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Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:11 am
by neo-x
Jac3510 wrote:@neo,
RE: not having eternal life NOW: "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life" (Jesus; John 6:47). Jesus does not say beliers WILL have it, but that they have it NOW.
RE: never dying if one has eternal life NOW: "“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (Jesus; John 11:25-26). Jesus acknowledges that believers die even thought believers will never die. We can debate what that means, and the obvious meaning is that the never dying comes in the resurrection; that is, the never physically dying comes with the glorified body of the believer and not in this corrupted body. However, whether you accept or reject that interpretation doesn't matter, because the fact is that Jesus Himself acknowledges that believer (who HAVE eternal life) can physically die. As such, your deduction (that having eternal life means there will be no physical death) is invalid in some way. I've suggested how that is based on this verse, but, again, reject that interpretation if you like. You still have to deal with the biblical data as we have it.
I see what you are saying. In truth nothing has changed since adam died except that believers have eternal life. But my point was that we can't say eternal life to mean truly ever lasting eternal the kind we will have when we are with Christ. We die once for sure. So whatever Christ meant, it begins after we die. Not before that. And that is why we have faith and hope, otherwise if we are already LIVING eternal life than what's to hope for or have faith in?
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:17 am
by RickD
Mallz,
None of that has anything to do with OSAS. OSAS doesn't say we should know anyone else's salvation. Osas simply means that once one trusts Christ for salvation, one is saved. It's God's promise. You can believe all that mumbo jumbo you just posted, or you can believe John 3:16. Believe in Christ, and you have eternal life. Period.
As for me, I choose to believe scripture. I choose to believe that when God promises something, He is faithful. Even when I'm not faithful to Him. That's grace. And it's pretty damn amazing grace, if you ask me.
Whether you realize it or not, you are preaching works to keep your salvation. If only I remain faithful...if only I keep believing...
No! Despite our sin, despite our unfaithfulness at times, God is still faithful!
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:18 am
by RickD
neo-x wrote:Jac3510 wrote:@neo,
RE: not having eternal life NOW: "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life" (Jesus; John 6:47). Jesus does not say beliers WILL have it, but that they have it NOW.
RE: never dying if one has eternal life NOW: "“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (Jesus; John 11:25-26). Jesus acknowledges that believers die even thought believers will never die. We can debate what that means, and the obvious meaning is that the never dying comes in the resurrection; that is, the never physically dying comes with the glorified body of the believer and not in this corrupted body. However, whether you accept or reject that interpretation doesn't matter, because the fact is that Jesus Himself acknowledges that believer (who HAVE eternal life) can physically die. As such, your deduction (that having eternal life means there will be no physical death) is invalid in some way. I've suggested how that is based on this verse, but, again, reject that interpretation if you like. You still have to deal with the biblical data as we have it.
I see what you are saying. In truth nothing has changed since adam died except that believers have eternal life. But my point was that we can't say eternal life to mean truly ever lasting eternal the kind we will have when we are with Christ. We die once for sure. So whatever Christ meant, it begins after we die. Not before that. And that is why we have faith and hope, otherwise if we are already LIVING eternal life than what's to hope for or have faith in?
The resurrection!!!!
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:27 am
by Jac3510
neo, I hear what you are saying and all the good intentions in the world. But any time we contradict Jesus' actual words, we need to seriously consider repenting. I say this to you publicly only because you have made your case publicly. Jesus said that whoever believes HAS everlasting life. He did NOT say whoever believes WILL have it. If we do not have it right now--if we only have a promise of it--then Jesus' words are wrong as stated. And, no offense, I'll believe Jesus over you any day. I'd believe Jesus over me any day. I hope you come to do the same.
And just for anyone else who might be reading (since neo has said he doesn't want to discuss this further), neo is wrong that we don't have eternal life right NOW on the basis that we die so therefore whatever we get we get after our physical deaths. Jesus said "God is not the God of the dead but of the living." And that is why Jesus can say,
though a person die, yet shall he live. The dead in Christ are not dead. They are sleeping. Only the dead outside of Christ are dead. The dead in Christ are not dead because they HAVE everlasting life. And that is why OSAS not only is true but MUST be true if the gospel is true. Put more strongly still, if we can lose our salvation, then the gospel is not true and is no gospel at all, because then Jesus lied (or was wrong, take your pick) when He said that believers 1. have 2. everlasting 3. life (there's a three point sermon or Bible study for you right there by the way, folks).
