Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[PeteSinCA]

Regarding my presence here, I explained in my Intro post what it is that interests me in this forum. If anyone doubts what I said, simply search for all my posts here so far. The majority - I'd guess 2/3 - 3/4 - have nothing to do with A2E or Jehovah's witnesses. And as a further invitation, go to the Intro Inrum at the discussion site A2E has linked several times. Once there, look at the stickied thread, "Guide to Surviving RO". This has the rules of that site, rules that limit what Moderators can discipline. At the point when I posted what A2E quoted, what Insaid was true within my knowledge at the time.

I apologize for going off-topic into something personal, but I have a low tolerance for false accusations. If anyone cares to look over my posts in that thread, it can be seen that I twice (IIRC) responded to another member who saw absences on A2E's part as a sign that she had quietly left the thread.

One only need review that thread to see that my use of the phrase "Prod the Mod" was quite accurate. A2E started playing that game early in that thread, along with generally playing victim.

[ClassicalTeacher]

Notice that within my question, I clearly stated that Jesus was on earth getting baptized and that verse 17 said the voice of Jehovah (the Father) came from heaven. That equates to: The Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ) were not at the same place at the same time, because that is what Matthew 3:16-17 states.

Jeremiah 23:24 states that God is everywhere, if God is everywhere how can his voice come from heaven if God is also on the Earth?

ALTER2EGO -to- DANIEL TWO TWENTY:
You tell me. Especially since Jeremiah 23:24 is not stating that God is everywhere. That's what you claim it is saying. Maybe you should ask God in prayer why he inspired Matthew to lie when Matthew wrote the following:

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

Again, she doesn't use the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE, but the re-written jw bible--which is not a bible at all. Yeah...she certainly knows her stuff, doesn't she?

[ClassicalTeacher]

Regarding my presence here, I explained in my Intro post what it is that interests me in this forum. If anyone doubts what I said, simply search for all my posts here so far. The majority - I'd guess 2/3 - 3/4 - have nothing to do with A2E or Jehovah's witnesses. And as a further invitation, go to the Intro Inrum at the discussion site A2E has linked several times. Once there, look at the stickied thread, "Guide to Surviving RO". This has the rules of that site, rules that limit what Moderators can discipline. At the point when I posted what A2E quoted, what Insaid was true within my knowledge at the time.

I apologize for going off-topic into something personal, but I have a low tolerance for false accusations. If anyone cares to look over my posts in that thread, it can be seen that I twice (IIRC) responded to another member who saw absences on A2E's part as a sign that she had quietly left the thread.

One only need review that thread to see that my use of the phrase "Prod the Mod" was quite accurate. A2E started playing that game early in that thread, along with generally playing victim.

Hey Pete! I understand your frustration. She accused me of trying to get her banned, too because I alerted the mods to what I suspected about her. I never mentioned to anyone, mod or member, that she should be banned. What I did say in jest was that had I been a mod, I would have banned her for blatantly ignoring the request to stop using her fancy formatting. I think she thinks that that makes her IQ a little higher....

[RickD]

There's been 7 pages of this thread, and most of the posts haven't been about the topic. Warning to everyone here: if we can't discuss the topic, I'll lock the thread. Alter2Ego, when someone makes a thread he/she needs to be willing to answer questions from other posters about the topic. Please be willing to answer valid questions that have been asked of you regarding your posts.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

[PaulSacramento]

There's been 7 pages of this thread, and most of the posts haven't been about the topic. Warning to everyone here: if we can't discuss the topic, I'll lock the thread. Alter2Ego, when someone makes a thread he/she needs to be willing to answer questions from other posters about the topic. Please be willing to answer valid questions that have been asked of you regarding your posts.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

Considering that the topics were addressed in the first couple of pages and Alter2Ego simply choose to ignore them, what do you expect?
EX:
She asked about the bible verses that speak of/led to the the doctrine of Hell/Hellfire and when the below was posted, simply ignored it and said that the questions wasn't answered, when in fact the post stated exactly what she asked for : bible chapters and verses:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

The above not only states the book, chapters and verses but a link to the source.

I mean, sheesh !

[Danieltwotwenty]

There's been 7 pages of this thread, and most of the posts haven't been about the topic. Warning to everyone here: if we can't discuss the topic, I'll lock the thread. Alter2Ego, when someone makes a thread he/she needs to be willing to answer questions from other posters about the topic. Please be willing to answer valid questions that have been asked of you regarding your posts.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

Hey Rick is it ok to discuss surrounding topics like omnipresence as it related to the trinity doctrine, Alter2ego rejected certain interpretations of passages because she claimed that omnipresence was not a property of God. I thought it was prudent to prove God is omnipresent as it related to the argument for the trinity doctrine, or should I have started a new thread for that?


