Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

outlaw wrote: Thats my whole point if there's a god that saves and is capable of intervening but chooses to stand by and watch, then thats a god i choose to not want a bar of, it's a god not worthy of my praise, it's an evil god. I choose what i put my faith in and i cannot possibly put it in this type of god i would be crazy to do so.
Why didn't god stand by and watch good and evil play out when he flooded the earth?
Why do believers claim that god saves people if it's so important for him to let the battle of good and evil run?

I won't, like you do, make excuses for this god and perform mental gymnastics in order to hold onto my precious belief that god is just, because when i read where god isn't just then im honest with myself about it i don't use 'cognitive dissonance' (if you don't know what it is look it up)

And if that is how YOU view God then I agree that your god is NOT worthy of praise and worship, so don't.
Just realize that this god you have made up is just that, YOUR god.
It isn't mine.
If you do not want a personal relationship with God, which is what it means to be a Christian, then you don't have to have it.
It is really quite simple:
Either We say to GOD, "Thy will be done".
OR
God says to Us, "Thy will be done".

It seems to me that you have already made up your mind and have said to God, "No interested" and God, being God has accepted your rejection and has said to you, " Thy will be done".

Now, being the God that I KNOW He is, I know that He is still there for you if you ever decide to come around BUT if you don't then He will NOT come into your life like a "gang buster".
That is not His way.

You are free to accept or reject Him, the choice is and always has been and always will be yours.

Just make sure you realize WHO and WHAT you are rejecting and WHY, that's all.

Outlaw wrote, it was starhunter that said god has to sit back as the battle of good and evil comes to a head, not me

Starhunter wrote:

Outlaw wrote, it was starhunter that said god has to sit back as the battle of good and evil comes to a head, not me

"Sit back" is not what I said or intended.

He has to let the whole battle between good and evil, which is a real one, to come to a head.

Why did God create us with sin in the world?

This is a perpetual question for theologians and laity alike. When we look at the world and recognize that a holy and infinitely perfect God has created us, we can appreciate His majesty and wonder. But, it is impossible for us to ignore the fact that this world is far from perfect. There is sin in it. Why, then, if God is infinitely perfect and powerful, did He create a world and allow the fall to occur--to contaminate it?

The Bible doesn't give us a specific answer to this question, but I would like to offer this possible answer as food for thought.

God did not lack anything in Himself that prompted His creative act. He wasn't lonely or bored. To say such a thing about Him would be to imply He is not eternally self-sufficient and perfect. But, if God is perfect and doesn't need anything, why would He then create us, the ones that have fallen into sin, and the universe in which we live? What purpose would it serve?

I suspect the answer lies within God's nature and a few clues spread throughout God's Word. To begin with, God is love (1 John 4:16), and the nature of love is to give. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son . . . " I cannot help believing that the most natural quality of love is to give, to be other-centered, and, according to Jesus' own words, to give of one's self to the point of death. John 15:13 is where Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

According to Jesus, there is no greater demonstration of love than self-sacrifice to the point of death. Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God can and will be the one who demonstrates the greatest act of love. I cannot see God allowing a mere creation to demonstrate this in a better way than He. It would be a necessary outcome of His own nature and a necessary manifestation in any universe He created that the two greatest commandments referenced by Jesus to love God and love your neighbor would be supremely demonstrated by none other than God Himself. Jesus was God in flesh who loved the Father perfectly, and He loved us completely by laying down His life for us. This is the greatest and most perfect act of love according to Jesus.

If this is true, then it just might be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one for whom to die and no reason to die for them. There could be no reason to die if there were no need for an atonement. There would be no need for an atonement if there were no sin. If there was no fall, there would be no sin.

Therefore, perhaps it is possible that God created the universe with "free will" creatures in it who would fall into sin. Without this fall, ultimately no death would be necessary to atone for them; and without that death, the greatest act of love could not be demonstrated. Also, this would mean that the truest and most perfect quality of love would not be fulfilled. Would this then mean that God would not be perfectly fulfilled without having given of Himself? I don't know. But I can't help wondering that for God to truly express His perfectly loving nature, He Himself had to be one who laid His life down for others. For this to happen, He allowed sin to exist in this world.

Furthermore, I suspect that it was Jesus Himself in the garden who walked with Adam and Eve. I base this upon Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He states that no one has ever seen the Father. Yet, we know that God appeared in the Old Testament (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-8; Acts 7:2; etc.). If it was God who was seen and it wasn't the Father, then it must have been Jesus. Why do I bring this up? Because after Adam and Eve sinned, God Himself (Jesus?) shed the blood of an animal in order to cover them with animal skins. This shedding of blood was instituted by God as a prophetic typology of the true and final sacrifice that God (Jesus) would carry out so many thousands of years later when He laid His life down as the perfect demonstration of His loving character. The redemption of mankind was always in the mind of God and was planned and carried out by God as a manifestation of the eternal love He has for His people. This love was made complete in the death of Christ. Also, I suspect that this is what is hinted at in Heb. 13:20 with the reference to the "blood of the eternal covenant" that some theologians think is reference to God's eternal plan of salvation made within the Trinity before the universe was made. This covenant was the inter-Trinitarian arrangement to redeem mankind through the sacrifice of Christ.

