Evidence for God from Science

I lump it in with the various forms of the prosperity gospels.

I know you do FL, but i don't care. You're just another man, with his thoughts on God, as I am. Take your path, I'll take mine and if never they meet, well, let's hope they might at some time in the future.

I've just made a wonderful friend in here and although she will agree with you, what I have said, it will not be held against me. This will sustain me with love and respect that will always be held in a higher regard than division.

Just sayin ...

I think we all need to find our own path to God. I think it will be different for each of us. If our path leads us to God, does it really matter which particular branch of Christianity we follow?

Surely God knows the best way to lead us all?

ES,

Ok. As far as the meaning of "communion of the saints", I think we both agree that saints refers to all believers, past, present, and future. I think we disagree on the meaning of communion. I see communion as a kind of sharing. And communion of saints, simply means that all saints, share a common salvation in Christ. I don't see it as talking to those who have died.

And the title "Mother of God" isn't biblical. As FL said, Mary is the mother of the man Jesus. She has no claim to being the mother of his Godly nature. It may seem like semantics, but it's a very important distinction.

ES wrote:
I hope you'll still let me stay after this.. but it is how i feel and am unashamed to love her and say her creation and perfection is a great sign of God's love for us.

The fact that you think I or any other person here would ban you from this forum because of your Catholic beliefs, troubles me. We are all Christians because of our trust in Christ. I just hope you understand that while we do disagree on these things, our trust in Christ makes us brothers in Christ. And I hope while we disagree, our love of Christ still shows through.

Storyteller wrote:I think we all need to find our own path to God. I think it will be different for each of us. If our path leads us to God, does it really matter which particular branch of Christianity we follow?

Surely God knows the best way to lead us all?

I agree with you on both points. All modern religions within Christianity are human creations. They are nothing more than institutionalized forms of worship. As such, they are all off in some way. The only religion instituted by God is ancient Judaism, and it no longer exists; indeed, it has been rendered invalid by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. (Modern Judaism in all its forms is a perversion of the original.)

So, in your quest for God and His Will for you, just do what the Bereans did (Ac 17:11) and verify the Scriptures to see if what is being said by well-meaning Christians is true to the Word.

FL

StoryT: I like the Mysteries, pondering on them, feeling them brings me closer to God.

Is there not much that is mysterious about God to men? Of course! Contemplating God is extremely mysterious to us. Except where and as He has already clearly communicated on many issues. But "FEELING" mysteries or anything else is no way to gauge the truth of something. Scripture warns us of how our feelings can be inaccurate and lead us into wrongful decisions, of how easy it is for us to deceive ourselves. We often believe all kinds of nonsense that seems perfectly right to us. You can NOT/NEVER accurately FEEL the truth. It stands apart from our feelings. Do you know what Gnosticism is? It's all about following the mysterious and hidden meanings. And yet it's practitioners will always assert some truth that comes from the mysterious - and then equating them with truths of God. Using your feelings to determine God's truths is a VERY dangerous technique of discovering them.

Is there not much that is mysterious about God to men? Of course! Contemplating God is extremely mysterious to us. Except where and as He has already clearly communicated on many issues. But "FEELING" mysteries or anything else is no way to gauge the truth of something. Scripture warns us of how our feelings can be inaccurate and lead us into wrongful decisions, of how easy it is for us to deceive ourselves. We often believe all kinds of nonsense that seems perfectly right to us. You can NOT/NEVER accurately FEEL the truth. It stands apart from our feelings. Do you know what Gnosticism is? It's all about following the mysterious and hidden meanings. And yet it's practitioners will always assert some truth that comes from the mysterious - and then equating them with truths of God. Using your feelings to determine God's truths is a VERY dangerous technique of discovering them

.

I agree that his clear and direct communication with us through the bible is the very best way to gain knowledge of Him. The contemplation of Him and His ways are ardently put forth as good works.

I can only assume you are unaware of the mysteries Storyteller is talking about, as each and every one of them come from scripture. Meditation on scripture will surely bring us all closer to Him and with a little practice, bring light where darkness once prevailed. There's nothing hidden about these mysteries, there's only reflection on the bible verses themselves.

