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Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:12 pm
by Beanybag
I'll try and get back to it then.
Byblos wrote:I do get it when atheists complain about suffering and why there seems to be so much of it. At least they think there is too much, as opposed to the theist who can argue that it can always be worse. Here's the kicker though Paul, on an atheistic worldview what exactly does suffering mean? Is it only human suffering that counts? What about animal suffering, does that even factor into the equation? And if it does, how about the suffering of any living thing, including bacteria, microbes, even plants? Where does one draw the line as to what constitutes suffering and what doesn't? If God decided to end all human suffering today (in a fallen world I'm not entirely certain how that's doable but I'll indulge for a moment) but let's assume that He did do it. Do you really think for a second that atheists will be satisfied with that? Not in the least for they will most certainly drudge up animal suffering, then plant suffering, then sedimentary rock suffering. They are blinded to the truth if it opened their eyelids and shone a laser beam right through their retina. If eyewitnesses to the resurrection continued to not believe what hope do we have for the modern skeptic to do so? There is always a chance but it is tiny.
I care about the suffering of sentient beings - this is why I am a vegetarian. I can't bear to see intelligent animals like cows, pigs, chickens, and of course humans, etc. to suffer. Bacteria, plants, microbes, as far as I know do not feel suffering. It could be that I am wrong and am ignorant, but at the time being, pain and suffering seem to be related to higher functioning nervous systems. Anything that would feel suffering outside of those things we don't really understand.

And, as an atheist, I've never been impressed with the problem of evil. I do think the test of this world and the allowing of free will is a sufficient response - this life is supposed to be temporary anyway, yes? I will admit, dealing with a skeptic (such as myself) can be difficult and frustrating. I only hope that whichever god is really out there (Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu) that my good works alone are enough to redeem myself. Only time will tell. :]

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:25 pm
by PaulSacramento
Beanybag wrote:I'll try and get back to it then.
Byblos wrote:I do get it when atheists complain about suffering and why there seems to be so much of it. At least they think there is too much, as opposed to the theist who can argue that it can always be worse. Here's the kicker though Paul, on an atheistic worldview what exactly does suffering mean? Is it only human suffering that counts? What about animal suffering, does that even factor into the equation? And if it does, how about the suffering of any living thing, including bacteria, microbes, even plants? Where does one draw the line as to what constitutes suffering and what doesn't? If God decided to end all human suffering today (in a fallen world I'm not entirely certain how that's doable but I'll indulge for a moment) but let's assume that He did do it. Do you really think for a second that atheists will be satisfied with that? Not in the least for they will most certainly drudge up animal suffering, then plant suffering, then sedimentary rock suffering. They are blinded to the truth if it opened their eyelids and shone a laser beam right through their retina. If eyewitnesses to the resurrection continued to not believe what hope do we have for the modern skeptic to do so? There is always a chance but it is tiny.
I care about the suffering of sentient beings - this is why I am a vegetarian. I can't bear to see intelligent animals like cows, pigs, chickens, and of course humans, etc. to suffer. Bacteria, plants, microbes, as far as I know do not feel suffering. It could be that I am wrong and am ignorant, but at the time being, pain and suffering seem to be related to higher functioning nervous systems. Anything that would feel suffering outside of those things we don't really understand.

And, as an atheist, I've never been impressed with the problem of evil. I do think the test of this world and the allowing of free will is a sufficient response - this life is supposed to be temporary anyway, yes? I will admit, dealing with a skeptic (such as myself) can be difficult and frustrating. I only hope that whichever god is really out there (Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu) that my good works alone are enough to redeem myself. Only time will tell. :]
Why do you care?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:27 pm
by Beanybag
PaulSacramento wrote:Why do you care?
Because I do, naturally. :]

