Evidence for God from Science

Stu wrote:Outlaw, remember it was mankind who was making use of slaves. God just gave the rules by which they should be treated.

So basically slavery is okay as long as you follow certain guidelines laid down by God. This is what you are saying right? Its not wrong to own people as slaves, its just wrong to beat them to the point of death because thats what God says right?

RickD wrote:

outlaw wrote:
Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

Outlaw,

You are looking at the ANE through 21st century glasses. We need to be careful comparing the way it was in the ANE, to how it is today.

In the verse in question, it describes the punishment if a slave dies. Slaves were property, usually to pay a debt, or were sold into slavery to pay for food for families. You need to understand there was no middle class as we understand it in westernized nations today. Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Do you honestly think that saying that something was a way of life makes it okay? Suppose they had a ritual back then where all virgin daughters were taken to the village center on their 15th birthday to be gang-raped by all the men of the village. Would you say its okay because it was a way of life? Sometimes a peoples way of life can just be wrong plain and simple. Slavery was a way of life in the US 200 years ago, does that mean that it was okay? Yet the fact that we know slavery is wrong and yet the bible gives instructions on how to punish slaves instead of simply saying slavery is wrong, dont do it, is how we can know that the bible is not the inspired word of God. The bible has no problem giving instruction for worshiping false idols, which was also a way of life, so if the bible can explicitly say dont murder, don't steal, dont covet, dont worship false gods, and etc., why not just say dont own other people as property? Saying it was a way of life is a terrible excuse to explain how the bible could basically condone something we all know to be a terrible thing. And it does condone it because not only does it explicitly state that its okay to beat slaves as long as you dont kill them, it also instructs slaves to obey their masters. Indisputable evidence that the bible is not the word of some ultimate arbiter of good and evil.

fact: if the bible is the word of God and God is good, he would have explicitly stated somewhere in the bible that the institution of slavery was evil. People keep saying that it was different in those times but we all know that if you have a child and let them get away with little things, they will push the envelope further and further. As a parent you dont let your kids do things simply because "hey thats what kids do." If a teacher calls and says your son hit a girl in the face, would you just say "boys will be boys and he'll grow out of it" or would you discipline your son and explain to him why what he did is wrong? The people that started the American institution of slavery were largely very religious people and the fact that the bible never explicitly states that slavery was evil and a sin probably played a huge role in why slavery was allowed to grow to the scale it did. These early americans figured that God allowed slavery in the bible, the bible commanded slave to obey their masters, and nowhere did it say that slavery was wrong so it must be okay. So by God never stating anywhere in the bible that slavery was wrong, and giving Israelites provisions for owning slaves, he is directly responsible for the American institution of slavery because the Americans largely looked to the bible to know what was right and what was wrong.

So either God really isnt that good, he doesnt exist and the bible is not the inspired word of God, or he does exist and the bible is still not the inspired word of God and is just a book written by ancient men, written with the ideas and philosophies that had at that time.

MAGSolo wrote:

Stu wrote:Outlaw, remember it was mankind who was making use of slaves. God just gave the rules by which they should be treated.

So basically slavery is okay as long as you follow certain guidelines laid down by God. This is what you are saying right? Its not wrong to own people as slaves, its just wrong to beat them to the point of death because thats what God says right?

Some people chose to be slaves.

It is important to understand the CONTEXT of slavery in the OT.
Slavery as we typically think of it ( people being kidnapped and so forth) is explicitly wrong:
Exodus 21:16 states, “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.” God not only forbids slavery, He gives them the death penalty for it.

What about the rest?
This passage gives some light to the subject:
Leviticus 25:39-43 says, “If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.”

See, what is being condoned is SERVITUDE as a form of debt payment.

In Exodus 21:2 it states, “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.”

Here it says that if you buy a Hebrew servant, they are not to be considered a slave, and even after they buy this servant they are to go free in the seventh year “without paying anything.” That is nothing like a slave at all. Incidentally, the term slavery in the Hebrew does not mean what we think of slavery today. The word slave in the Old Testament actually refers to a position of being subordinate in the social ladder of the society. Any Hebrew scholar knows this. For example Abraham had servants. In the majority of places that slaves are mentioned in the Old Testament this is the proper context. To know that, one must read the entire chapter or better yet, the entire book to find out what the contextual meaning of the word slavery (better rendered “subordinate”) means.

