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Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:17 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Neha wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Neha wrote:Dear Dan,

what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.

You have inadvertently created your own belief, all worldviews carry faith in one form or another. This though is probably for another thread as it is coming off topic, feel free to start another if you wish.
Which belief is that Dan? :wave:
sorry I edited my post before you answered but anyhow...........

Because of your position of atheism you will now have beliefs about the world which you didn't hold as a theist, but you would need to inform me of your beliefs, I cannot inform you because .......well.... their yours.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:28 pm
by Neha
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Neha wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Neha wrote:Dear Dan,

what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.

You have inadvertently created your own belief, all worldviews carry faith in one form or another. This though is probably for another thread as it is coming off topic, feel free to start another if you wish.
Which belief is that Dan? :wave:
sorry I edited my post before you answered but anyhow...........

Because of your position of atheism you will now have beliefs about the world which you didn't hold as a theist, but you would need to inform me of your beliefs, I cannot inform you because .......well.... their yours.
Dan, I am going to humor you on this, so lets for agreement sake say, I do have have beliefs, how does that help you or your position? How does that make God anymore real or personal to me? What problems does this quibble solve?

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:39 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Neha wrote:Dan, I am going to humor you on this, so lets for agreement sake say, I do have have beliefs, how does that help you or your position?


It doesn't and I don't expect it to.
How does that make God anymore real or personal to me?
It doesn't and why should it.
What problems does this quibble solve?
You said:
I haven't substituted it with any other belief.
and I disagree, everyone has beliefs.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:45 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
This thread has derailed, lets try to bring it back on topic.

So are there any atheists that want to put something on the table about the nature of reality?

If not then please move on to another topic. :cheers:

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:45 pm
by Neha
If it doesn't help then why bring this up? Sure I have many beliefs, but I have no belief for God, if that makes sense to you. I had beliefs about God but found them inconsistent with nature of God and then the Bible.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:46 pm
by Neha
Danieltwotwenty wrote:This thread has derailed, lets try to bring it back on topic.

So are there any atheists that want to put something on the table about the nature of reality?

If not then please move on to another topic. :cheers:
Sure, what do you think I should be putting on the table? I will humor you Dan :) , just tell me what you expect me to put out because I have no idea.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:50 pm
by Danieltwotwenty
Neha wrote:If it doesn't help then why bring this up?
Because you said
what do you expect any atheist to give to you? I believed once, now I don't. I have LOST faith, I haven't substituted it with any other belief.
Which I disagree with, you do have beliefs and you do have faith in them.
Sure I have many beliefs, but I have no belief for God, if that makes sense to you.
It does. :D
I had beliefs about God but found them inconsistent with nature of God and then the Bible.
This is a topic for another thread, feel free to make one and I can answer there.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:01 pm
by Kurieuo
Neha wrote:If it doesn't help then why bring this up? Sure I have many beliefs, but I have no belief for God, if that makes sense to you. I had beliefs about God but found them inconsistent with nature of God and then the Bible.
Hi Neha, doesn't it simply follow from what you say here that "God" may not be as you envisioned?

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:03 pm
by Neha
Dan and K, regarding emotional problems with God. Sure I have emotional problems with God. I even have a few intellectual ones but I don't think anyone here is going to buy into that. And that is because the gospel and the God that the bible and the churches promote directly has emotional impact on a person. The kind of traits you show your God with are deep emotional spiritual ones, like love happiness, trust, safety, security, peace, brotherhood. No church or pastor or apologist, nor any christian for that matter and you guys who are so fixated on this, have learned about God the way you would learn a pythagoras theorem. No church introduces God with epistemology and ontology and by first proving how the big bang came into being or how the kalam arguments makes sense. We learn about God in the most intimate of way.And so the gospel naturally, creates an emotional response. When someone says, Jesus come into my heart, that is not a intellectual or scientific inquiry or request. So you need to realize that instead of trumpeting around the idea that atheists must have beliefs and they must hate God or they just have emotional problems, while may make you feel comfortable, they do not infact help your positions at all.

And the emotional leads into the intellectual or vice versa. For you cannot cherish something you find wrong. For you, your emotional satisfaction leads you to believe there is a God and since you find it true deep down, eventually you can see it everywhere. Rest assured the hindu and the sikh and the muslim feel the same. This aspect of faith is commonly shared among all people. For an atheist who left faith, this is the same, an emotional dissatisfaction that has led to making the experience intellectual. No one like to be called emotional, I get it. It somehow means you are in error of bad judgement. But no, not always, not if you have good intellectual reasons too.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:06 pm
by Neha
Kurieuo wrote:
Neha wrote:If it doesn't help then why bring this up? Sure I have many beliefs, but I have no belief for God, if that makes sense to you. I had beliefs about God but found them inconsistent with nature of God and then the Bible.
Hi Neha, doesn't it simply follow from what you say here that "God" may not be as you envisioned?
My understanding of christian God comes from the scriptures. And somethings just don't add up, evolution, noah's flood, things like those. We all envision God based on personal experiences and on the bible, do we not?