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:41 pm
by Byblos
Beanybag wrote:I'll try and get back to it then.
Byblos wrote:I do get it when atheists complain about suffering and why there seems to be so much of it. At least they think there is too much, as opposed to the theist who can argue that it can always be worse. Here's the kicker though Paul, on an atheistic worldview what exactly does suffering mean? Is it only human suffering that counts? What about animal suffering, does that even factor into the equation? And if it does, how about the suffering of any living thing, including bacteria, microbes, even plants? Where does one draw the line as to what constitutes suffering and what doesn't? If God decided to end all human suffering today (in a fallen world I'm not entirely certain how that's doable but I'll indulge for a moment) but let's assume that He did do it. Do you really think for a second that atheists will be satisfied with that? Not in the least for they will most certainly drudge up animal suffering, then plant suffering, then sedimentary rock suffering. They are blinded to the truth if it opened their eyelids and shone a laser beam right through their retina. If eyewitnesses to the resurrection continued to not believe what hope do we have for the modern skeptic to do so? There is always a chance but it is tiny.
I care about the suffering of sentient beings - this is why I am a vegetarian. I can't bear to see intelligent animals like cows, pigs, chickens, and of course humans, etc. to suffer. Bacteria, plants, microbes, as far as I know do not feel suffering. It could be that I am wrong and am ignorant, but at the time being, pain and suffering seem to be related to higher functioning nervous systems. Anything that would feel suffering outside of those things we don't really understand.

And, as an atheist, I've never been impressed with the problem of evil. I do think the test of this world and the allowing of free will is a sufficient response - this life is supposed to be temporary anyway, yes? I will admit, dealing with a skeptic (such as myself) can be difficult and frustrating. I only hope that whichever god is really out there (Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu) that my good works alone are enough to redeem myself. Only time will tell. :]
Don't you find it a bit hypocritical of you to discriminate against non-sentient living things? How can you even be so sure that they are non-sentient? Science? Meh, science can discover tomorrow some new protein in plants that acts like a central nervous system and allows them to 'feel' pain. But let's go back to sentient beings for a moment, what animal orders do you consider sentient? I presume the usual zoo animals, rights? Does that include snakes? How about vermin? Okay how about ants, gnats, and all other little critters and creatures? Is it okay by you to step on an ant and crush it, albeit inadvertently? If not, then you must take great care walking in parks and the wilderness for I submit to you that you've killed countless of mother earth's little sentient beings. And so and and so forth, ad absurdium.

The bottom line is you live by a borrowed and modified moral code all the while denying the original moral code giver that gave it to you in the first place. Most atheists know deep down we ought to live by a certain code, it's just that they're too afraid to take it to its logical conclusion so it gets masked with all kinds of absurdities.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:49 pm
by Beanybag
Byblos wrote:Don't you find it a bit hypocritical of you to discriminate against non-sentient living things? How can you even be so sure that they are non-sentient? Science? Meh, science can discover tomorrow some new protein in plants that acts like a central nervous system and allows them to 'feel' pain.
I can only act on the knowledge I have - my moral culpability directly lies within the realm of my knowledge.
But let's go back to sentient beings for a moment, what animal orders do you consider sentient? I presume the usual zoo animals, rights? Does that include snakes? How about vermin? Okay how about ants, gnats, and all other little critters and creatures? Is it okay by you to step on an ant and crush it, albeit inadvertently? If not, then you must take great care walking in parks and the wilderness for I submit to you that you've killed countless of mother earth's little sentient beings. And so and and so forth, ad absurdium.
I consider sentience on a continuum (possibly a multidimensional continuum, variables pending). An ant is thereby much less sentient and has a much smaller capacity to suffer. Notice I do not judge based on intelligence but capacity to suffer. This does not mean I find a mentally challenged person less morally considerable than an able person - they both have similar capacity to suffer. It does mean that I value a human over an ant, though.
The bottom line is you live by a borrowed and modified moral code all the while denying the original moral code giver that gave it to in the first place.
The bottom line is that I have yet to be persuaded by this argument, I'm sorry. I don't have the ability to choose my beliefs, I can only believe in what I find sufficiently convincing. I can only hope that is enough. I hope that answers your questions. :]