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:32 am
by Mallz
OSAS doesn't say we should know anyone else's salvation.
But it implies it.
How is the term used to describe possible fallen fellow Christians? They never believed to begin with. That implies one can know God and not walk away from Him. I know that's not true. And its not works that saves, its faith in Christ. What happens when you lose faith in Christ? What happens when you stop believing? What happens when you know who He Is and decide to walk away? Even worse, decide to spite Him? Is our sentience any better off than the angels? Is it not possible to spite Him? Do we not have self-determination?
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:41 am
by Mallz
Whether you realize it or not, you are preaching works to keep your salvation. If only I remain faithful...if only I keep believing...
You're right, I'm not seeing this. Please explain how I'm doing it. (I'm being sincere)
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:52 am
by Mallz
Can we not reject Christ once believing in Him?
Isn't this counter to self-determination?
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:04 pm
by PaulSacramento
Mallz wrote:Can we not reject Christ once believing in Him?
Isn't this counter to self-determination?
This sometimes falls under the "no true christian" argument:
If a person rejects Christ then he/she was never a "true" christian.
I don't hold that view.
Rejecting Christ and not believing in Him are not the same thing.
I think that a person that says they were a Christian and now says they don't believe Christ existed, was never a Christian to begin with, not a believing one, not one annointed by the HS.
BUT a believer that choose to reject Christ, that is another matter.
A person like that KNOWS that Christ exists and knows the gospel of Grace BUT chooses to reject it, that person may have been a true Christian ( they believed in Christ, His birth, death and resurrection and His Grace and gospel).
I think that there are things that can happen that can cause a person to reject Christ ( on an emotional level more than any other I think).
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:09 pm
by Philip
This is why I can't agree with the term 'once saved always saved'. It comes across arrogant. It's exclusive; elitist.
Yes, it IS elitist, only in the sense that although EVERYONE is give the opportunity to eternally join God's elite Family, that there also is ONLY one way into that family (through Jesus!).
The crazy thing is, is I agree with most of what all of you are saying. But I think the truth is beyond OSAS. I believe OSAS has to do with the predestination only God knows. And I already explained previously what I believe that predestination to be. But it doesn't end there.
Pre-destination is not God merely His foreknowing who will accept His offer of salvation (truly available to EVERYONE), but God chooses us (Christians). And He chooses us based upon His Holy values, righteousness, love, mercy and will. God did not merely leave salvation up to our blundering, bumbling, blind, supposed ability to find Him.
A lot of people see people who APPEAR to have all of the exterior signs (all discernible to man) that would lead one to conclude that they are truly saved and that their minds and hearts are sold out to Jesus. But we CAN'T see or know that. And so just because we see those with all of the expected appearances and indications of one being a Christian, and when they turn from Him, does not mean that they were ever TRULY saved. I will say this, I've not come across LONG-time, seemingly mature in their faith, ADULT Christians who subsequently fall away from their faith. I've seen it a lot with youth and younger people. But not with older, knowledgeable, striving Christians long in their faith. That's a hard act to INTENSELY maintain over decades and not be sincere. But maybe some of you have seen such?
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:32 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Mallz wrote:Once saved always saved...
We were created to be with God. And we were written to be with God since before our existence. But we have to choose if we
want to be with Him. Angels were with Him, and walked away. Adam and Eve were with Him and walked away. People in this life
CAN know Him, and walk away. The gift of eternal life with God is always there. We can never find it and in doing so always
reject it. We can never know it and be unable to comprehend it, and gain it through innocence. We can know it, and reject it.
And in even rejecting it, it is still there. But once your mortal coil is over, your fate is sealed. You CAN walk away from
God, and come back. You CAN accept His salvation, then throw it away. The only temporal reference for salvation is in tune
with the only predestination, He knows who will desire it, and keep it. And in tune with His justice He places each human
creation in time and geography to best let them come to Him. To recognize it, to embrace it, to love it.