It seems to me that many Christians prop their denomination up above Jesus and what his word says and they ignore the bible and what it says in order to go along with their denomination.Now if we have been saved by Jesus we are brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of our denomination but I as a Christian I choose to do what the bible says and not what my or any other denomination teaches or believes that are doctrines of men that are not of God.

I also think the Catholics here should stop denying they pray to Mary because we can read the words in the prayer,so just admit you do pray to Mary,no need to explain.But know it is not biblical when you do it,if you think it is OK ? then I'm not going to try to change your mind about it or bash you for it,but it is not biblical is all I think about when I think about it and I would never do it just like I would not think you are not saved if you don't speak in tongues like many Pentecostals think or believe the gifts of the spirit died out when the apostles died out like Baptists do.I go by the bible, God's word, to the best of my abilities.

I think the body of Christ should be united more than divided but doctrines of men,seem to get in the way.

RickD wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I came across this in my online reading:

The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other word – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved. God has so graced Her from the moment of conception to do His most perfect will and because of this He has entrusted Her to be the Mediatrix of ALL grace. In other words; all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of the Virgin Queen.

I don't want any "Protests" people. But, sincerely to my Catholic brethren, I'd be interested in a "please explain"?

K, it seems to me, that writer has gone outside of Catholic doctrine with some of those statements.

I could be wrong, but I don't think catholic doctrine teaches:
1) mary is the spouse of the HS
2) mary ultimately brings us to God
3) Mary is our salvation
4) all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of Mary

I'd like to hear a response from someone catholic about this too. But I'm afraid it won't happen here. There have been too many "catholic bashing" threads. I can't blame them if they don't want to get into it again.

No doubt, they went extreme in their veneration of Mary, saying it is "only through Her that we are saved."

Looking at the about page on that website I quoted from, these are just a group of Catholics.
However, one has a masters in Theology and BA in philosophy. Others there just appear very passionate about their Roman Catholic faith.
My wife's mother would easily accept such beliefs and I dare say many casually reading would not really pick up on the details of what was wrong.

Storyteller picked it up straight-away, and I was hoping she would. But, I did extract it out and point out an issue.
It can be more difficult if people are just reading casually to pick up on sweet sounding words that are in fact awry.

Mary is no doubt blessed above all women, because she gave birth to and mothered Jesus who was God come to us in the full form of man.
One can love that, and even associate with and be drawn to Mary because of such and the more feminine motherly side.
Mary as theotokos (mother of God) emphasises Christ's human and divine natures. That Christ, while fully God, was truly one of us.

One of my favourite lecturers when I studied was Catholic (in fact I had two favourite lecturers and both were Catholic). Anyway, during class breaks I had many casual discussions over coffees.
He once joked over a Catholic magazine article to do with Mary: 'We don't really pray to Mary. We just "pray" to Mary but we never call it praying.'

Catholics will often protest against "Protestants" or "Christian Fundamentalists" as though this is an argument they bring.
However, I say this is a very real issue within the Catholic Church itself and what Catholics do in fact believe.
Shouldn't something be more proactively done within the Church to correct such misunderstandings?

The veneration of Mary unto the point she is actually receiving worship that only God should receive, and even taking Christ's place as we saw in these very passionate Catholics -- who are no doubt unashamed to proclaim their beliefs (however misguided some beliefs are in that they even usurp glory that belongs to Christ alone). I have also seen it in the Philippines, not just the veneration of Mary, but veneration of RCC-declared saints. For me, I felt the presence of evil, what people were doing was veneration unto worship only intended for God.

It can be apologetically coloured and responded to, said that such misunderstanding of the true Church position.
There are more theologically-astute Catholics who really understand Christianity and the misunderstandings many fellow Catholics may hold.
These may and I say may draw a line with themselves to pick and choose what is right while IGNORING THOSE ELEMENTS that they don't like, even when they see it displayed in fellow Catholics.
But, by just ignoring those elements they don't like, aren't they just being their own little "Protestant" now within the RCC amongst their brothers and sisters?
Indeed, it's not just these more theologically astute Catholics who turn a blind eye, but the RCC does. Correction and education is needed.
BUT, I'm often left with the feeling that it really doesn't matter what one believes, as long as they identify with or belong to the Catholic Church.