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:12 pm
by Byblos
Beanybag wrote:
Byblos wrote:Don't you find it a bit hypocritical of you to discriminate against non-sentient living things? How can you even be so sure that they are non-sentient? Science? Meh, science can discover tomorrow some new protein in plants that acts like a central nervous system and allows them to 'feel' pain.
I can only act on the knowledge I have - my moral culpability directly lies within the realm of my knowledge.
By that argument then the less knowledgeable ought to be treated on a different moral scale than the more knowledgeable. And who decides? That's the problem with such ideology, everything is left open for interpretation and therefore merely an opinion, totally subjective.
Beanybag wrote:
But let's go back to sentient beings for a moment, what animal orders do you consider sentient? I presume the usual zoo animals, rights? Does that include snakes? How about vermin? Okay how about ants, gnats, and all other little critters and creatures? Is it okay by you to step on an ant and crush it, albeit inadvertently? If not, then you must take great care walking in parks and the wilderness for I submit to you that you've killed countless of mother earth's little sentient beings. And so and and so forth, ad absurdium.
I consider sentience on a continuum (possibly a multidimensional continuum, variables pending). An ant is thereby much less sentient and has a much smaller capacity to suffer. Notice I do not judge based on intelligence but capacity to suffer. This does not mean I find a mentally challenged person less morally considerable than an able person - they both have similar capacity to suffer. It does mean that I value a human over an ant, though.
But that's only your opinion and admittedly limited to the current knowledge base you possess at the time. Surely you can see the absurdity of such a goal-shifting moral system, right? I mean how can you even be consistent in teaching it your own kids, never mind passing it down generations.
The bottom line is you live by a borrowed and modified moral code all the while denying the original moral code giver that gave it to in the first place.
Beanybag wrote:The bottom line is that I have yet to be persuaded by this argument, I'm sorry. I don't have the ability to choose my beliefs, I can only believe in what I find sufficiently convincing. I can only hope that is enough. I hope that answers your questions. :]
Like I said, when taken to its logical conclusion there simply is no escaping the fact that morality is inherently objective. Whether or not you're persuaded by it no less diminishes the veracity of the point.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:23 pm
by Zionist
@ Mag
first i would like to extend a welcome to the forums and say hello. im not going to sit here and get into a long discussion with you, but i would like to present some things that hopefully you'll reflect and meditate upon. (Yes i will use bible verses so bear with me on this) I feel that although you have already made up your mind as to what you feel or believe God is stretching His hand out to reach you as stated in 2Peter 3:9. Yes, believe it or not God has been trying to reach you all your life because he wishes that none should perish. i understand you have some hangups and lots of doubts about His existence but dig down deep within and be honest with yourself because like you we all have questioned but are you willing to truly seek the truth? Matthew 7:7-8 if you truly want to know God will reveal to you as anyone here can testify to and unlike the stereotype that we believers follow a blind faith, while some may the true believers i assure you have read and put to the test the scriptures as is written 1Thessalonians 5:21 and Proverbs 30:5-6. God doesn't want blind believers he wants us to test the scriptures so that way we can come to the truth individually and if you truly want to learn He'll guide you. Like all of us i'm sure you feel there is more to life than you possibly know or can understand and many things that science can not explain. Despite what anyone says we all put our faith in something whether we admit it or not but will it stand? 1Peter 1:5-9 putting your faith in something that you can't see is not as far fetched as you may think; actually, we put faith into many things we cannot see like the air we breathe, the CO2 we exhale, love, ect. God is the same way my friend and although you may not be able to see Him He has revealed Himself through all of His creation. Romans 1:20-23 all things point to Him and if you are ready to seek the truth it will be revealed to you as there are so many things that point to the legitimacy of the Bible if you take the time to truly seek it will be shown to you. May God bless you and guide you.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:11 pm
by MAGSolo
neo-x wrote:
No, why do I need to concede this. Look at this picture again. Where is the love in this? How can you reasonably say God loves us and yet he permits stuff like this to occur? Im looking for a serious answer, either God has the power to prevent this kind of suffering or he doesnt. If he has the power to prevent it and doesnt then he allows it and allowing this is not love.
Mag, I think you did not get perhaps what I asked you. And on that note, I do not think I'm kidding with you either.