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:28 pm
by 1over137
neha wrote:Kurieuo. I find your original post quite troubling and I don't think the point you are trying to get across is actually getting across no matter how clever you think your position is. For me atheism is very natural, even as a child I was not totally sold on biblical stories. And I have since found many of them to be problematic. For me, I may not be able to answer all that entails time and beginning of things, I doubt you have those answers, and I am not bothered with the idea of a God at all. My proposition is simple I have not seen anything in my life which merits a God. You may tell me why God is needed to justify the philosophical implication of etc and etc. But what am I to do with a God he does not resonate with me on any level? When I look at how twisted this world is, I genuinely question the existence of a God. How can I tell a raped Girl, "God loves you", "God knew what was going to happen but sorry he can't do anything about it but he still is omnipotent you know." What good is God then for if I can't trust him with my life, or safety?

I am an atheist because I have never seen anything which hints a God, I haven't felt what you have had, so either God loves you more or he doesn't exist. And if he does he doesn't want me to know him. He won't allow me to be the doubting thomas. How unfair!
I have a question for you: because you haven't felt yet what we have had, God loves us more? How come? God does things in his own time. I am Christian for about two years. Before, I could have been saying that he does not love me or he does not exist. But when I became a Christian and looked back on my life what I have seen was marvelous: God loving me and preparing me. Have I right to accuse him of not coming to him earlier? No, i do not and even do not wish to do that. I am even thankful for hard times I had to go through, because through them I now see and understand more. At least, that is how I see it now.

I would tell a raped girl (and raping is very disgusting to me. I am woman too and it's just disgusting) that people are broken, that they left God and lead broken life. But one day, God will restore it as he promises. And I believe this as God gave me belief.

Once I wrote a short poem:

Love given

World broken
Word spoken
Love given
Hearts driven

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:50 pm
by Kurieuo
Thanks Neha,

With all due respect I feel your posts would be better reserved for the "Questions for Christians" forum.

As it stands, this forum is reserved for questioning non-believers, and my original post in particular serves to try and get Atheists to put something on the table to do with reality. Rather than simply their usual criticising of Christians, or belief in God and any other beliefs they get all passionate about denying.

Not sure if mods are able to split certain posts off that are irrelevant, but really want to keep this on topic. Neha, I'd be happy to response to and continue discussions with you in a more relevant thread.

On the other hand, if you are happy to offer up some of your own beliefs now you are disenchanted with Christianity... what do you make of our universe having a beginning? Or how about our "self" -- are our actions and consciousness simply determined by the physical world of atoms, or are we to at least some degree really free and responsible beings?

If uninterested in answering such questions, and only interested to pose questions for Christians then notwithstanding responding to 1over137, another thread would be best. And I promise I'll weigh in, if you'd like me to.

Kindest regards, K

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:08 am
by Neha
I appreciate that. I have no trouble if you guys want the thread split, I just thought it was very handy having dialog on a relevant theme here since there will be plenty of times where discussion might overlap between atheism and theism, that is just the nature of these discussions. Since my answers as an atheist are a direct result of my experience of religion then I am not sure how we should go about it?
what do you make of our universe having a beginning?
A foreign event to be sure if it started at all. What was that event particularly, is something I am not sure about. I imagine a force, it could may very well be a God, who can say for sure? Its all hypothesis for now.
Or how about our "self" -- are our actions and consciousness simply determined by the physical world of atoms,
This would only matter if you believe that God determines each of our actions, in lack of which I must find a determining factor as justification of my actions. But if there is no God, then our actions could be consequential at best, I am not sure why they need to be determined unless they fall upon a natural tendency for instance, a chemical firing in our brain like serotonin, which can make us feel happy.

For example I read someone saying in another thread (I think it was someone called jalay not sure) that without God, if I, an atheist loves my child, then that is no more important than an elephant fart. That is a very typical YEC line, one which the member here used quite freely. Perhaps you may think the same or not, I don't know, I hope you don't. But if you do, then you may also think that without a God, there is no such thing as love or happiness, true? Perhaps there is no objective reason to love or be kind or be happy or why even live? I mean why not I jump off a cliff if life has no objective value? I have heard that many times and perhaps by the tone of it, which you will agree is totally devoid of any love (I imagine christ and the disciples going around telling people to believe in him or else jump off cliffs) it never seems to hit the point for me. I see insult but I don't see love or care. But anyways, to your point which I am thinking would lead to the idea that love or similar actions cannot have value without God is something I don't find very true.

