Re: Jehovah witnesses
Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:21 am
So, who sat down with Abe and his wife and spoke and ate with them?
Genesis chapter one comes before Gen 32... and verified in...1stjohn0666 wrote:Gen 32 comes before Exo 24
Isaiah 44:24," Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself"
As well verified in Ephesians 3:9 and John 1:3
As for Genesis 32 – see the below quote form the link provided about half way down the quote
B. W. wrote:Post 12 -- Re-Edited
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 7&start=30
One reason it seems complicated is that for years, anti-Trinitarians had a cart-a-blanc seldom challenged say in the treatment and use of the Majestic Plural Rule. This Rule came about as a tool to combat the doctrine of the Trinity. While the use of the rule of the Majestic Plural is good in avoiding tri-theism, the Majestic Plural is still a plural and not singular.
Our English Translations use the generic word God and Lord to capture the deepness that is God and we end up missing so much of what the OT actually reveals about how God reveals who he is by the use of the Hebrew words Yahweh, Elohim, haElohim, El, Panim or spelled Panyim, Malek, Adoni, etc and etc.
What I find fascinating, is to actually read the forms of Elohim and haElohim in their intended plural usages as well as the other names used to reveal God. In the book, Basics of Biblical Hebrew, by G. D. Pratico and M. V. Van Pelt in section 9.18 Gary Pratico gives a good definition for the use of the Majestic Plural rule regarding the word Elohim as implying the fullness of Deity.
This encapsulates the basic meaning of Elohim very well and should be applied to the Majestic Plural Rule. Elohim does indeed, imply the fullness of Deity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each have the fullness of deity (Col 2:9) as they are of one essence and one.
Therefore HaElohim expresses - The Entire Fullness of Deity i.e. the Godhead which means the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one.
When reading the words used for God in the OT as intended they were to be used and read your personal bible study of the OT will open up to you in ways you can’t image. You will be struck with the awe and majesty of the Lord! Jesus opened his disciples understanding by showing them how the scriptures testified of Himself and so it will likewise be for you!
For example, the reading of Deuteronomy 4:35, 39 takes on a whole new perspective:
Deut 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim -implying The Godhead Trinity); there is no other besides him.
Deut 4:39…know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim) in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Yahweh and Elohim can be used to infer any combination or single member of the divine Trinity. The Textual context does indeed give clues on how to identify who is being mentioned in the use of these words. I will try to go into this more in later post (how to identify from the context who is speaking).
For now, the majority of the use of haElohim as pertaining to God, is in fact implying the fullness of God expressed in the NT in the word translated Godhead. This is a word used to identify that God is like none other! Therefore, when coming across haElohim as pertaining to God, think of the Trinity - the Godhead.
A Few Tips on identifying who the text refers too
When the phrase Malek Yahweh, or Malek of Yahweh, as well as when El Shaddai is mentioned, it is in direct reference to the pre-incarnate Christ Jesus. Malek simply means messenger (one who speaks and bears a message and does a task. Jesus in the NT is called the Logos (Word) of God. By him all things were made the bible tells us.
Spiros Zodhiates in his Lexicon to the New Testament explains that Logos means the expression of thought through speech, or intelligent thought expressed through speech. I would add, along with Thayer’s observation of the divine Logos, that through logos also comes action, wisdom, and understanding. This is what the Malek Yahweh did whenever He is revealed in the OT: granting insight, wisdom, understanding, and performing task that only God can legally do and say. Therefore the Malek - messenger Yahweh is Christ.
Evidence of Christ in the OT
El Shaddai is also Christ because that is who Jacob wrestled with and later identified as El Shaddai. Genesis 32:22-29 tells us about this. Hosea 12:4-5 reveals Jacob wrestled with a Malek and Genesis 32:30 Jacob states that he has seen God face to face (Face - panim to panim) and calls him Elohim. The Malek whom Hosea identifies is also God not an angelic being.
Look at Genesis 35:1, God (Elohim) said to Jacob, "Arise, go up to Bethel and dwell there. Make an altar there to the God (EL and note El is written in the Third person) who appeared to you when you fled from your brother Esau."
In Genesis 35:1 God the Father himself also identifies the wrestler as God - El in the third person grammar form and tells Jacob to go to Bethel and there make an altar. Jacob went to Bethel and in Genesis 35:7 he built an altar where God had revealed himself to Jacob when he fled from his brother. In verse 11 the wrestler is identified as El Shaddai.
Have trouble still then read Genesis 31:11, 13:
Genesis 31:11, 13: Then the angel (Malek -Messenger) of God (haElohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' 13 I am the God (EL) of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"
Again in, Genesis 35:1, 7, we have the location of Bethel and verse 7 Jacob called the place El-bethel as that is where God identified himself as the EL of Bethel. In verses 9-11 God, a second time tells Jacob that Jacob is now named Israel. Notice the second time to convey what was already said in Gen 32:28. Another reference to Jesus the Son!
Also, the bible does indeed that God confirms an oath He makes with no-one else but himself. In the OT, you will often come across God confirming his oaths in one chapter then in another confirms the same oath again. Often with the use of personal pro-nouns, I, involved up to three times in succession! (Hebrews 6:13-18)
With the evidence noted above now note Genesis 32:1-2: Jacob went on his way, and the angels (Maleks - Messengers) of God (Elohim) met him. 2 And when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's (Elohim) camp!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. (two camps, or two host, or two tents)
Remember what was stated in an earlier post about God’s panim being two panims in Numbers 6:24-27? And then note that Jacob mentioned seeing God Face to Face (Panim) a few verses later in Genesis 32. Again - specifically in the word Mahanaim we have two camps, two tents, host identified! So The Maleks Jacob saw was a theophany of both the Son and Holy Spirit and Jacob named the place appropriately!
There is more but take time to read this about Jacob and include the context of the chapters. Read it a few times. You will catch on ...
(All Bible Passages from ESV unless otherwise cited)