First you have to concede that point because you cant have it both ways. It nullifies the law of non-contradiction. Two statements can not be true at the same time while also being in direct opposition to each other. God is good, God is not God, can not be both true at the same time, can it now?

And that is why I asked you, if God doesn't stop evil or allows it? why does he allow Goodness as well? (there is happiness and goodness in the world) you still have to answer that, pasting that picture over and over is not an answer Mag.

let me riddle you with the exact opposite of what you're saying and perhaps then you may realize what I am trying to say...I can post 100 images (Im not going to but just imagine) of happy people, people helping each other, wiping the tears of an orphan, etc etc. and then say

"Either God allows goodness or he doesn't, and since there is so much goodness around therefore God is good and he exists."

What would be your objections to this, If your argument carries truth, so does mine. Goodness is all around us too if you but only notice. Let me know what you find wrong with my statement, how will you refute it?
I dont believe God is responsible for good or evil. I think he just doesnt exist. Let me explain what I mean. If a bear or a lion or a shark happens to kill a human being, this is a bad thing, an example of human suffering, but God did not make the bear, lion, or shark kill the human, its just something those animals do. Likewise if a human happens to be close to a bear, lion, or shark and it doesnt attack the human it is not because of God either, its just that the lion, bear, or shark wasnt in a killing mood at that particular time. We would see it as good that the animal didnt kill the human, but its not goodness that comes from God and its not badness or evil that comes from God. Likewise when humans do good things or bad things, God has nothing to do with it. Humans have the capacity to do good or to not do good, just like bears, lions, and sharks have the capacity to kill humans or not kill humans. A human killing a human is no more from God than a bear killing a human and a human doing good towards another human is no more from God than a bear not killing a human.


You said
"I think the capacity to do good and evil are just human characteristics. I dont attribute evil to God, I just think the pervasiveness of evil is proof that God doesnt exist, or is indifferent to human suffering."
Do you realize you just shot your argument squarely in the head? (no pun intended)
When saying human beings are good and evil, you just answered your own dilemma. I would then ask you, why is it that some are good and some are bad?
It could be any number of factors. Environment one was raised in, mental health, overall health, education, any number of factors could come into to play in determining why some people are good and some are not.

I also asked you whether there was any good in the world and if so, why do you think that is? It seems to me that even a single act of "evil" in your opinion is valid enough for you to think that either God doesn't love us or he doesn't exists. While all acts of compassion and mercy can not be attributed to God at all.
I think there is plenty of good in the world and plenty of good people. I also think there are good dogs and bad dogs. There are dogs who are prone to attack people and many small children are hurt and killed every year by dogs but God is not responsible for these dogs attacking children and he is not responsible when dogs are loving and well behaved. Dogs have the capacity to hurt and kill and they have the capacity to be great companions and different factors determine what side of the coin a dog ends up on and it has nothing to do with God. Likewise humans have the capacity to hurt and kill people and we have the capacity to be kind to each other and do good and different factors determine what side of the coin we end up on and I would say this too has little to do with God. I do believe that a truly good and powerful God would do anything in his power to prevent unnecessary suffering and the fact that there is so much suffering and evil is evidence that there is either no God or he is either not all powerful or not "good" in any way that a reasonable human would define goodness.

I'm quite well aware of the excerpts you posted about cruel people, I can perhaps add to the list a few people as well, I appreciate your effort nonetheless.

Why goodness matters? is a good question. For example, Hitler's extermination of the non-Aryan race was in his eyes a good deed. Did you think Stalin wept for millions of people that he had killed, tortured? To these people what they did was good and therefore something which should be perused by others as well. This is why I asked you, what is good and why does it matter in a Godless world? Do you even realize that without a "God" the concept of good and evil is plain arbitrary. You can argue, hurting someone is bad or starving someone is bad but mind you this is not as plain and simple as it sounds. Some people would disagree with you, perhaps the people on the list you posted are likely to deny this. And you can cry out "foul" and you would be rightly doing so and yet what you hold as good or evil, is nothing more than your personal take on the matter. and if there is no higher authority which one is subjected to then what makes you think that your opinion is the only one which matters, why not Hitler's opinion matter? Isn't he doing the same thing. Doing what he thinks is right and justifying the consequences thereof. Whats to prove him wrong? That millions die? he will say that the millions of Germans in the coming years will prosper. You can say that starving someone is wrong, but he may tell you that he will use the same bread to feed a German kid rather than a Jew. So giving bread to a Jew in his eyes, evil and feeding the German kid is a good thing.

