Doctrine of Hell

[RickD]

B. W.,

One one hand, you wrote:

As for the current Hell's location, since it is for spiritual beings it is a logical conclusion that it exists in the realm of the spirit world. The future lake of fire then would logically exist in both spiritual and a new physical state too due to the nature of the second resurrection and and great white throne judgement.

Which I tend to agree with.

And on the other hand, you wrote:

With Jesus it is clear on the matter of Hell with human beings it is all, 'in these days of compromise we may seek to minimize or modify the attribute,' of hell but no matter what, it is a real place and I agree with Jesus on this - avoid at all hazards!

The underlined is what I'm questioning. Maybe I'm questioning semantics, but isn't a "place" only in the physical realm?
I'm certainly agreeing that hell is real. But I think it's spiritually real. God is spirit, and He is no less real to me than something physical.

I'm only questioning this because I think it makes a difference.

Anyone?

[jpbg33]

Well if you are using human resining then you are making a big mistake. Because our resining is flawed. We were not given the knowledge to figure it out for our selves we were given the bible and the bible dose say God created hell " Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ". God made hell for the devil and he angels and not only that but the bible says you will burn forever in hell "Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.". So when you go there it is forever.

[RickD]

Well if you are using human resining then you are making a big mistake. Because our resining is flawed. We were not given the knowledge to figure it out for our selves we were given the bible and the bible dose say God created hell " Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: ". God made hell for the devil and he angels and not only that but the bible says you will burn forever in hell "Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.". So when you go there it is forever.

jpbg,

That doesn't help at all.

First, maybe God created hell, maybe He didn't. But Matthew 25:41 doesn't say, "God created hell". It says, "that everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels". Which very well could be referring to the lake of fire, not hell.

And second, You are wrongly equating hell with the lake of fire, by saying, "you will burn forever in hell".

Rev 20:14 KJV
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


If hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, hell is not the lake of fire.

[B. W.]

B. W.,

One one hand, you wrote:

As for the current Hell's location, since it is for spiritual beings it is a logical conclusion that it exists in the realm of the spirit world. The future lake of fire then would logically exist in both spiritual and a new physical state too due to the nature of the second resurrection and and great white throne judgement.

Which I tend to agree with.

And on the other hand, you wrote:

With Jesus it is clear on the matter of Hell with human beings it is all, 'in these days of compromise we may seek to minimize or modify the attribute,' of hell but no matter what, it is a real place and I agree with Jesus on this - avoid at all hazards!

The underlined is what I'm questioning. Maybe I'm questioning semantics, but isn't a "place" only in the physical realm?
I'm certainly agreeing that hell is real. But I think it's spiritually real. God is spirit, and He is no less real to me than something physical.

I'm only questioning this because I think it makes a difference.

Anyone?

Isn't heaven a physical place on a spiritual level?

That's my answer...

For me, it is not about semantic's but rather of existence in a different state i.e. one's spiritual state of being after one dies and the reality of where in this Spiritual state one eventual resides in, is a real place.

So am I hearing you suggest that it is easy to believe in Heaven as a real place but not hell?
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[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
Isn't heaven a physical place on a spiritual level?

Do you realize what you said?

For me, it is not about semantic's but rather of existence in a different state i.e. one's spiritual state of being after one dies and the reality of where in this Spiritual state one eventual resides in, is a real place.

I agree. Except for the underlined. By definition, isn't place only physical, not spiritual?

So am I hearing you suggest that it is easy to believe in Heaven as a real place but not hell?

No. Heaven as well as hell, is spiritual. And both are real. Just not physically real.

Like the difference between the brain, and the mind. Both are real. Only one is physical.

[jpbg33]

When I said "So when you go there it is forever" I was referring to the fact that you burn forever. I know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It said that in the verse I used. You burn in hell as well Jesus said this " Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: ". And another places where the bible says there is fire in hell " Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ".

[B. W.]

