Evidence for God from Science

krystyna wrote:Byblos

Which is precisely why he/she didn't include a link. Nice job BW. As I recall we do have rules on the forum against such behavior don't we?

Did you bother reading my post of Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:17 am?

Nope, can't find it. My local time zone is different so I don't see what post you're referring to. I still can't find the quote you referenced, you may want to post the link again so we can see in what context that paragraph was lifted from.

And 30,000+ denominations that agree on the trinity, while not an ad populum proof in and of itself, is pretty compelling evidence considering they don't agree on much else.

Byblos

I still can't find the quote you referenced,

Let me copy/paste:

I like this one:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia.

The inventors of the Trinity God admit openly that it has nothing to do with the Bible.

Thanks vanquish29

And 30,000+ denominations that agree on the trinity, while not an ad populum proof in and of itself

There are few lessons: Biblical about two ways in Mt 7 and historical about the Trinitarian Germans and Italians murdering their spiritual brothers by millions.

To add to this is Jesus’ pre-requisite for the eternal life in Jn 17:3.

krystyna wrote:RickD

Are you open to the possibility that the trinitarian view is true?

I believe in Jesus’ “view”. His “view” is that the Father is the only true God; his God.

Are you trying to say that Jesus’ “view” is wrong or that he didn’t know what you know?

Krystyna,

Are you open to the idea that Jesus is God? Or have you already made up your mind that He isn't?

RickD

Krystyna,

Are you open to the idea that Jesus is God?

I would appreciate a clear Biblical text stating that Jesus is God. Didn’t Jesus say that the Father is the only true God making the eternal life subject to this knowledge?

However, your question is not entirely clear. Jesus said in Jn 17:6 that he manifested the Father’s name. Could you tell what name and how Jesus manifested?

Let me say what transpires from the Bible.

The name is not today’s name-tag.

God toughed his anointed to fear him and to do what is right Isa 11:1-3. He gave him his spirit without measure Jn 3:34. Jesus received all from the Father Mt 11:27. The Father always heard Jesus Jn 11:41-42. And lastly God did his works through him Ac 2:22. After the resurrection Jesus was seated on the right hand of the Majesty with all power in heaven and earth.

Well, although Jesus was promised to sit on his father David’s throne as the gratitude for his obedience to his God, one may have a problem to differentiate between him and God. It is particularly difficult considering “mistranslations” of some verses, additions and explaining away of many clear texts like Isa 55:11 and Ps 33:6-9 in Jn 1:1-14.

Jesus’ genesis is propagated in light of the Trinitarian theology although his coming from dead man’s seed foretold in 2Sam 7:12 is not liked. So is the fulfilment of Ac 2”36 and 13:23. Few verses speaking of him supposedly acting before the world began simply coincide with the prophecy about him the same way as the prophecy about salvation for his followers before the world began.

Krystyna,

Last chance. Answer please.

Are you open to the idea that Jesus is God? Or have you already made up your mind that He isn't?

krystyna wrote:Byblos

I still can't find the quote you referenced,

Let me copy/paste:

I like this one:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia.

Are you just playing stupid or do you think I am? I am asking you for the link where you lifted the above quote from.

krystyna wrote: The Trinity God was formulated in 381 (it is the fourth not third century) under the “inspiration” of Emperor Theodosius the Great.,.

You are in error:

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas

The Letter of Barnabas "And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, 'Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,' understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men" (Letter of Barnabas 5).

80 AD Hermas

Hermas The Shepherd "The Son of God is older than all his creation, so that he became the Father's adviser in his creation. Therefore also he is ancient" (The Shepherd 12).


I Clement of Rome 80-140 AD

1 Clem 46:6
Have we not one God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace that was shed upon us? And is there not one calling in Christ?