Therefore, I conclude that God may very well have made a universe in which sin existed so that He Himself could show the greatest and most perfect act of love by laying down His life for His friends.

Outlaw wrote:Im simply trying to figre out why this god gets praised for sacrificing itself to itself to get around a rule it made itself.

melanie wrote:Geez outlaw suck it up princess. Do you need a little more whoa is me, whoa is us. Interesting that a person would prefer to be a systematic robot, not having the ability to think for yourself but under the delusion that you are all because you don't want to experience any pain or suffering. Guess what. That's life. You can question why till the cows come home but in the meantime you better just suck it up and you know what, grow and learn from it. Stop being a tanty throwing, bad attitude twat and instead of trying to blame God take a look at yourself and see where your pain and suffering cause clearly you've had a bit otherwise you would not be carrying on like this can lead you into growth and depth as a person. It will make you or break you. Suffering will become the most vital life lesson and give you abundance in empathy and compassion or it will turn you into an angry, resentful person looking at every other person and/ or God to blame because you let it beat you and eat you away. Why me? Why us? It's not fair! You talk about life lessons we teach our children, how about stop passing the blame to others and thinking your so hard done by and sucking it up. And you know what that is exactly what you are doing, ohh the irony, not wanting to, or not having the conviction to stand next to your faults and screw ups and owning and claiming them. Take responsibility, if you want to turn your back on God, that's fine, don't accept His grace and pay the price.
You know what my son the other week did cop the blame for something his mate did, he got detention, he took the punishment because his friend is having a hell of a hard time ATM, parents going through a divorce and he didn't want to burden him. I could have gone to the school and told them what happened but I didn't, I could have told my son, stay away from this kid because he let you take the fall and knew it was unfair. But I didn't. Sacrifice when others are weak is the highest level of friendship, faith, love, compassion, and understanding. It takes strength and depth of character to firstly see this then a whole other level to implement it. Perhaps that is the real reason you fail to 'see' the absolute love and beauty in sacrifice, because you just don't have it in you mate. So who's fault is that??

Suffering will become the most vital life lesson and give you abundance in empathy and compassion

Take responsibility, if you want to turn your back on God, that's fine, don't accept His grace and pay the price

Lonewolf wrote:

Why did God create us with sin in the world?

This is a perpetual question for theologians and laity alike. When we look at the world and recognize that a holy and infinitely perfect God has created us, we can appreciate His majesty and wonder. But, it is impossible for us to ignore the fact that this world is far from perfect. There is sin in it. Why, then, if God is infinitely perfect and powerful, did He create a world and allow the fall to occur--to contaminate it?

The Bible doesn't give us a specific answer to this question, but I would like to offer this possible answer as food for thought.

God did not lack anything in Himself that prompted His creative act. He wasn't lonely or bored. To say such a thing about Him would be to imply He is not eternally self-sufficient and perfect. But, if God is perfect and doesn't need anything, why would He then create us, the ones that have fallen into sin, and the universe in which we live? What purpose would it serve?

I suspect the answer lies within God's nature and a few clues spread throughout God's Word. To begin with, God is love (1 John 4:16), and the nature of love is to give. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son . . . " I cannot help believing that the most natural quality of love is to give, to be other-centered, and, according to Jesus' own words, to give of one's self to the point of death. John 15:13 is where Jesus said, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends."

According to Jesus, there is no greater demonstration of love than self-sacrifice to the point of death. Since God is love (1 John 4:16) and there is none greater than He, I conclude that God can and will be the one who demonstrates the greatest act of love. I cannot see God allowing a mere creation to demonstrate this in a better way than He. It would be a necessary outcome of His own nature and a necessary manifestation in any universe He created that the two greatest commandments referenced by Jesus to love God and love your neighbor would be supremely demonstrated by none other than God Himself. Jesus was God in flesh who loved the Father perfectly, and He loved us completely by laying down His life for us. This is the greatest and most perfect act of love according to Jesus.

If this is true, then it just might be that God had to create the universe so that the fall would be included in His plan for the very purpose of demonstrating and manifesting His perfect character: Love! To demonstrate the very greatest part of His nature of love, He would have to die for someone else. This could not be done if there was no one for whom to die and no reason to die for them. There could be no reason to die if there were no need for an atonement. There would be no need for an atonement if there were no sin. If there was no fall, there would be no sin.