God never takes back what is ours to accept. But we can turn our back on God. We can throw away His gift. But His gift is ever
there. Waiting for you to accept it. In the life of a man, he can be saved at any time in his life, through acceptance (faith
in Christ). Discipleship occurs in this life when man accepts his salvation. But if man never accepts salvation, discipleship
will never occur. It doesn't matter at what time man has faith in Christ. For salvation is ever waiting, in our mortal realm.
There is no definite guarantee to generalize on humanity. Only God has that, and knows who has it. Who have it through El-
Shaddai. Through the Christ, through the Father, through the Holy Spirits guidance.
This is why I can't agree with the term 'once saved always saved'. It comes across arrogant. It's exclusive; elitist. And
wrong at face value. How can we claim to know the salvation of another man? To presume our intellects can claim no one
could possibly walk away from God after knowing Him. God IS unknowable. Only He knows all of our hearts. And the hearts of
angels rejected Him to His face. The hearts of our mother and father rejected Him. The hearts of our ancestors slew Him. Our hearts
constantly persecute Him.
But our hearts are deceptive. Our flesh is sewn in sin. Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
The crazy thing is, is I agree with most of what all of you are saying. But I think the truth is beyond OSAS. I believe OSAS has to do with the predestination only God knows. And I already explained previously what I believe that predestination to be. But it doesn't end there.
Anyways, this is how I feel.
Wow! So much you say I'm shouting Amen! But a few of your points just isn't biblical I agree God is the judge on who's saved or not but I do not have a reason biblically to think a person can lose their salvation.I got into a debate with a pastor's wife one time and I think it was a way to scare people into doing things she thought they should be doing and so she could say you can lose your salvation but it is not biblical and I don't believe a truly saved born again person will ever totally turn his back on God and walk away,it is impossible to 1st John makes it clear that we cannot sin as his seed abides in us which is hard to believe if you are a Christian struggling with sin but it sais we cannot sin and this is because we cannot lose our salvation.1st John 3:9.
I actually think it is the opposite if you believe a person can lose their salvation then it is you judging them and thinking in your mind you're better than them.Remember a person can say they believe in Jesus,read the bible,go to church and live by it and not ever be saved by Jesus as these are hypocrites acting a part like the ancient actors that put on plays in the Roman colosseum.A true Christian cannot be a hypocrite it is the actors that are hypocrites and only God knows who they are.Think of Jesus when he said "Not every one that calls me Lord,Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;but he that doeth the will of my father which is in heaven."
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:20 pm
by RickD
RickD wrote:
OSAS doesn't say we should know anyone else's salvation.
Mallz wrote:
But it implies it.
How is the term used to describe possible fallen fellow Christians? They never believed to begin with. That implies one can know God and not walk away from Him. I know that's not true. And its not works that saves, its faith in Christ. What happens when you lose faith in Christ? What happens when you stop believing? What happens when you know who He Is and decide to walk away? Even worse, decide to spite Him? Is our sentience any better off than the angels? Is it not possible to spite Him? Do we not have self-determination?
Osas doesn't imply it at all.
I don't know if person x is saved. If I ask him a few questions, and assume his answers are honest, I can tell if he's a believer.
According to osas:
If someone trusts Christ for salvation, he is saved. He has eternal life. Nothing can change that.
Whatever you mean by fallen, it has no bearing on salvation, once one is saved.
If a believer would happen to lose faith, or stop trusting Christ, he may reap the results of his actions in this life. Walking away from God usually leads one to live a more sinful life. And that believer may lose heavenly rewards too.
RickD wrote:
Whether you realize it or not, you are preaching works to keep your salvation. If only I remain faithful...if only I keep believing...
Mallz wrote:
You're right, I'm not seeing this. Please explain how I'm doing it. (I'm being sincere)
Because a believer being unfaithful, is a sin. And we didn't gain salvation from stopping sinning, and we don't lose it because we sin. Otherwise, we'd all lose salvation, because we all still sin.
Can we not reject Christ once believing in Him?
Isn't this counter to self-determination?
It's possible for a believer to reject Christ. But He won't reject us! He promises He will never leave us nor forsake us.
As far as self determination, I don't know what you mean.
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:59 pm
by melanie
Assuming that we are talking about 'true' christians. People who sincerely accepted the gift of salvation how bad or far do they have to stumble before God gives up on them?