We godless people are not heartless chaps you know, we don't push our kids under the cars just because we don't believe there is a God. I may not have any christian justification of my love for my child but again, who says I need one. Even Paul in Romans 2, say that gentiles have the "law of God" written on their hearts? why do you think that is written like that? Is it because the having conscience is just natural for humans (even if its God ordained)? So if there is a God and you do believe there is one, then you don't need to ask this question because I assume you believe your scriptures to be true to the word. How in your world view does asking this question helps?

And that member who calls atheists' loving their children "elephant farts" needs to stop doing that too.

But I do understand and accept the fact that life is a strange marvel of nature. That its unique in many ways and that I am totally awed when I look across the universe. Do I see God, I see the possibility of one? But with no connotations of any kind, for now. You think your God is true but nearly all religions say the same.
or are we to at least some degree really free and responsible beings?
No one is really free in one way. I mean we all die. So we are all tied to chemistry or biology in one sense. But we can make choices too, like killing ourselves, drinking water, swimming etc, none of which needs to be hardwired like breathing as a reflex. So I don't think all actions can be swept under one word, as being determined or not.

Are we responsible? I am not sure I follow, responsible for what? I am sure we are free to do things we can, and not free at all to do things that are beyond our grasp.

If I you have more questions please feel free to let me know.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:42 am
by Kurieuo
Neha wrote:
what do you make of our universe having a beginning?
A foreign event to be sure if it started at all. What was that event particularly, is something I am not sure about. I imagine a force, it could may very well be a God, who can say for sure? Its all hypothesis for now.
I have limited time right now, but wanted to respond to these statements of yours...

Now I might be wrong, but it seems from your response that it wouldn't be technically correct to label you an "Atheist", not even a weak form of Atheist. Perhaps Agnostic as to God's existence... It sounds to me as though you more believe God does probably exist, but it anything are annoyed by the complacency of such a being in the face of many bad things that happens in life... such that it's just easier if you don't believe.

I know I said Atheism is largely an emotional response earlier, but that's not necessarily intended in an entirely negative manner. I very much consider emotional arguments can possess much validity, and should not be rejected out of hand. If anything experiences and feelings add a "realness" if you will to some rational arguments which are often quite dry. So I do not dismiss such out of hand, and while very different to rational arguments, they can nonetheless be valid is some respect. We are human after all... and experience invokes all sorts of very real and valid emotions. It's just a different form if you will to an if A then B, A therefore B type of argument.

In any case, I'm only reading your words on a screen, but it seems to be that you do allow the possibility of God... albeit not a god who really is loves or cares about us. From your words, while you label yourself an Atheist, I'm just not seeing or perceiving you as one.

Re: Nature of Reality: A Challenge to Atheists

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:57 am
by Neha
Kurieuo wrote:
Neha wrote:
what do you make of our universe having a beginning?
A foreign event to be sure if it started at all. What was that event particularly, is something I am not sure about. I imagine a force, it could may very well be a God, who can say for sure? Its all hypothesis for now.
I have limited time right now, but wanted to respond to these statements of yours...

Now I might be wrong, but it seems from your response that it wouldn't be technically correct to label you an "Atheist", not even a weak form of Atheist. Perhaps Agnostic as to God's existence... It sounds to me as though you more believe God does probably exist, but it anything are annoyed by the complacency of such a being in the face of many bad things that happens in life... such that it's just easier if you don't believe.

I know I said Atheism is largely an emotional response earlier, but that's not necessarily intended in an entirely negative manner. I very much consider emotional arguments can possess much validity, and should not be rejected out of hand. If anything experiences and feelings add a "realness" if you will to some rational arguments which are often quite dry. So I do not dismiss such out of hand, and while very different to rational arguments, they can nonetheless be valid is some respect. We are human after all... and experience invokes all sorts of very real and valid emotions. It's just a different form if you will to an if A then B, A therefore B type of argument.

In any case, I'm only reading your words on a screen, but it seems to be that you do allow the possibility of God... albeit not a god who really is loves or cares about us. From your words, while you label yourself an Atheist, I'm just not seeing or perceiving you as one.
I am open to the possibility of a God but only when I believe a God when I will not be an atheist ;) . I know many atheists who are open to possibility of God, just don't find him. Early christians were accused of being atheists by the romans because they did not believe in Zeus or Apollo. Anyways I am not big on labels, I don't mind you calling me an agnostic atheist, as long as you don't think I am still a christian, (I have been called that too by folks who still think I am a child of God having full pardon and an everlasting life).