1 Clem 58:2
Receive our counsel, and ye shall have no occasion of regret. For as God liveth, and the Lord Jesus Christ liveth, and the Holy Spirit,who are the faith and the hope of the elect, so surely shall he, whowith lowliness of mind and instant in gentleness hath without regretfulness performed the ordinances and commandments that are given by God, be enrolled and have a name among the number of themthat are saved through Jesus Christ, through whom is the glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius around 115 AD

Ignatius to the Ephesians

CHAPTER 9
9:1 But I have learned that certain persons passed through you from yonder, bringing evil doctrine; whom ye suffered not to sow seed in you, for ye stopped your ears, so that ye might not receive the seed sown by them; forasmuch as ye are stones of a temple, which were prepared beforehand for a building of God the Father, being hoisted up to the heights through the engine of Jesus Christ, which is the Cross, and using for a rope the Holy Spirit; while your faith is your windlass, and love is the way that leadeth up to God. 9:2 So then ye are all companions in the way, carrying your God and your shrine, your Christ and your holy things, being arrayed from head to foot in the commandments of Jesus Christ. And I too, taking part in the festivity, am permitted by letter to bear you company and to rejoice with you, that ye set not your love on anything after the common life of men,but only on God.


150 AD - The Apology of Aristides the Philosopher

The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven. Thereupon these twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and kept showing his greatness with all modesty and uprightness. And hence also those of the present day who believe that preaching are called Christians, and they are become famous.

Justin Martyr around 150 AD

Chap. XIII. — Christians Serve God Rationally.

What sober-minded man, then, will not acknowledge that we are not atheists, worshipping as we do the Maker of this universe, and declaring, as we have been taught, that He has no need of streams of blood and libations and incense; whom we praise to the utmost of our power by the exercise of prayer and thanksgiving for all things wherewith we are supplied, as we have been taught that the only honour that is worthy of Him is not to consume by fire what He has brought into being for our sustenance, but to use it for ourselves and those who need, and with gratitude to Him to offer thanks by invocations and hymns 13 for our creation, and for all the means of health, and for the various qualities of the different kinds of things, and for the changes of the seasons; and to present before Him petitions for our existing again in incorruption through faith in Him. Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove. For they proclaim our madness to consist in this, that we give to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all; for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.

Other quotes from him around 150 AD

150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63)

150 AD Justin Martyr "Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch, 36)

150 AD Justin Martyr "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Christ] is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 63.

150 AD Justin Martyr in Chap. LXVI. He (Justin) Proves From Isaiah That God Was Born From A Virgin. (Chapter Title, Chap. LXVI)

150 AD Justin Martyr "And Trypho said, "You endeavor to prove an incredible and well-nigh impossible thing;[namely], that God endured to be born and become man...some Scriptures which we mention, and which expressly prove that Christ was to suffer, to be worshipped, and [to be called] God, and which I have already recited to you, do refer indeed to Christ." (Dialogue with Trypho, ch 68)

150 AD Justin Martyr "But if you knew, Trypho," continued I, "who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel, and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes shall mourn. For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God. For Moses says somewhere in Exodus the following: `The Lord spake to Moses, and said to him, I am the Lord, and I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, being their God; and my name I revealed not to them, and I established my covenant with them.' And thus again he says, `A man wrestled with Jacob,' and asserts it was God; narrating that Jacob said, `I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'" (Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. CXXVI [See also The First Apology of Justin, Chap. XIII; XXII; LXIII; Dialogue of Justin with Trypho, A Jew, Chap. XXXVI; XLVIII; LVI; LIX; LXI; C; CV; CXXV; CXXVIII)

[Trypho to Justin] "...you say that this Christ existed as God before the ages, and that He submitted to be born and become man" - Dialogue with Trypho, ch.48.

Justin Martyr "We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5-6).

Justin Martyr "Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race" (First Apology 23).

Justin Martyr "But both Him, and the Son (who came forth from Him and taught us these things, and the host of the other good angels who follow and are made like to Him), and the prophetic Spirit, we worship and adore." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 6) Notice what else Justin say: "Worship God alone." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 16) "Whence to God alone we render worship." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 17)

Justin Martyr "God begot before all creatures a Beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son, . . . sometimes Lord and Word ... We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61).

Justin Martyr "God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: 'Let us make man after our image and likeness' . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

140 AD Aristides

Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16).

Others:

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna

Polycarp of Smyrna "I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

160 AD Mathetes

Mathetes "[The Father] sent the Word that he might be manifested to the world . . . This is he who was from the beginning, who appeared as if new, and was found old . . . This is he who, being from everlasting, is today called the Son" (Letter to Diognetus 11).

170 AD Tatian the Syrian

Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).