I personally respect all life on this Earth. I try not to even kill bugs in my house if I can seriously avoid it. To me it doesnt matter what Hitler or any other person who does bad things might think about the matter. Daily I read about people who take the lives of others over the most trivial of things. Human lives taken over 40 and 50 dollars. I often wonder how human life can have so little value to some people. So all I can say is that goodness matters to me and my opinion is what matters to me.

I am sure you do not agree with the notion, neither do I but can you actually prove that this is wrong? Your objectivity has to have its roots. Without an objective standard of Good i.e God, there is no such thing as goodness or evil, they are at best, matters of perspective.
Who says that God is the objective standard of goodness. By my standard anyone who has the power to prevent suffering and evil and doesnt is not good. There are examples in the bible where God called upon the Israelites to slay entire nations down to the children. There are other times when he said that women left alive to be used as they pleased. Maybe when you get your notions of what is good and bad from a book written by goat herders 3000 years ago, you dont see these things as a big deal. But what specifically makes God so good?

What do you think "death" is to God? when we die, do we feel pain, sometimes yes, sometimes no. You seem to be applying anthropomorphism and asking if God can feel our pain and he doesn't do anything, he is not loving. Or God is very loving but because of all this pain and suffering, there is no doubt that such a God could exist and be not dealing with the problems that we have, thus he doesn't exist.

But what you are missing is that you have created a false dichotomy. IF this is wrong, then else must be right. Try things from the other side, lets assume you are God. You look down and you see man's corruption. You see the evil there is, what do you do?

1. You can wipe out all humanity (as you earlier suggested) but this means you are not Just
So God was not just when he wiped out all but a literal handful of people during the flood?
2. You can save them but in the process it takes time because God won't force his will on humans too. This way everyone reaps what they sow, some people even recover and realize that they did wrong, but this seems more loving than killing everyone. In this way you are loving as well as just.
Me personally, I would kill every person who sought to do harm to another human being on the spot.

You have to grasp that to God all of this is not a game at all.
It seems very much like a game to me. God creates Adam and Eve, creates a tree with fruit on it and tells adam and eve not to eat from it knowing they will do it anyway and then punishes them severly when they do the thing he already knew they would do from the start
God is not merely out to eliminate evil, he also wants to rescue mankind from the fallen state.
What is the fallen state? What does that mean and why does God want to rescue mankind from it?
Can God make everything alright with the twitch of his pinky? sure he can. but that would only satisfy one thing, lack of responsibility. Its like the six year old Kid who lost a snake ladder game and went on to tear the board apart.

You will not kill your child if he killed a dog? would you? the dog suffered at the hands of your 8 year old kid. Do you think that merits termination because he failed a standard held by others, on some accounts yes, on some accounts no, most serial killers start in life with cruelty against animals. Does this mean that a child killing an animal is beyond hope, lost that he should not be even clarified on the consequences of his actions or made to see what was wrong or perhaps more to be punished for his mistake. The punishment would be just but from a parent it would also be an act of love. Killing the child wont solve the problem.
Some people dont deserve that benefit of the doubt. Some people are simply evil and dont deserve to live imo. At the point where you just start hurting and killing people intentionally, I dont personally believe you are worthy of redemption or forgiveness and you deserve to simply die