While one can, IF they so choose to, see this as God condoning and accepting slavery of ALL types, it is clearly NOT the case.

MAGSooutof context wrote:
So either God really isnt that good, he doesnt exist and the bible is not the inspired word of God, or he does exist and the bible is still not the inspired word of God and is just a book written by ancient men, written with the ideas and philosophies that had at that time.

Or, you're wrong, the bible is inspired, and you have no idea what you're babbling about.

PaulSacramento wrote:It is important to understand the CONTEXT of slavery in the OT.
Slavery as we typically think of it ( people being kidnapped and so forth) is explicitly wrong:
Exodus 21:16 states, “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.” God not only forbids slavery, He gives them the death penalty for it.

What about the rest?
This passage gives some light to the subject:
Leviticus 25:39-43 says, “If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.”

See, what is being condoned is SERVITUDE as a form of debt payment.

In Exodus 21:2 it states, “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.”

Here it says that if you buy a Hebrew servant, they are not to be considered a slave, and even after they buy this servant they are to go free in the seventh year “without paying anything.” That is nothing like a slave at all. Incidentally, the term slavery in the Hebrew does not mean what we think of slavery today. The word slave in the Old Testament actually refers to a position of being subordinate in the social ladder of the society. Any Hebrew scholar knows this. For example Abraham had servants. In the majority of places that slaves are mentioned in the Old Testament this is the proper context. To know that, one must read the entire chapter or better yet, the entire book to find out what the contextual meaning of the word slavery (better rendered “subordinate”) means.

While one can, IF they so choose to, see this as God condoning and accepting slavery of ALL types, it is clearly NOT the case.

So the slaves you were allowed to beat so long as you didnt beat them to the point of death, which slaves were those?

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It is important to understand the CONTEXT of slavery in the OT.
Slavery as we typically think of it ( people being kidnapped and so forth) is explicitly wrong:
Exodus 21:16 states, “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.” God not only forbids slavery, He gives them the death penalty for it.

What about the rest?
This passage gives some light to the subject:
Leviticus 25:39-43 says, “If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.”

See, what is being condoned is SERVITUDE as a form of debt payment.

In Exodus 21:2 it states, “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.”

Here it says that if you buy a Hebrew servant, they are not to be considered a slave, and even after they buy this servant they are to go free in the seventh year “without paying anything.” That is nothing like a slave at all. Incidentally, the term slavery in the Hebrew does not mean what we think of slavery today. The word slave in the Old Testament actually refers to a position of being subordinate in the social ladder of the society. Any Hebrew scholar knows this. For example Abraham had servants. In the majority of places that slaves are mentioned in the Old Testament this is the proper context. To know that, one must read the entire chapter or better yet, the entire book to find out what the contextual meaning of the word slavery (better rendered “subordinate”) means.

While one can, IF they so choose to, see this as God condoning and accepting slavery of ALL types, it is clearly NOT the case.

So the slaves you were allowed to beat so long as you didnt beat them to the point of death, which slaves were those?

Passage please...not sure to what you are referring...

Ah, Welcome back, MAGSolo...we need some comedic relief!

I see that you're still not the sharpest tack in the box...

FL

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It is important to understand the CONTEXT of slavery in the OT.
Slavery as we typically think of it ( people being kidnapped and so forth) is explicitly wrong:
Exodus 21:16 states, “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.” God not only forbids slavery, He gives them the death penalty for it.

What about the rest?
This passage gives some light to the subject:
Leviticus 25:39-43 says, “If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.”

See, what is being condoned is SERVITUDE as a form of debt payment.

In Exodus 21:2 it states, “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.”

Here it says that if you buy a Hebrew servant, they are not to be considered a slave, and even after they buy this servant they are to go free in the seventh year “without paying anything.” That is nothing like a slave at all. Incidentally, the term slavery in the Hebrew does not mean what we think of slavery today. The word slave in the Old Testament actually refers to a position of being subordinate in the social ladder of the society. Any Hebrew scholar knows this. For example Abraham had servants. In the majority of places that slaves are mentioned in the Old Testament this is the proper context. To know that, one must read the entire chapter or better yet, the entire book to find out what the contextual meaning of the word slavery (better rendered “subordinate”) means.