177 AD Athenagoras

Athenagoras, "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by `the Son,' I will tell you briefly: He is the first- begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth to be the model and energizing force of all material things" (Plea for the Christians 10:2-4).

"Christians know God and His Logos. They also know what type of oneness the Son has with the Father and what type of communion the Father has with the Son. Furthermore, they know what the Spirit is and what the unity is of these three: the Spirit, the Son, and the Father. They also know what their distinction is in unity." (2.134) "We acknowledge a God, and a Son (His Logos), and a Holy Spirit. These are united in essence--the Father, the Son, and the Spirit." Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.141


177 AD Melito of Sardis

Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai's The Guide 13).

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria

Clement Of Alexandria [note: Clement NEVER calls Jesus a creature.] "There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated." (Fragments, Part I, section III)
"that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Saviour, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God, not disbelieved in by all when He was first preached, nor altogether unknown when, assuming the character of man, and fashioning Himself in flesh, He enacted the drama of human salvation: for He was a true champion and a fellow-champion with [ie. God among creatures, not that Jesus is classed as a creature] the creature." (Exhortations, Chap 10)

Many of these quotes are from this website: http://www.bible.ca/H-trinity.htm

Please take the time to look these quotes over and you can see that way before 312 AD, Krystyna, Christian people understood the triune nature of God. I suggest you look up the quotes in their resective contexts as well too.

You are in great error Krystyna...
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Krystyna, you can also find many/most (all?) of the writings B.W. quoted in the Christian Classics Ethereal Library. That way you can go to the (translated) source and read the quotes in context.

So Krystyna linked to an article in the thread Krystyna started this AM. I went to the home page for that article, Reformation.org. All I will say at this point is that I am not equal to describing its contents, and if I tried, B.W., Rick, et al, might think I was wildly exaggerating or less than sober. It must be seen to be believed!

PeteSinCA wrote:So Krystyna linked to an article in the thread Krystyna started this AM. I went to the home page for that article, Reformation.org. All I will say at this point is that I am not equal to describing its contents, and if I tried, B.W., Rick, et al, might think I was wildly exaggerating or less than sober. It must be seen to be believed!

That looks like a Schizophrenic link if ever there was one...
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B.W.

ou are in error:

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas...

I see no Biblical reference to verse/s stating that God is Trinity. All of your long post shows how some people were trying to figure out how to accommodate the new religion into their belief system coming up with many ideas.

This is my challenge to you.

Explain why I should consider that Jesus lied in clear texts stating that the eternal life is for them who know the Father the only true God and his anointed?
Did Jesus lie that he had a God; the same God as I have?
Why I should consider that people who were trying to accommodate the new religion into their belief system had authority over God’s word; could throw it into the dust bin and murder those who wanted nothing else but the truth from God’s word?

Do you think that I would trade God’s word for man-made stories?

PeteSinCA

Krystyna, you can also find many/most (all?) of the writings B.W. quoted in the Christian Classics Ethereal Library.

The Bible is the only classic for me. It doesn’t mention a Trinity God and I will not break God’s commandment to conform to man-made theologies.

Irenaeus Against Heresies ---180 AD

Irenaeus "Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God; nor would they have named any one in his own person Lord, except God the Father ruling over all, and His Son who has received dominion from His Father over all creation, as this passage has it: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit Thou at my right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." Here the [Scripture] represents to us the Father addressing the Son; He who gave Him the inheritance of the heathen, and subjected to Him all His enemies. Since, therefore, the Father is truly Lord, and the Son truly Lord, the Holy Spirit has fitly designated them by the title of Lord. And again, referring to the destruction of the Sodomites, the Scripture says, "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah fire and brimstone from the LORD out of heaven." For it here points out that the Son, who had also been talking with Abraham, had received power to judge the Sodomites for their wickedness. And this [text following] does declare the same truth: "Thy throne, O God; is for ever and ever; the scepter of Thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee." For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father." (Irenaeus Against Heresies.Book III.Book 3, ch 6)

