nauru, Cuba, or What-have-you.)
Isa 41...the whole chapter. Pay special attention to Isa 41:8-16.
Isa 50:1, God is not finished with Israel nor did He divorce her.
Isa 54:17, a remarkable prophecy proven time & again over the centuries.

So...be careful what you say about Israel. Search your heart and determine your motives. You will have to answer to God for every word spoken carelessly (Mt 12:36).

FL

I only saw veiled anti-semitism on the part of one person; he's a non-believer anyway so it is to be expected.

I'm not speaking for anyone but this criteria, of assuming people's motivations, just because they are unbelievers, is wrong.

Ge 35:12 and Jos 1:4, God's promise of the land of Israel.
Ex 23:31, Israel's ultimate borders.
Isa 40:17, God does not care for the nations (that is, your country be it the UK, Slovakia, Nauru, Cuba, or What-have-you.)
Isa 41...the whole chapter. Pay special attention to Isa 41:8-16.
Isa 50:1, God is not finished with Israel nor did He divorce her.
Isa 54:17, a remarkable prophecy proven time & again over the centuries.

Only one sin is unpardonable...you know that, don't you?

Isa 40:17, God does not care for the nations (that is, your country be it the UK, Slovakia, Nauru, Cuba, or What-have-you.)

Oh, my! do you even know what you are saying? whatever happened to "For God so loved the world"...forgot it?

This is just another form of "Jew pride". The same as O.T Jews had and N.T Pharisees in the time of Jesus. "We are children of Abraham" this is what they told him and he replied, "And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham." And as far as I can remember this is also written in the same Bible.

Why don't you go ahead and paste verses that say that God has not indeed chosen Israel alone to be special. They are no more special than you and me.

Jews: people who descended from Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, these may or may not have faith. Also, followers of Judaism by birth or those adopted into the faith, as well as those who adopted the faith.

As I said before, your definition of Jew is indeed far from biblical, to God not every Jew who is a born Jew, is a true Jew. There is no way to God except Christ. Jews don't get a free pass on anything, no one does.

You so flatly avoided my points by saying "who claimed that" and something like that. While you on the other hand are making the same underlying assumptions I pointed out. You can't deny it. Either God is directing Israel Govt. or he isn't. Yet you avoided the question. If God is not behind that Govt. then why are you so worried about it? I mean if God is not behind them, then why are you? On the contrary if you think he is behind them, then why avoid the question, just admit it. You can't have both things at the same time. If you make a claim you have to accept the logical consequences.

neo-x wrote:

I only saw veiled anti-semitism on the part of one person; he's a non-believer anyway so it is to be expected.

I'm not speaking for anyone but this criteria, of assuming people's motivations, just because they are unbelievers, is wrong.

You seem to be jumping to conclusions here. I'm not assuming a non-believer's motivations. I am saying that an unbeliever is hostile to God (Ro 8:7 and Jas 4:4) so it doesn't surprise me that unbelievers would be anti-semites.

neo-x wrote:Only one sin is unpardonable...you know that, don't you?

What does this have to do with what we're talking about?

neo-x wrote:

Isa 40:17, God does not care for the nations (that is, your country be it the UK, Slovakia, Nauru, Cuba, or What-have-you.)

Oh, my! do you even know what you are saying? whatever happened to "For God so loved the world"...forgot it?

Yes, I know what I'm saying. God does not care about your country, your nation, your national jurisdiction, unless you live in Israel. How can I be clearer? When God says ''For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,'' why are you assuming that He is speaking of political entities? Are you a British-Israelist?

neo-x wrote:As I said before, your definition of Jew is indeed far from biblical, to God not every Jew who is a born Jew, is a true Jew. There is no way to God except Christ. Jews don't get a free pass on anything, no one does.

Are you a British-Israelist? Do you feel you are Jewish because the ''10 Lost Tribes'' colonized Europe, which then colonized the Engish-speaking world? Do you believe the English-speaking peoples of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa and the USA are Jews?

What is your definition of ''Jew''?

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
What is wrong here? Why are Christians doing and saying such things? Here is just a little bit of what your Bible says about Israel:

Ge 35:12 and Jos 1:4, God's promise of the land of Israel.
Ex 23:31, Israel's ultimate borders.

Yes.. Agreed and Genesis 15:18-21. And these covenants are still in play today. How long? According to scripture... Forever. Deuteronomy 4:40, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, 1 Chronicles 23:25, Jeremiah 31:35-37, Joshua 14:9, Psalm 105:9-11

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Isa 40:17, God does not care for the nations (that is, your country be it the UK, Slovakia, Nauru, Cuba, or What-have-you.)

Hmmm.. I wouldn't go that far. It starts with Israel then circulates to the rest of the world however.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Isa 41...the whole chapter. Pay special attention to Isa 41:8-16.
Isa 50:1, God is not finished with Israel nor did He divorce her.