And Should not God use more wisdom than this if he created all life? The fallen humanity deserves a chance.
Again you will have to explain what "fallen humanity is" and I do believe there are some things people should be forgiven for and given a second chance but I also think there is a line people cross where they no longer deserve a chance. For instance I dont think a person who robs or steals is beyond redemption, but when you get to the point where you start physically hurting people and taking lives, then to me you do not deserve a chance.
There are those who abuse this grace of God and kill, torture others. If God merely wipes out everyone to get rid of these few, would it be a fair judgement? I do not think so, regardless of what you say. It won't be just. God must be just as he must be loving.
So during the flood do you think that Noah and his family were literally the only good people on the entire planet? On all of Earth there were only about 7 good people? Do you really believe that? At any rate I do agree that God shouldnt wipe everyone out but why cant he simply destroy the truly evil people.?
I am detecting more disdain of suffering from you than a logical construct of your argument. May be you have suffered or perhaps watched someone suffered and have seen the ugly side but in all earnestness I think your solution is more out of hate of pain rather than anything else. Everything is backed up by emotional appeal. I suggested before that this is a fallacy and can ruin any good and sound healthy reasoning on both sides.
I didnt mean God should really wipe out all humanity. I meant he should do anything necessary not excluding wiping out humanity. And I dont necessarily see wiping out humanity as a bad thing because it would just mean the good people would go to heaven and whatever happens to bad people would happen.

In fact, if you look at it, your solution is no more different than Hitler's, its only a derivation at best. You consider evil and suffering to be a problem, you like wise suggest that God could have never made us or he should wipe all out to end evil. Hitler considered Jews to be the problem of that was wrong with Germany so he came up with the "the final solution of the Jews" and therefore decided to eliminate everyone to get rid of the problem.
God has done it before so its clearly not unprecedented. According to the bible there was a time when humans were so terrible that God figured it was best to wipe them out and start over

Please do not mind this, as I am just pointing out what seems apparent and common enough to merit such a comparison. My intent is merely to understand what you are saying and perhaps make you realize that while your premise is valid, the conclusion is not. It is very easy to think of ending problems in our mind and then project it on God without calculating the broader scope. This will lead your discussion nowhere.

As a matter of fact, I am going to push the argument a bit more further, just for the sake of the argument If all life has value, then eating an apple from a tree is equal to killing a child. I mean after all, all living things indeed have value. Killing one life (be it a harmless apple) just because it is not human life is also a cruel way. wouldn't you agree? You may not feel the pain or suffering a plant may feel. You may even say they do not have any conscience so they can not feel pain, but you do understand that they have life, its just different than ours.
No I wouldnt agree with that at all. Fruit was made to be eaten. If we could not eat plants or animals then we could not sustain ourselves. Please dont waste my time with completely absurd arguments just for the sake of argument or to make some ridiculous point.

The question is not of pain here but the value of Life. It is too much precious to be eternally condemned because of some people who chose to abuse God's creation. And they will be held responsible, as a matter of fact I think that is the only and the most just outcome, a God can offer. To claim otherwise, IMHO is a logical absurdity.
To me all life is not precious. The lives of evil people are not precious. Are you going to argue that the lives of evil people are precious to God while children die of starvation? Evil people should be spared because their lives are precious to God but he does not care enough to stop them from taking the lives of other?