Irenaeus. For this reason [it is said], “Who shall declare His generation?” (Isa 53:8) since “He is a man, and who shall recognise Him?” (Jer 17:9) But he to whom the Father which is in heaven has revealed Him, (Mat 16:16) knows Him, so that he understands that He who “was not born either by the will of the flesh, or by the will of man,” (John 1:13) is the Son of man, this is Christ, the Son of the living God. For I have shown from the Scriptures,95 that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man. But that He had, beyond all others, in Himself that pre-eminent birth which is from the Most High Father, and also experienced that pre-eminent generation which is from the Virgin, (Isa 7:14) the divine Scriptures do in both respects testify of Him: also, that He was a man without comeliness, and liable to suffering; (Isa 53:2) that He sat upon the foal of an ass; (Zec 9:9) that He received for drink, vinegar and gall; (Psalms 69:21) that He was despised among the people, and humbled Himself even to death and that He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counsellor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, (Isa 9:6) coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men; (Dan 7:13) — all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him."

Irenaeus. It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;” (Gen 1:26) He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world. (Against Heresies, Book IV, ch. 20, section 1)


262 AD Gregory the Wonder-worker

Gregory the Wonder-worker - "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is His subsistent Wisdom and Power and Eternal Image:19 perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, Only of the Only,20 God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word,21 Wisdom comprehensive 22 of the constitution of all things, and Power formative 23 of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal.24 And there is One Holy Spirit, having His subsistence 25 from God, and being made manifest 26 by the Son, to wit to men:27 Image 28 of the Son, Perfect Image of the Perfect;29 Life, the Cause of the living; Holy Fount; Sanctity, the Supplier, or Leader,30 of Sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father, who is above all and in all, and God the Son, who is through all. There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged.31 Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude 32 in the Trinity;33 nor anything superinduced,34 as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; 35 but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abideth ever." (A Declaration of Faith)

Gregory the Wonder-worker - "But some treat the Holy Trinity in an awful manner, when they confidently assert that there are not three persons, and introduce (the idea of) a person devoid of subsistence. Wherefore we clear ourselves of Sabellius, who says that the Father and the Son are the same [Person] . . . We forswear this, because we believe that three persons--namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--are declared to possess the one Godhead: for the one divinity showing itself forth according to nature in the Trinity establishes the oneness of the nature" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 8 ).

Gregory the Wonder-worker "But if they say, 'How can there be three Persons, and how but one Divinity?' we shall make this reply: That there are indeed three persons, inasmuch as there is one person of God the Father, and one of the Lord the Son, and one of the Holy Spirit; and yet that there is but one divinity, inasmuch as . . . there is one substance in the Trinity" (A Sectional Confession of Faith, 14).

Gregory the Wonderworker "We therefore acknowledge one true God, the one First Cause, and one Son, very God of very God, possessing of nature the Father's divinity,--that is to say, being the same in substance with the Father; and one Holy Spirit, who by nature and in truth sanctifies all, and makes divine, as being of the substance of God. Those who speak either of the Son or of the Holy Spirit as a creature we anathematize" (A Sectional Confession of Faith 15).

Gregory the Wonderworker "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is His subsistent Wisdom and Power and Eternal Image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, Only of the Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word, Wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and Power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith). http://www.goarch.org/resources/fathers

Please read this link for more details on Gen 1:26 etc and etc:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-tex ... is1-26.htm
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Babylos

Are you just playing stupid or do you think I am? I am asking you for the link where you lifted the above quote from.

Look up thevanquish29 opening post on page 1 the fifth entry:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7

krystyna wrote:B.W.

ou are in error:

74 AD The Letter of Barnabas...

I see no Biblical reference to verse/s stating that God is Trinity. All of your long post shows how some people were trying to figure out how to accommodate the new religion into their belief system coming up with many ideas.

This is my challenge to you.

Explain why I should consider that Jesus lied in clear texts stating that the eternal life is for them who know the Father the only true God and his anointed?
Did Jesus lie that he had a God; the same God as I have?
Why I should consider that people who were trying to accommodate the new religion into their belief system had authority over God’s word; could throw it into the dust bin and murder those who wanted nothing else but the truth from God’s word?

Do you think that I would trade God’s word for man-made stories?

Here is your challenge - prove that the early Church fathers did not expound upon the nature of the Godhead before 300 AD...

And yes, Jesus himself declared himself God in this you need to actually read the bible as well as the early Church Fathers in context...

The Old Testament is truly Trinitarian as well too...

The Challenge is not for us but to you to wade through the evidence presented and see why the writers stated what they said...
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