The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?
At what point does God turn His back on us and walks away?
That's what we do.
That's our humanity.
We turn on back and give up on ourselves, on life, on spouses, family, friends and God. When it gets too tough, when we are fed up, when we cant take it anymore we do the walking.
But God doesn't.
Our sin places a distance between ourselves and God that is too great for any of us to ever bridge. We cannot get to God, so God came to us, He did through Jesus, he bridged the gap. Forever. It is done. We can't ever truly distance ourselves from Gods love no matter how hard we try and outrun Him. His promise is eternal, crosses all boundries and bridges all gaps.
Gods love for us never falters, if it did then He could give up on us and walk away but His love is eternal.
Praise be to God, we don't deserve it but we are blessed beyond comprehension.
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:14 pm
by RickD
melanie wrote:Assuming that we are talking about 'true' christians. People who sincerely accepted the gift of salvation how bad or far do they have to stumble before God gives up on them?
The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?
At what point does God turn His back on us and walks away?
That's what we do.
That's our humanity.
We turn on back and give up on ourselves, on life, on spouses, family, friends and God. When it gets too tough, when we are fed up, when we cant take it anymore we do the walking.
But God doesn't.
Our sin places a distance between ourselves and God that is too great for any of us to ever bridge. We cannot get to God, so God came to us, He did through Jesus, he bridged the gap. Forever. It is done. We can't ever truly distance ourselves from Gods love no matter how hard we try and outrun Him. His promise is eternal, crosses all boundries and bridges all gaps.
Gods love for us never falters, if it did then He could give up on us and walk away but His love is eternal.
Praise be to God, we don't deserve it but we are blessed beyond comprehension.
Well said Melanie.
Are you sure you're a true blonde?
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:52 pm
by melanie
RickD wrote:melanie wrote:Assuming that we are talking about 'true' christians. People who sincerely accepted the gift of salvation how bad or far do they have to stumble before God gives up on them?
The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?
At what point does God turn His back on us and walks away?
That's what we do.
That's our humanity.
We turn on back and give up on ourselves, on life, on spouses, family, friends and God. When it gets too tough, when we are fed up, when we cant take it anymore we do the walking.
But God doesn't.
Our sin places a distance between ourselves and God that is too great for any of us to ever bridge. We cannot get to God, so God came to us, He did through Jesus, he bridged the gap. Forever. It is done. We can't ever truly distance ourselves from Gods love no matter how hard we try and outrun Him. His promise is eternal, crosses all boundries and bridges all gaps.
Gods love for us never falters, if it did then He could give up on us and walk away but His love is eternal.
Praise be to God, we don't deserve it but we are blessed beyond comprehension.
Well said Melanie.
Are you sure you're a true blonde?
Ha, well my hairdresser helps out
Re: OSAS
Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:56 pm
by RickD
melanie wrote:RickD wrote:melanie wrote:Assuming that we are talking about 'true' christians. People who sincerely accepted the gift of salvation how bad or far do they have to stumble before God gives up on them?
The preacher who has his public life splashed all over the tabloids for having an affair? The women who experiences too much loss that she questions Gods existence or goodness, the man who struggles with self acceptance and drinks to numb the doubt? The youth who cannot get past childhood trauma and sticks a needle in his vein too often till he becomes a slave to it?
At what point does God turn His back on us and walks away?
That's what we do.
That's our humanity.
We turn on back and give up on ourselves, on life, on spouses, family, friends and God. When it gets too tough, when we are fed up, when we cant take it anymore we do the walking.
But God doesn't.
Our sin places a distance between ourselves and God that is too great for any of us to ever bridge. We cannot get to God, so God came to us, He did through Jesus, he bridged the gap. Forever. It is done. We can't ever truly distance ourselves from Gods love no matter how hard we try and outrun Him. His promise is eternal, crosses all boundries and bridges all gaps.
Gods love for us never falters, if it did then He could give up on us and walk away but His love is eternal.
Praise be to God, we don't deserve it but we are blessed beyond comprehension.
Well said Melanie.
Are you sure you're a true blonde?
Ha, well my hairdresser helps out
Ha! I knew it! You're to smart to be blonde! The best of both worlds. The looks of a blonde, and the brains of a brunette.
Signed,
