Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:cheezerrox,
Isn't scripture pretty clear that as long as we give thanks to God for the food He has provided, then it's not a sin to eat pork? Unless "nothing is to be rejected" doesn't include pork?

1 Timothy 4:4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; 5 for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.


This is a good Scripture for this discussion, because I would actually say that this passage reinforces the position that kashrut (kosher dietary laws) was never done away with. What un-kosher food can be said to be sanctified by the Word of G-d?

All moving things and green plants. God sanctified them in Genesis 9:3:Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

And, the Word of God(Jesus Christ) declared all foods clean here:Mark 7:18-19 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [a]is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

The dietary laws were specific to the nation of Israel.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Are you a law unto yourself?

Gman wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Are you a law unto yourself?

Just trying to lighten the mood.

RickD wrote:

I can't tone down the message. It just comes down to if Torah applies still or not. If it does, eating swine, not keeping Shabbat, getting tattoos, and all things that the Torah defines as sin are sin. If it doesn't, then those things are not.

Cheezerrox, you can't see how this burden you are putting upon believers is a stumbling block? By saying that believers can't eat bacon, unbelievers who are reading this may throw away the gospel of Christ. So, not only are you placing a completely unnecessary burden on believers, you are creating a stumbling block for those who may come to Christ. I ask you in all seriousness to pray about what you're doing.

Stumbling block? Actually not eating pork is a good thing to avoid.. Pigs are omnivores and even eat their own poo... I really don't have a problem giving up swine. They are gross anyways... Yuck. You can take my portion.

Want to know what these gross animals eat?

http://wanttoknowit.com/what-do-pigs-eat/

Let's make a deal here... If you don't want to take a day off of work as it is commanded in the Bible, can I inherit your days off? On top of that you can take all the poo eating swine out there and eat that seven days a week too... I'll skip on that if you don't mind.

Yum.. Yum... Yum... Eat it up son. Canadian bacon anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86KFojFZ7WI

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:

I can't tone down the message. It just comes down to if Torah applies still or not. If it does, eating swine, not keeping Shabbat, getting tattoos, and all things that the Torah defines as sin are sin. If it doesn't, then those things are not.

Cheezerrox, you can't see how this burden you are putting upon believers is a stumbling block? By saying that believers can't eat bacon, unbelievers who are reading this may throw away the gospel of Christ. So, not only are you placing a completely unnecessary burden on believers, you are creating a stumbling block for those who may come to Christ. I ask you in all seriousness to pray about what you're doing.

Stumbling block? Actually not eating pork is a good thing to avoid.. Pigs are omnivores and even eat their own poo... I really don't have a problem giving up swine. They are gross anyways... Yuck. You can take my portion.

Want to know what these gross animals eat?

http://wanttoknowit.com/what-do-pigs-eat/

Gman, that's a completely different argument. Is pork healthy to eat? Not the same as "Is eating pork a sin?".

RickD wrote: Gman, that's a completely different argument. Is pork healthy to eat? Not the same as "Is eating pork a sin?".

Yes.. According to the Bible it is a sin to eat pork. But nothing I can see that is contingent on salvation... It is probably more related to gross things that can actually kill the body than the soul.

Regardless.. I would still stay away from it. G-d says don't eat, then I won't eat it..

RickD wrote:All moving things and green plants. God sanctified them in Genesis 9:3:Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant.

And, the Word of God(Jesus Christ) declared all foods clean here:Mark 7:18-19 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and [a]is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.)

The dietary laws were specific to the nation of Israel.

Let's look at Genesis 9:3 first. Noah was the first to be allowed to eat both plants AND meat; in other words, everything, or all types of food. That doesn't necessarily mean every plant and animal that exists. Of the original diet prescribed to Adam, HaShem says at Genesis 1:30, "I have given every green plant for food." This doesn't mean every single plant, but all plants fit for being eaten. There are obviously some plants that shouldn't be eaten, such as poison ivy. The Bible backs up this way of looking at it when you see Genesis 6:21, where G-d tells Noach to "take... some of all food which is edible, and gather it to yourself; and it shall be for food for you and for them." So there's a distinction between what's edible and what's not.