Dan

[SonofAletheia]

Hey Rick is it ok to discuss surrounding topics like omnipresence as it related to the trinity doctrine, Alter2ego rejected certain interpretations of passages because she claimed that omnipresence was not a property of God. I thought it was prudent to prove God is omnipresent as it related to the argument for the trinity doctrine, or should I have started a new thread for that?
Dan

I did not know that Jehovah's Witnesses did not hold to God having the attribute of omnipresence. I too, would like to discuss this

[RickD]

There's been 7 pages of this thread, and most of the posts haven't been about the topic. Warning to everyone here: if we can't discuss the topic, I'll lock the thread. Alter2Ego, when someone makes a thread he/she needs to be willing to answer questions from other posters about the topic. Please be willing to answer valid questions that have been asked of you regarding your posts.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

Hey Rick is it ok to discuss surrounding topics like omnipresence as it related to the trinity doctrine, Alter2ego rejected certain interpretations of passages because she claimed that omnipresence was not a property of God. I thought it was prudent to prove God is omnipresent as it related to the argument for the trinity doctrine, or should I have started a new thread for that?


Dan

Absolutely Dan. It pertains to the topic, so it's fine to discuss here.

My point is that if someone creates a thread, it is expected that this person should answer questions people pose regarding the thread. This is just common practice in a discussion, on a discussion forum. Most of us here understand this, but some don't want to discuss things. Some want to use these forums as a pulpit to preach their heretical beliefs, without any real intention of discussion.

In other words, if someone wants to start a topic dealing with a belief outside of the accepted beliefs in mainstream Christianity, that's fine. Just please be willing to answer questions regarding such beliefs.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Hey Rick is it ok to discuss surrounding topics like omnipresence as it related to the trinity doctrine, Alter2ego rejected certain interpretations of passages because she claimed that omnipresence was not a property of God. I thought it was prudent to prove God is omnipresent as it related to the argument for the trinity doctrine, or should I have started a new thread for that?
Dan

I did not know that Jehovah's Witnesses did not hold to God having the attribute of omnipresence. I too, would like to discuss this

Neither did I, I think she was grasping at straws because her arguments were falling apart.

I really don't think I will get a reply and even if I do it will be mere assertions.

[SonofAletheia]

Neither did I, I think she was grasping at straws because her arguments were falling apart.

I really don't think I will get a reply and even if I do it will be mere assertions.

I've been looking around some of the JW's websites and it seems to be the common viewpoint.

The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1)

The Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent, or present everywhere at all times, like some impersonal force. Rather, as Jesus’ words found at Matthew 6:9 and 18:10 show, God is a person—a “Father”—and he resides in heaven, his “established place of dwelling.”—1 Kings 8:43.
Toward the end of his life, Jesus said: “I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.” (John 16:28) After his death in the flesh and resurrection as a spirit, Christ ascended “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God.”—Hebrews 9:24.

These seem to be the general arguments from the JW's

[Danieltwotwenty]

Neither did I, I think she was grasping at straws because her arguments were falling apart.

I really don't think I will get a reply and even if I do it will be mere assertions.

I've been looking around some of the JW's websites and it seems to be the common viewpoint.

The true God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1)

The Bible does not teach that God is omnipresent, or present everywhere at all times, like some impersonal force. Rather, as Jesus’ words found at Matthew 6:9 and 18:10 show, God is a person—a “Father”—and he resides in heaven, his “established place of dwelling.”—1 Kings 8:43.
Toward the end of his life, Jesus said: “I am leaving the world and am going my way to the Father.” (John 16:28) After his death in the flesh and resurrection as a spirit, Christ ascended “into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God.”—Hebrews 9:24.

These seem to be the general arguments from the JW's

Well there you go, learn something new everyday hey.

[Alter2Ego]

There's been 7 pages of this thread, and most of the posts haven't been about the topic. Warning to everyone here: if we can't discuss the topic, I'll lock the thread. Alter2Ego, when someone makes a thread he/she needs to be willing to answer questions from other posters about the topic. Please be willing to answer valid questions that have been asked of you regarding your posts.

Thank you all for your cooperation.

ALTER2EGO -to- RICKD:

I have responded in detail to many of the posts directed to me that are on topic. Obviously, I cannot respond to every single person at the same time. So I respond to them in turn, and then go back and respond to something else that a different person posted.

I am not interested in people telling me their personal philosophy. I am interested in them proving their beliefs by quoting scriptures that are contextually correct. Anybody can post scriptures and tell others: "here is proof of trinity" or "here is proof of literal hellfire" or "here is proof that God is omnipresent," etc. Whenever they do that, I ask them to show me where, within the verses, they are seeing trinity or literal hellfire torment, or omnipresence, and so on. Thereafter, I direct them to the context of the verse that they think is proof of their ideology. I also ask them viewpoint questions, to see if they get the point of the Biblical context that I just directed their attention to. That is how I conduct debates. I need for the person to show me, from the Judeo-Christian Bible, where they think they are seeing proof of their ideology.


Recall that I asked PaulSacramento to show me where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the Bible. PaulSacramento responded with the following verses, which I asked him/her to explain. (See my third post on Page 4 of this thread, at the following weblink
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ow#p141503

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

Instead of responding to my above request, PaulSacramento disappeared. He/she recently showed up in this thread again, just to complain to you that I would not accept what he/she claims is proof of literal hellfire torment in the verses.