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:46 pm
by MAGSolo
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
How can you possibly claim to know what every individual on earth does all the time?
Because that is the nature of man.
Why is that our nature?
I didnt say God does it, I asked why he doesnt do something about it. So why doesnt he?
Because it interfer's with freewill.
So what? why does that matter?
I see no evidence that God is just. If its all about the next life than why should we not all just kill ourselves and hurry and get to heaven. Why bother with this life at all?
Because we are here to learn, and murder is sinful, even if it is to yourself.
What are we here to learn?
Plenty of people are good. Anyone who does not harm or take from other people is good. Anybody who treats others well is good.
Again by whose standard do you say they are good, your own?
Whose standard should I use? Those of ancient goat shepards?
I quoted what you said so obviously you didnt say complex maths.
You must have quoted while I was editing a mistake, I don't normally expect replies so quick so I post then proof read then edit.
My bad, but I did say complex.
Perhaps it is the work of a different God other than the Christian God. How do you know the biblical God is the one responsible?
Not in my opinion.
And what is your opinion based on?
God was not with us he was with adam and eve. Also God cannot be perfect because he creates imperfect things? How can a perfect being create things that are not perfect?
When I say us I mean Human kind which includes Adam and Eve.
God was now with Human kind, he was with adam and eve
Why should a perfect God make perfect things? please explain in more detail.
Why should a perfect God make imperfect things. How does someone that is perfect do something that is not perfect?
I never said that
:doh:
Prehaps I should reword it..it is a question, not a statement.
Do you mean because we are mortals we are excused from rape,murder, genocide, etc... etc... and because God is God he is accountable?
What exactly did I say to make you think thats what I may have meant?
God never told them not to try to be like him. He told them not to eat the fruit. He didnt say "dont try to be like me" he said "dont eat this fruit or you will die"
The fruit was symbolic for the knowledge of good and evil, they thought they could have knowledge like God to be like God.
Whats wrong with wanting knowledge to be like God? God never told them not to try to be like him, he told them not to eat the fruit
There are no records of this crucifixion anywhere except in the bible. Its likely a made up story.
Not true. The historical account of Josephus etc.. http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-evidence-for-jesus
Okay, considering the possibility he did exist, that doesnt prove he was God or the son of God or sent by God
A piece of cloth is not sufficient evidence that Jesus existed and even if it was, its not evidence at all that Jesus is God or that God exists.
I am not saying just a pice of cloth, it is only one part of a multitude of evidence, I particulary find the hirtorical Jesus compelling.
what multitude of evidence? and if he did exist how do you know he was God?
So are you saying it wasnt a literal tree with fruit on it?
No idea, I wasn't there but some people think so, some do not. Does it really matter?
I think it matters a great deal. If there was no literal tree with no literal fruit then what act of disobedience did Adam and Eve commit to cause God to punish and curse them?
No we dont all need salvation. There is no such thing as salvation. Its all make believe
Then why be here arguing with me, after all I am just dancing to the random chemical reactions in my brain.
Debate is good for the mind
I asked if you would curse your children for disobeying you. I didnt ask if you would punish them, I asked if you would curse them?
What you keep failing to realise is that the disobedience has not stopped and hence the punishment continues.
That still doesnt answer the question I asked you.
So what is the punishment?
The wages of sin are death.
So why do those who have never sinned die if death is a punishment for sin?
How can you do what God requires of you when he doesnt exist? If God existed and required something from us he would come out and tell us himself.
Only according to you he doesn't exist, God has told us what he requires to the Israelites through the prophets in the Old Testament and to us through Jesus Christ.
when did God speak to us through Jesus Christ? Were you there?
Well as you have admitted that you arent a very good person yourself, its likely the people you know simply arent very good either. Birds of a feather and all that. The vast majority of the people I know are very good people.
You seem to have tabs on yourself, yet with your sentence you have just proved your not a nice person by insulting me and the people I hang out with. :shakehead:
Well you admitted you werent a good person, how does that make me not a nice person? How is that insulting you if you have already admitted it?
So who goes to heaven; an evil person who does evil deed, lies, murders, cheats, steals, treats people poorly and then right before they die they say the believe in God and accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior or the person who doesnt do any of those things, treats people well but doesnt believe in God? Why is belief in an invisible person that has never shown themself more important than the manner in which we conduct ourselves?
Wrong again, God has shown himself through Jesus.
When did you see Jesus?

Anyone can go to heaven, we have ALL fallen short and sinned and everyone has a chace at redemption.
God does not see one sin is greater than the other, all is sin and worthy of punishment.
If anyone can go to heaven, whats the point in anyone every being good?

I dont believe in God, whats your excuse?
If you don't believe in God then why ask?
That question doesnt make any sense at all. I said im not going to sell all of my possession and give them to the poor because I dont believe in God. You do believe in God so what is your excuse?
So let me get this straight, you want to hold God accountable but you don't think he exists, You don't want the human race to be a part of the solution but expect an imaginary ( according to you) God to fix the issue. y:-?
WHAT!!!
No I dont hold God accountable, I just think he doesnt exist.

I used to be a believer
How can you know who Jesus is then un-know him?
Please explain how you can un-know someone.

