PaulSacramento wrote:Actually, the JW's solved that pesky "worship" thing by the way.
The translated the word to mean "obedience" when it applies to Jesus and "worship" when it applies to God or Satan.
So I guess those in heaven in Rev 5 last few verses were not bowing and worshiping?
No - even the JW's can't get around that one... no matter how hard they try... guilty of breaking th efirst commandment and teaching others to do so as well too...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
PaulSacramento wrote:Actually, the JW's solved that pesky "worship" thing by the way.
The translated the word to mean "obedience" when it applies to Jesus and "worship" when it applies to God or Satan.
So I guess those in heaven in Rev 5 last few verses were not bowing and worshiping?
No - even the JW's can't get around that one... no matter how hard they try... guilty of breaking th efirst commandment and teaching others to do so as well too...
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Yep, even in their NWT, that is written as worship, simply because it is also direct at God of course.
1stjohn0666 wrote:Let's see here last I checked the book of Revelation was "future"
Revelation is an account by John of Patmos, to what was happening and what would happen.
It was a Revelation of how things would turn out, as shown him by Our Lord.
What John saw in heaven was the past, present and future.
1stjohn0666 wrote:John 3:13 "no man has ascended to heaven"
Majority of translations read and mention that for Jesus to have come to earth - he came from heaven first. To come from heaven first means he had prior existence. Isaiah 53:1-12 mentions this too:
(ASV) And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
(BBE) And no one has ever gone up to heaven but he who came down from heaven, the Son of man.
(CEV) No one has gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from there.
(CJB) No one has gone up into heaven; there is only the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
(Darby) And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.
(EMTV) And no one has gone up into heaven except He who came down out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.
(ERV) The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven--the Son of Man.
(ESV) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
(GNB) And no one has ever gone up to heaven except the Son of Man, who came down from heaven."
John 1:1-4 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. -- John 1:10-14 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
Hebrews 1:2 "Has in these last days spoken to us by [His] Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds"
Ephesians 3:9 "And to make all see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;"
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1 Cor 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
John 6:62 "[What] then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?"
John 13:3 "Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come from God and was going to God,"
John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father."
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
Philippians 2:5-8 "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross."
Hebrews 2:14-17 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like to [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."
1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits (demons) in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, youwould love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and wither I go; but you cannot tell whence I come, and wither I go.
John 8:23 And he said to them, youare from beneath; I am from above: youare of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone you not; but for blasphemy; and because that you, being a man, makest yourself God
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, youare gods? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, you blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews to him, you art not yet fifty years old, and hast you seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus says to them, I am. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said to them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am: if therefore you seek me, let these go their way:
Matt 21:13 And said to them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with you, you Jesus of Nazareth? art you come to destroy us? I know you who you art, the Holy One of God.
Acts 2:27 Because you wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt you suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
Acts 3:14 But youdenied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted to you;
Isa 48:12 Hearken to me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 2:8 And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things says the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Titus 2:10 Not purloining, but showing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
2 Thess 1:12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 John 1:2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew to you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested (in the flesh) to us;
Matt 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?" They said to Him, "The Son of David." 43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying: 44'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool "'? 45 If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his Son?" 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.
Mark 12:35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David? 36 For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool ."' 37 Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He then his Son?"
Acts 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool ."' 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool "?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
1stjohn0666 wrote:I have no argument that Jesus came forth from the Father. But as preexisting himself I do.
John, that would be ridiculous. Nobody can pre-exist himself.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