Likewise, Jac3510 made claims about Jehovah and Jesus being the same god and that they have the same will and the same intellect. Recall that I showed Jac3510 two verses of scriptures where Jesus clearly said he cannot do anything of his own will (Luke 22:42) and that he does not know certain things that Jehovah knows (Matthew 24:36). I then followed that with two very simple and straight forward questions to Jac3510, which he/she evaded. Jac3510 then went on to tell me about his/her personal philosophy, while not producing a single verse of scripture to prove what he/she was telling me.


Lastly, when Danieltwotwenty made the claim that Jeremiah 23:24 is proof of God being "omnipresent," I gave him/her a detailed response, on Page 6 of this thread. (It will be my first post on the page.) Here is the weblink.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ow#p141557


In other words, I am responding to people's posts on the condition that they are posting on topic. It's not my problem if they choose to reject Biblical context or refuse to explain why they believe their cherry picked verses are saying what they claim the verses are saying.


BTW: I am sure you have noticed that I have completely ignored people that are posting inflammatory comments to me or making derogatory comments about me to others. You will also note that almost everything I post in this thread is directly in response to Jac3510 and PaulSacramento and Danieltwotwenty, and it is always on topic and in direct response to what they posted. The only things I posted in this thread that were not on topic were directed to you regarding the behavior of the people over at republicanoperative.com. I will not be commenting about them to you again.

[SonofAletheia]

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

Instead of responding to my above request, PaulSacramento disappeared. He/she recently showed up in this thread again, just to complain to you that I would not accept what he/she claims is proof of literal hellfire torment in the verses.

Even though I am largely open to various views on Hell (is it more metaphorical or literal, is it purely separation from God or actual torture, views on annihilationism or universalism) it's your job to show that those verses are not talking about literal hellfire.

Any objective reader would conclude that it's literal hellfire (without an opposing argument which I'll gladly hear from you...?)
“eternal fire” “unquenchable fire” “shame and everlasting contempt” “the fire is not quenched” “torment” “fire” “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” “lake of burning sulfur” “tormented day and night forever and ever”
It's amazing how you read these words and conclude that you "don't see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment"

[Alter2Ego]

Instead of responding to my above request, PaulSacramento disappeared. He/she recently showed up in this thread again, just to complain to you that I would not accept what he/she claims is proof of literal hellfire torment in the verses.

Even though I am largely open to various views on Hell (is it more metaphorical or literal, is it purely separation from God or actual torture, views on annihilationism or universalism) it's your job to show that those verses are not talking about literal hellfire.

Any objective reader would conclude that it's literal hellfire (without an opposing argument which I'll gladly hear from you...?)
“eternal fire” “unquenchable fire” “shame and everlasting contempt” “the fire is not quenched” “torment” “fire” “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” “lake of burning sulfur” “tormented day and night forever and ever”
It's amazing how you read these words and conclude that you "don't see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment"

ALTER2EGO -to- SON OF ALETHEIA:
Speak for yourself. I happen to believe that you are an atheist and that you don't care anything about any conversation where the Bible is concerned. In fact, you showed up earlier making derogatory comments about the New World Translation. So your sudden interest in the cherry picked words that were isolated from the context of several verses is suspicious, at best.


The only person that sees literal hellfire torment in those words are people who cherry pick words from entire verses and ignore everything else. That's exactly what PaulSacramento did. Whenever people isolate a few words from an entire verse and ignore everything else, it indicates they are not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Danieltwotwenty did the same thing with Jeremiah 23:24. When I showed Danieltwotwenty the context, he/she continued to argue that Jeremiah 23:24 means what he/she says it means. That is exactly the response I will get from PaulSacramento if I show him/her the context to the words that he/she cherry picked above. That's why I asked PaulSacramento to explain where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the entire verses (as opposed to a few words that PaulSacramento isolated).



Since you insist that the cherry picked words are to be taken literally, maybe you and PaulSacramento should consult and then put together an explanation for why that is the case.

[neo-x]

ALTER2EGO -to- SON OF ALETHEIA:
Speak for yourself. I happen to believe that you are an atheist and that you don't care anything about any conversation where the Bible is concerned. In fact, you showed up earlier making derogatory comments about the New World Translation. So your sudden interest in the cherry picked words that were isolated from the context of several verses is suspicious, at best.


The only person that sees literal hellfire torment in those words are people who cherry pick words from entire verses and ignore everything else. That's exactly what PaulSacramento did. Whenever people isolate a few words from an entire verse and ignore everything else, it indicates they are not interested in the context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters).

Danieltwotwenty did the same thing with Jeremiah 23:24. When I showed Danieltwotwenty the context, he/she continued to argue that Jeremiah 23:24 means what he/she says it means. That is exactly the response I will get from PaulSacramento if I show him/her the context to the words that he/she cherry picked above. That's why I asked PaulSacramento to explain where he/she is seeing literal hellfire torment in the entire verses (as opposed to a few words that PaulSacramento isolated).



Since you insist that the cherry picked words are to be taken literally, maybe you and PaulSacramento should consult and then put together an explanation for why that is the case.

I think you are too full of yourself.