I thought I knew him but I guess I never did.
God supposedly made humans and he knows everything, so why would he make humans knowing that they would make the world such a horrible place.
Because he loves us.
How do you know he loves us? Because the bible told you so?
I come here looking for serious answers as to why a good and all powerful God allows suffering of innocent people. Well sometimes the simplest answer is the best one. Suffering and evil is everywhere all the time because God doesnt exist. One cannot be good and all powerful and allow suffering and evil. Any being that had the power to prevent suffering and evil and was good would do so, the fact that suffering and evil persists proves that God does not exist or if he does, he is either not good or not all powerful. You cannot be good and allpowerful and allow suffering and evil that you could prevent, it is an oxymoron.
I am sorry you feel that way and I will pray for you.

Dan
God doesnt hear or answer prayer because he doesnt exist. You could pray to the sun or a rock and get the exact same 50/50 outcome as you get from praying to God. Try it sometime.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:03 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Sorry Magsolo

I am not going to reply to you as we are just covering the same ground over and over and over.

You don't believe God exists, that is fine, I doubt anyone will convince you as you seem pretty firm in your belief.

The only thing I want to say is that there is plenty of websites with enormous amounts of evidence for all aspects of belief including intellectual, historical, philosophical etc... etc...
Study the evidence and make up your mind from there because as I can see from your questions you understand very little about Christian beliefs and the reasons why we believe.


Dan

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:24 pm
by MAGSolo
You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in. Thanks for your efforts though.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:27 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
MAGSolo wrote:You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

I have only became a believer in the last few years, through many years of study and research prior to that.

Before I was a militant atheist.
EDIT and at times agnostic

You know nothing of me, keep your presumptions to yourself and you wont wind up with egg on your face.


Dan

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 7:44 pm
by inlovewiththe44
Mag,

Has anyone else asked you why you're here? Because if you're so firm in your beliefs and don't want to participate in civil and researched discourse, then you might want to reconsider your choice in forums. Although I, and I'm sure other members, would like you to stay, it would benefit both us and you if you entered in discussion with an open, although of course opinionated, mind. I'm not trying to blast you or anything, but I want you to honestly make the most of your time spent browsing through and posting on this discussion board.

Rachel

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:53 pm
by MAGSolo
I came here to discuss the questions I asked in the OP. Did you read it? Where have I not been civil? And how do you know I dont have an open mind? I simply dont find the arguments presented very compelling. If I tried to convince you of the merits of child pornography the fact that I cant convince you doesnt mean you arent open minded. Maybe my arguments in espousing the values of child pornography just arent very good and maybe thats because there likely arent any good compelling arguments on the merits of child pornography. Why is it that whenever someone doesnt agree with Christian arguments, it automatically means they are not open-minded? Can you please explain that to me. I think I have gone through great effort to respond to everyone and explain why I remain unconvinced.

My main question again:
How can God be good and all powerful and yet allow suffering of innocent people and allow evil people to hurt and kill others? Do you think that is an unreasonable question. If you saw a grown man that was big and strong watching a small child being choked to death and not acting, what would you think of that man? Would you consider him a good man worthy of praise? Can you tell me why you personally think a God that allows suffering and evil to persist is worthy of praise and worship?

Was Gods punishment of Adam and Eve a reasonable punishment? He cursed Eve to bring forth children in extreme pain and cursed the ground Adam walked on all the days of their lives. These punishments were for disobedience, for eating fruit that he told them not to. Do those sound like reasonable punishments, from a good and loving creator?

You may find these to be hard questions, but as is often the case when Christians cannot defend their beliefs, you start accusing people of being uncivil, closed-minded and so forth, when I dont think Ive been guilty of any of that to an excessive degree.

Re: Several questions concerning the fall and evil

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:57 pm
by B. W.
MAGSolo wrote:You believe most likely because you were raised to believe and thats what it mostly boils down to. You are a product of your environment and nothing more. You dont believe because its particularly self evident to you, you believe for the exact same reason that Muslims believe in Allah and Islam. You believe because thats the culture you were brought up in. Thanks for your efforts though.
And you are of yours...
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