Think of the bibical principle found in Isaiah 24:22 ESV and what it means: They will be gathered together, As prisoners are gathered in the pit, And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished. NKJV

Where did this holding center come from, who made it, when?

All things in this universe came in existence through God's hands, thus God made the pit/prison/sheol when the covering cherub rebelled (Ezekiel 28:13-17) to contain and hold till a future date as Rev 20:12-15 indicates as Isaiah 24:22 points out all according to God's own attributes of being absolutely just to all way beyond what any mortal man or woman can fathom.

This pit/prison/sheol that now exist, exists as a holding center, or the same principle a county jail serves, to restrain and confine till the criminals future trial and sending to the big house at a future date and time (the lake of fire). God's justice demands an immediate hearing (a Judgment), then, the criminal is taken to the holding center (Pit), till the future trial date comes ((White Throne Judgment).

It is in fact very simple to understand that in order to face the hearing judgment of God, the judge, one is in their spiritual state and therefore reasonable that the pit/prison, and its cells are real in spiritual existence so there the criminal awaits the final verdict set for a future date and time to carry out the sentence in full.

This may come as a shock to some but the America criminal justice system is based upon this biblical model. A criminal is caught, booked at the county jail, has a speedy hearing before the Judge, trail date is set for a future date that can take a year or two to schedule in advance and during that time before trial, the criminal is held in the county Jail. After future Trial is over, appropriate and just punishment send the criminal to the big house (State Prison) to serve the sentence in full.

However, with God exposing the true nature of darkness within an unredeemed person at the initial hearing, is sent to pit/prison justly stewing in all the did, said, and thought in sheol. So that by the time of the final verdict there is no hope of being found innocent on a technically as the books will be open exposing what one really is like on the inside.

This is real, the bible says it real and Jesus says it is real - so why do we desire to deny it's reality?

And lastly Rick, the afterlife is real just as the physical world is real, just on a different level where you feel, you hear, you taste, you touch, you think, you experience life in a whole new degree. It is not about word semantics and play on words as you suggest and attempt to make out. One day you will experience it yourself so I am not worried. When we see each other in heaven we can meet and discuss further how real the spiritual world is... but for now, remain in New England Patriot bliss... You can't let the air out me

Blessings !!!
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[RickD]

When I said "So when you go there it is forever" I was referring to the fact that you burn forever. I know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It said that in the verse I used. You burn in hell as well Jesus said this " Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: ". And another places where the bible says there is fire in hell " Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ".

You derided me for using human reasoning when I said that it's possible that God didn't create hell. And you said human reasoning is faulty. And you claimed that the bible says God created hell, and proceeded to show a verse that doesn't say God created hell.

Were you using flawed human reasoning when you interpreted those verses?

[jpbg33]

I believe that God created it. But even if he didn't create it. The Bible says he prepared it for the devil and his angels. I think that implies that he made it. Because if someone said they prepared a cake for a party. I would assume they made it or I would assume they took a cake that was made and fixed it up for the party, ether way could be right but with hell both assumptions lead to God creating it. Because God created all thing. So if he prepared something from his creation then technically he made it. Human reasoning works for actual literal inturportation. The bible was written so we could understand what is says. Where Human reasoning is wrong is when we take something from the bible and say it doesn't mean what is says. That it really means something else less severe or more severe. I have know problem with someone saying that it is not actual fire as we know it but something that burns like fire and is hot like fire. but to say that it is not basically the same consequence as fire that Jesus just said fire so that we wouldn't want to go there is wrong.

[B. W.]

When I said "So when you go there it is forever" I was referring to the fact that you burn forever. I know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It said that in the verse I used. You burn in hell as well Jesus said this " Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: ". And another places where the bible says there is fire in hell " Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ".

You derided me for using human reasoning when I said that it's possible that God didn't create hell. And you said human reasoning is faulty. And you claimed that the bible says God created hell, and proceeded to show a verse that doesn't say God created hell.

Were you using flawed human reasoning when you interpreted those verses?