Also, Torah makes it clear that the Lord revealed to Noach the distinction between clean and unclean animals at Genesis 7:2, 8. So, G-d made the distinction between edible plants, and edible animals when they became food for man; and for animals, they are the same animals who are fit for sacrifice. The revelation to Moses confirmed this.

As far as the Messiah's words at mark 7:18-19, you have to take into account the context of the conversation. The conversation started when the Pharisees and scribes noticed and pointed out that Yeshua's disciples didn't perform n'tilat yadayim, or the ceremonial washing of hands, before eating, which is still performed by Orthodox Jews today (as told in verses 3-4). Yeshua rebukes them for equating the traditions of men; ie, the rabbinical additions to Torah, with Torah law itself, and even elevating the traditions over Scripture (verses 6-13). Afer this He states that nothing that goes within a man can make him unclean, only what comes out of him. They're not speaking of what's permissible to eat; that would be INCONCEIVABLE to the Pharisees and scribes, and so even if it was Messiah's message, He would need to state it specifically, because they would never assume He would insinuate that un-kosher foods are clean.

Also, one must take into consideration how important ritual purity was to the contemporary (and current) Orthodox, Rabbinic Jewish mind. The Talmud, an anthology of books that takes years to study completely, is divided into six sections covering the main areas of Jewish theology and laws, and one of those whole sections is devoted to ritual purity. That's significant. So, without taking into consideration the context of the conversation, and without recognizing the historical/religious context of Yeshua's time, one may come to a wrong understanding of His statement here.

Since the laws were given to a people in a specific land with specific species how does this apply to other plants and animals in other areas.

There are plenty of other animals which we probably should not eat like the baboon because of disease etc..., but the Bible does not say anything about those animals which leads me to believe that these laws were written for a certain people in a certain land for certain species because at that time they could have caused them harm. These days pigs are safe to eat and are free from disease, I would be more worried about mad cow disease.

Dan

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Since the laws were given to a people in a specific land with specific species how does this apply to other plants and animals in other areas.

There are plenty of other animals which we probably should not eat like the baboon because of disease etc..., but the Bible does not say anything about those animals which leads me to believe that these laws were written for a certain people in a certain land for certain species because at that time they could have caused them harm.

Not exactly... There is nothing in the Bible that says these commandments were give to people in a certain land or time.. The Bible gives the characteristics of clean and unclean animals to eat mainly in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.. These are the scavenger/predator animals, (animals that eat other animals). We would do well to avoid these animals. Tell me, would you order a sea gull to eat at a fancy restaurant?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:SThese days pigs are safe to eat and are free from disease, I would be more worried about mad cow disease.

Dan

Dan you call this safe? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86KFojFZ7WI

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Since the laws were given to a people in a specific land with specific species how does this apply to other plants and animals in other areas.

There are plenty of other animals which we probably should not eat like the baboon because of disease etc..., but the Bible does not say anything about those animals which leads me to believe that these laws were written for a certain people in a certain land for certain species because at that time they could have caused them harm. These days pigs are safe to eat and are free from disease, I would be more worried about mad cow disease.

Dan

This argument may be valid if Torah simply said, "Do not eat swine, do not eat rabbit, do not eat shellfish." But, while the Torah does give specific examples, it establishes general criteria for which animals are clean and unclean. Leviticus 11:2-4, 9-10 give these criteria; for land animals, eat only those that have split hooves and chew the cud; for sea animals, eat only those that have fins and scales.

Gman, my dog eats my cat's poop. When guests come over my house, I encourage my dog to give all my guests wet, sloppy kisses. Gman, you're invited to my house.
I'll make sure your invite isn't for a Saturday though, because if you're obeying the sabbath law, you can't leave your house nor drive a car.

cheezerrox wrote: This argument may be valid if Torah simply said, "Do not eat swine, do not eat rabbit, do not eat shellfish." But, while the Torah does give specific examples, it establishes general criteria for which animals are clean and unclean. Leviticus 11:2-4, 9-10 give these criteria; for land animals, eat only those that have split hooves and chew the cud; for sea animals, eat only those that have fins and scales.

Exactly cheeze... G-d isn't going to list every single animal in the animal kingdom to eat or not to eat.. Do you know how long that list would be? I've already had it with all the long genealogies. G-d will provide us the characteristics that you provided. Spare us the details...