Ken wrote:As a sceptic I believe morals are human construct; they only exist as an idea; they don’t have an actual physical existence. Sorta like math, if humans no longer existed, neither would math or human morality.
There's actually a similar question pertaining to math. I am a realist there, as well. In other words,
3 may not be a physical thing, but
3 does represent a real, objective part of extramental reality (strictly speaking, it's not that
3 does but rather that
1 does, as do the notions of division and multiplication/addition, so that
3 is really a composite of several concepts, but I digress).
Anyway, the idea you are promoting is called moral subjectivism, or, again, moral anti-realism. It has real consequences, and I just don't think that you believe what you pretend to believe.
The problem with #1 is there is no physical proof that God even exist! Let alone be all that is claimed of him; so as a skeptic i don’t see how anything that exists in the physical world can be attached to a God that can’t be proven to exist or have an effect on the physical world.
So you also adhere to scientism. More self-refuting nonsense, where by "nonsense," I mean that which cannot logically be true because it refutes itself.
For the record, you are wrong that there is no physical evidence of God's existence. Your keyboard is such evidence. You just don't know how to make the proper deductions from that, and you don't know how to do that because your scientism is keeping you from being rational.
You must remember; when I said I believe in objective morality, I was talking about my definition which is akin to the dictionary definition of objective morality; not the definition that you guys use on this site.
Yes, yes, yes, you go on and on and on about "my definition" this and "my definition" that. You seem to think we are talking about words. We aren't. We are talking about ideas. What are are calling "morality" (objective or not) is just not morality. You would be more honest to say "personal preferences that are more or less predictable for this or that reason."
I never said I personally agree with everything society enforces as moral or right; my opinion of morality often differs from what society deems moral on some issues. It’s not might makes right, its might makes enforcement.
You aren't allowed to say you "agree" or "disagree" with
anything society enforces as moral. To agree is to say something is right or correct. To disagree is to say it is wrong or incorrect. Such is meaningless, however, when applied to morality if morals aren't real. Suppose you say, "Chocolate ice cream is the best," and I say, "I agree!" We're not
really saying anything about chocolate ice cream at all. We're both talking about our
selves--you asserting that chocolate ice cream is preferable to all other flavors, and me saying that I hold to the same view. But if neo-x comes along as says, "I disagree; vanilla is the best!" neither of us would turn around and try to
argue that he is
wrong. In fact, very soon we would all drop our language about "best" and just come out and say that there is no "best" ice cream, objectively speaking.
So we go back to what I said before. If a society says something is right or wrong, you don't really "agree" or "disagree." At best, you hold a similar personal preference. But you have no basis on which to say society is "right" or "wrong." Press you're ideas--your language here--and you'll have to admit (if you are at all willing to be intellectually honest) that there's no agreement. There's just similarity and dissimilarity of opinions. The racist, bigot, murderer, and rapist are not wrong or immoral after all, anymore than neo-x is wrong or immoral for preferring vanilla to chocolate.
That is not my view. As I said; my view on many issues often differ from what society enforces.
Of course it isn't your view--not intentionally. But it
is the necessary consequences of your view. That you, like everyone who holds to your absurd position, commits the taxi cab fallacy is your problem, not mine. Your failure to be intellectually consistent only points to your own ignorance on one had or cowardice on the other. Either way, it's hardly respectable, and either way, your problem points well back to the OP. Your atheism, and your ethical subjectivism, it turns out, cannot stand on its own two feet. You avoid the logical and necessary consequences of your beliefs by simply ignoring them and adopting conclusions that completely do not follow, conclusions that undermine your premise, conclusions that require a belief in God.
I believe they are only real as human ideas. They have no physical existence.
Yes, I know. As I said before--self-refuting scientism, which is something else that I doubt you see.
You have much to learn, Kenny.