Sorry you took it as deriding you. I was not deriding you. Only attempting to explain something within the sphere of human understanding the best human language can convey of spiritual truth I could use. There is no way to convey that the spiritual world after death has it own profoundly unique physical qualities to it as well due the nature of the spiritual. So you think it is all ghost walking through walls and playing harps on clouds and has no substance? Sadly, too many think this way.

In fact this mortal life is temporal. The Spiritual life to come is more real than this one and has its own qualities. Rather difficult to explain to those who have not encountered it. So for that, you claim I derided you - no not for that.. I apologize if you thought so...
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P.S.

However, now about those Patriots - you know Manning can't throw a deflated ball very well, don't you? The Other Teams, unlike the Patriots, are trained on regulation filled Footballs! So with that

[RickD]

When I said "So when you go there it is forever" I was referring to the fact that you burn forever. I know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. It said that in the verse I used. You burn in hell as well Jesus said this " Mar_9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: ". And another places where the bible says there is fire in hell " Mat_5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. ".

You derided me for using human reasoning when I said that it's possible that God didn't create hell. And you said human reasoning is faulty. And you claimed that the bible says God created hell, and proceeded to show a verse that doesn't say God created hell.

Were you using flawed human reasoning when you interpreted those verses?

Sorry you took it as deriding you. I was not deriding you. Only attempting to explain something within the sphere of human understanding the best human language can convey of spiritual truth I could use. There is no way to convey that the spiritual world after death has it own profoundly unique physical qualities to it as well due the nature of the spiritual. So you think it is all ghost walking through walls and playing harps on clouds and has no substance? Sadly, too many think this way.

In fact this mortal life is temporal. The Spiritual life to come is more real than this one and has its own qualities. Rather difficult to explain to those who have not encountered it. So for that, you claim I derided you - no not for that.. I apologize if you thought so...
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P.S.

However, now about those Patriots - you know Manning can't throw a deflated ball very well, don't you? The Other Teams, unlike the Patriots, are trained on regulation filled Footballs! So with that

B. W.,

I think you need to check the prescription of your glasses! Carefully look at the top of the quote I posted. I'll give you a hint. I was replying to someone else, unless you changed your name to jpbg33!

[jpbg33]

Sorry you took it as deriding you as well. I have no intuition in doing that. I just like to talk about things like this and sometime get carried away with how I say something. I am not trying to affined anyone here and I apologize to anyone that I may have.

[RickD]

Sorry you took it as deriding you as well. I have no intuition in doing that. I just like to talk about things like this and sometime get carried away with how I say something. I am not trying to affined anyone here and I apologize to anyone that I may have.

Jpbg,

I wasn't offended in the least. It takes a lot more than that to offend me.

I was merely trying to point out that you were being inconsistent. You were dismissing human reasoning on one hand. And on the other hand, you are using your reasoning to interpret scripture.

[jpbg33]

Good I didn't think I affined anyone that was why I didn't apologize earlier but sense others were apologizing I just wonted everyone to know that I'm not trying to affined ether.

But Back to the topic when I am referring to human reasoning being used wrong. It is when we take something from the bible and say that the consequences the bible say are there are more of less sever or that the bible say this but it really means this. Then that human reasoning is wrong. Not when we are reading the bible and understand what it is saying.

[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
And lastly Rick, the afterlife is real just as the physical world is real, just on a different level where you feel, you hear, you taste, you touch, you think, you experience life in a whole new degree. It is not about word semantics and play on words as you suggest and attempt to make out. One day you will experience it yourself so I am not worried. When we see each other in heaven we can meet and discuss further how real the spiritual world is... but for now, remain in New England Patriot bliss... You can't let the air out me

B. W.,

1) I never said hell isn't real. I'm questioning if it is physical or spiritual.

2) I'm not attempting to make it into semantics. I was wondering if I was just arguing semantics because more than one person said hell was a "place". And again, I questioned the usage of the word "place", if hell is not physical.

And

3) stop hating on the patriots just because Peyton Manning keeps choking in the playoffs.