Yup...

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Isa 54:17, a remarkable prophecy proven time & again over the centuries.

So...be careful what you say about Israel. Search your heart and determine your motives. You will have to answer to God for every word spoken carelessly (Mt 12:36).

FL

Good point FL.. We will need to wake up a little here.. Not to say that everything Israel does is of G-d, but one day it will transform into Biblical Zionism. When? Fill in the blanks...

Gman wrote:We will need to wake up a little here.. Not to say that everything Israel does is of G-d, but one day it will transform into Biblical Zionism. When? Fill in the blanks...

In this discussion, I think we have made the point that many Christians sin through anti-semitism. In most cases, they justify their anti-semitic sentiment by claiming it is directed against the nation of Israel, not against Jews as such. How hollow can they go?!

It is unfortunate that some - most? - Christians seem to have been infected with some form of Replacement Theology, either in the form of Catholicism (Roman & Anglican) or one of the many Protestant denominations that think the Church has replaced national Israel...not to mention the perversion of British-Israelism.

''God reveals Himself to the world through events in Israel...It is no accident that the litmus test in this world for morality, truth and faith is the attitude towards Israel.''
-Rabbi Eliezer Melamed

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Gman wrote:We will need to wake up a little here.. Not to say that everything Israel does is of G-d, but one day it will transform into Biblical Zionism. When? Fill in the blanks...

In this discussion, I think we have made the point that many Christians sin through anti-semitism. In most cases, they justify their anti-semitic sentiment by claiming it is directed against the nation of Israel, not against Jews as such. How hollow can they go?!

It is unfortunate that some - most? - Christians seem to have been infected with some form of Replacement Theology, either in the form of Catholicism (Roman & Anglican) or one of the many Protestant denominations that think the Church has replaced national Israel...not to mention the perversion of British-Israelism.

''God reveals Himself to the world through events in Israel...It is no accident that the litmus test in this world for morality, truth and faith is the attitude towards Israel.''
-Rabbi Eliezer Melamed

FL

FL, you love to stir the pot, don't you? What's wrong, you didn't get enough attention, as a child?

Stop getting Gman all riled up, YOU INSTIGATOR!!!!!

RickD wrote: FL, you love to stir the pot, don't you? What's wrong, you didn't get enough attention, as a child?

Stop getting Gman all riled up, YOU INSTIGATOR!!!!!

Yeah... Stop getting me all riled up..

So, now the truth is revealed. We know what the G in Gman stands for. Green. As in, the big green man. Don't make Gman angry. You won't like him when he's angry.

RickD wrote:So, now the truth is revealed. We know what the G in Gman stands for. Green. As in, the big green man. Don't make Gman angry. You won't like him when he's angry.

Oh that's nothing.. You should have seen when I took on "The Red". It was such a big event that they even wrote a book about it.



Your's today for just $18.98 on amazon.. **Plug**

//www.amazon.com/G-man-Vs-The-Red-X/dp/B000AS1SMG

He's a little TOO libertarian for my liking, and doesn't hold too true to the Christian ideal of supporting those who need help (the elderly, jobless, etc) through a social welfare system -- though that could be my very, very cosmetic evaluation. Otherwise, I like him. He's got a steady record, is honest and extremely clear about his goals. No nonsense attitude.

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:He's a little TOO libertarian for my liking, and doesn't hold too true to the Christian ideal of supporting those who need help (the elderly, jobless, etc) through a social welfare system -- though that could be my very, very cosmetic evaluation. Otherwise, I like him. He's got a steady record, is honest and extremely clear about his goals. No nonsense attitude.

Hi, StMonica. It's good to see you back. . I'm not sure I agree that the Christian ideal, is for the govt to support those who need help. I believe that is the duty of individuals, and the church, not the govt. And, while Paul is strongly libertarian, I think you'd find that he certainly agrees that people should help those who need it.

RickD wrote:

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:He's a little TOO libertarian for my liking, and doesn't hold too true to the Christian ideal of supporting those who need help (the elderly, jobless, etc) through a social welfare system -- though that could be my very, very cosmetic evaluation. Otherwise, I like him. He's got a steady record, is honest and extremely clear about his goals. No nonsense attitude.

Hi, StMonica. It's good to see you back. . I'm not sure I agree that the Christian ideal, is for the govt to support those who need help. I believe that is the duty of individuals, and the church, not the govt. And, while Paul is strongly libertarian, I think you'd find that he certainly agrees that people should help those who need it.

Also we need to change the foreign policy to not be the policemen of the world. That is the one reason he shines above the others, he desperately wants to change it to non interventionism. Although it is true an affirmative decision should be made for genocides. Also we need to change the fact that we are the policemen of the world only when it helps secure our influence and interests.