While one can, IF they so choose to, see this as God condoning and accepting slavery of ALL types, it is clearly NOT the case.

So the slaves you were allowed to beat so long as you didnt beat them to the point of death, which slaves were those?

Passage please...not sure to what you are referring...

"When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property."

Actually it looks like you can beat them to death, just so long as they wait a couple of days to die instead of dying right away. So which slaves are these?

Yup, Mag's been told where to look for an understanding of this - one, by the way - that reveals in no way that God has ever been pro-slavery or has not desired ALL human's treat others well - be they a slave or free. But he'd rather post continued rabbit-chasing questions that he THINKS make him look clever. It's clear that he's not truly seeking answers or the truth of things.

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

MAGSolo wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It is important to understand the CONTEXT of slavery in the OT.
Slavery as we typically think of it ( people being kidnapped and so forth) is explicitly wrong:
Exodus 21:16 states, “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.” God not only forbids slavery, He gives them the death penalty for it.

What about the rest?
This passage gives some light to the subject:
Leviticus 25:39-43 says, “If a countryman of yours becomes so poor with regard to you that he sells himself to you, you shall not subject him to a slave’s service. He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. He shall then go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall go back to his family, that he may return to the property of his forefathers. For they are My servants whom I brought out from the land of Egypt; they are not to be sold in a slave sale. You shall not rule over him with severity, but are to revere your God.”

See, what is being condoned is SERVITUDE as a form of debt payment.

In Exodus 21:2 it states, “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.”

Here it says that if you buy a Hebrew servant, they are not to be considered a slave, and even after they buy this servant they are to go free in the seventh year “without paying anything.” That is nothing like a slave at all. Incidentally, the term slavery in the Hebrew does not mean what we think of slavery today. The word slave in the Old Testament actually refers to a position of being subordinate in the social ladder of the society. Any Hebrew scholar knows this. For example Abraham had servants. In the majority of places that slaves are mentioned in the Old Testament this is the proper context. To know that, one must read the entire chapter or better yet, the entire book to find out what the contextual meaning of the word slavery (better rendered “subordinate”) means.

While one can, IF they so choose to, see this as God condoning and accepting slavery of ALL types, it is clearly NOT the case.

So the slaves you were allowed to beat so long as you didnt beat them to the point of death, which slaves were those?

Passage please...not sure to what you are referring...

"."

Actually it looks like you can beat them to death, just so long as they wait a couple of days to die instead of dying right away. So which slaves are these?

The question should not be WHICH slaves are these but WHAT did the slave do since beating is a punishment BUT beyond that, look at the context of the WHOLE chapter:

Personal Injuries
12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 But if he did not lie in wait for him, but God let him fall into his hand, then I will appoint you a place to which he may flee. 14 If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may die.

15 “He who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

16 “He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death.

17 “He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

18 “If men have a quarrel and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but remains in bed, 19 if he gets up and walks around outside on his staff, then he who struck him shall go unpunished; he shall only pay for his loss of time, and shall take care of him until he is completely healed.

20 “If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished. 21 If, however, he survives a day or two, no vengeance shall be taken; for he is his property.

22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

26 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. 27 And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.

28 “If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished. 29 If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. 30 If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him. 31 Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule. 32 If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

33 “If a man opens a pit, or digs a pit and does not cover it over, and an ox or a donkey falls into it, 34 the owner of the pit shall make restitution; he shall give money to its owner, and the dead animal shall become his.

35 “If one man’s ox hurts another’s so that it dies, then they shall sell the live ox and divide its price equally; and also they shall divide the dead ox. 36 Or if it is known that the ox was previously in the habit of goring, yet its owner has not confined it, he shall surely pay ox for ox, and the dead animal shall become his.

You are looking at CAUSAL Laws, laws that state IF something is done, then this is the punishment.

Note that verse 18 ( striking a person) and verse 20 ( striking a slave) has the same punishment for the same crime for either slave of "free person".

Never forget that the Laws were an accommodation to a people that had centuries of slavery as their only source of "legal guidance".
One can argue that these laws were far better and more "danced" than any of the neighboring laws.

Look at verse 26, that a slave would go free if He/She is struck and loses an eye or a tooth !