Therefore, perhaps it is possible that God created the universe with "free will" creatures in it who would fall into sin. Without this fall, ultimately no death would be necessary to atone for them; and without that death, the greatest act of love could not be demonstrated. Also, this would mean that the truest and most perfect quality of love would not be fulfilled. Would this then mean that God would not be perfectly fulfilled without having given of Himself? I don't know. But I can't help wondering that for God to truly express His perfectly loving nature, He Himself had to be one who laid His life down for others. For this to happen, He allowed sin to exist in this world.

Furthermore, I suspect that it was Jesus Himself in the garden who walked with Adam and Eve. I base this upon Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He states that no one has ever seen the Father. Yet, we know that God appeared in the Old Testament (Gen. 17:1; 18:1; Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-8; Acts 7:2; etc.). If it was God who was seen and it wasn't the Father, then it must have been Jesus. Why do I bring this up? Because after Adam and Eve sinned, God Himself (Jesus?) shed the blood of an animal in order to cover them with animal skins. This shedding of blood was instituted by God as a prophetic typology of the true and final sacrifice that God (Jesus) would carry out so many thousands of years later when He laid His life down as the perfect demonstration of His loving character. The redemption of mankind was always in the mind of God and was planned and carried out by God as a manifestation of the eternal love He has for His people. This love was made complete in the death of Christ. Also, I suspect that this is what is hinted at in Heb. 13:20 with the reference to the "blood of the eternal covenant" that some theologians think is reference to God's eternal plan of salvation made within the Trinity before the universe was made. This covenant was the inter-Trinitarian arrangement to redeem mankind through the sacrifice of Christ.

Therefore, I conclude that God may very well have made a universe in which sin existed so that He Himself could show the greatest and most perfect act of love by laying down His life for His friends.

http://carm.org/questions/about-god/why ... -sin-world

outlaw wrote:Ill ask these questions again because no one seems to want to answer them.

Would you teach your child that it's ok for him/her, after doing something wrong at school to allow another child to voluntarily accept his/her punishment?

Why do we expect our children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to our own?

Why is it immoral to place our burden on a school mate, while at the same time think it moral for us to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus?

If you believe your a sinner then be a man and pay the price for it instead of a coward and hide behind the innocent Jesus, if you believe you did the crime then do the time, that is JUSTICE.

1over137 wrote:

Outlaw wrote:Im simply trying to figre out why this god gets praised for sacrificing itself to itself to get around a rule it made itself.

Are you?

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote:Ill ask these questions again because no one seems to want to answer them.

Would you teach your child that it's ok for him/her, after doing something wrong at school to allow another child to voluntarily accept his/her punishment?

Why do we expect our children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to our own?

Why is it immoral to place our burden on a school mate, while at the same time think it moral for us to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus?

If you believe your a sinner then be a man and pay the price for it instead of a coward and hide behind the innocent Jesus, if you believe you did the crime then do the time, that is JUSTICE.

It is not fair, the innocent paying for the guilty. Neither is it fair for the father to get burned while saving his child who started the house fire. It's a paradox.

Paying for our own sins is justice. That cannot be a life time and then a natural death, that's not paying for sins, it has to be death on the first instance of sin.

By the way, your questions above are one set which you bring up, and the other set is about doubting the mind as to whether it is able to judge between good and evil.

You can't let us bounce back and forwards between these two sets. First you have to make up your mind as to whether God has given us a sense of right and wrong or not, then we can go on with the other questions.
Remember Jesus said "if you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children..."

But if God has not given us a conscience, then we cannot know what is good and evil.

Paying for our own sins is justice. That cannot be a life time and then a natural death, that's not paying for sins, it has to be death on the first instance of sin.

First you have to make up your mind as to whether God has given us a sense of right and wrong or not, then we can go on with the other questions.

outlaw wrote: It's more than not fair it's totally immoral, no it's not a paradox. if it's not fair why do you accept it?

So now your the one who decides what and when the punishment should be, are you? Well were's your justice, when do you pay?

No i don't think god has given us a sense of right or wrong,i think we develop it ourselves.

outlaw wrote:Ill ask these questions again because no one seems to want to answer them.

Would you teach your child that it's ok for him/her, after doing something wrong at school to allow another child to voluntarily accept his/her punishment?

Why do we expect our children to step up to their responsibilities while at the same time not stepping up to our own?

Why is it immoral to place our burden on a school mate, while at the same time think it moral for us to ride freely to heaven on the death of jesus?

If you believe your a sinner then be a man and pay the price for it instead of a coward and hide behind the innocent Jesus, if you believe you did the crime then do the time, that is JUSTICE.