You know, Martin Luther and many Catholics at the time (because "Protestants" did not exist) saw much wrong with Pope Leo X.
What he was doing with indulgences, his lifestyle and the like where it is believed that he even reveled in homosexual relationships.

Luther only wanted to bring reform to within the Church. From my understanding, it was not his desire to cause schism and be excommunicated.
The Pope at the time refused to change and excommunicated Luther. Interestingly, thanks to good Catholics like Luther, a Counter-Reformation was happening and happened.
The saving grace to the RCC at the time, is that they had such people stand up, even if the Pope of the time ex-communicated such and made them an enemy to the RCC.
Luther's own 95 theses were primarily aimed at the Church's and indeed Pope's abuse on indulgences, wherein it was claimed one could be saved through such.

I'd encourage any Christian to look at both sides at the time. Which side do you fall down on? Pope Leo X or Luther?
Theologically, Luther was correct and the Church at large during this time was wrong, greatly erring from the Apostles' teachings and insulting Christ.
In my opinion, Luther better led Christians during a time when the ordained Pope clearly wasn't following Christ and leading the whole church astray.

I do not say this to incite or attack Catholicism. I really admire and respect Catholics here like Byblos, Bippy and more recently EssentialSacrifice.
But, there are the historical truths of the matter which are often buried beneath prejudices and quibbles simply because one identified as Catholic or something other.

Catholics and Mary: Many understand that Mary was a mere (yet extremely blessed and honored) mortal and SINFUL woman, and that only is God to be prayed to. But an enormous number of Catholics do not understand this.

But make no mistake:

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ..." (1 Timothy 2:5)

The CC doctrine of Papal Infallibility is another CC teaching that I find extremely dangerous.

But, to be fair, let's not make some "saint" out of Luther, either! Have you ever read the despicable, hateful and violence-advocating statements Luther made about Jews? If you took them out of context of everything else he is known for, such statements would never thought to come from a revered Christian's lips. But, unfortunately, they did. Who knows of the terrible things he incited by them?

And so we have fallible men, correcting fallible men by the light of Christ. Perhaps?

Over the years I've been trying to connect whatever dots there are between the New Testament church and how the RCC came into being and is believed to the True Church

RickD wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

RickD wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:I protest doctrines of men,not church,church is good and doctrines of men are bad.Example would you pray to Mary if the bible does not tell you to?Why do it? There is absolutely no reason to do it and every Christian knows she was the virgin mother of Jesus Christ.

I totally agree abel , since the Virgin Mary is dead and her prayers for us are also dead , and it never says in the bible that the prayers of the righteous carry great weight with a God , no where in scripture does it say that , and since it never says that the prayers of those in heaven who have been made more righteous then we on earth could ever be don't count anyways . Never ask Mary or the saints to pray or anyone else to pray for you.

Glad we could clear the air on that , whew

Bippy,

I think you're missing ACB's mistake. I made the same mistake that he did, so I picked up on it. The doctrine of The Intercession of the saints, is where those on earth, ask saints who have passed away(notice I didn't say dead saints ) to pray for them. It's not praying to saints.

While some catholics, or others, may pray to saints, that's not a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Capiche?

I understand and good point Rick , but isn't the meaning of payer basically a request? And different then worship ?

Bippy,
I think this is a good definition of prayer:

1.
a devout petition to God or an object of worship.

Prayer itself may be different than worship. But prayer is a request/petition to an object of worship.
So, I think both catholics and protestants should agree that we should pray to God only. And that's what I think catholicism teaches. That saints pray to God on the petitioner's behalf.

While I don't necessarily agree that the catholic doctrine of Intercession of the Saints is biblically correct, I'm just trying to portray the doctrine correctly.
And my point was that ACB was incorrect in what the doctrine actually is.

Comprende?

Rick that is one definition of prayer , but here we see the different definitions of prayer, and this was also talked about in an 8th century council which talked about the difference between the old greek words patria and dulia.

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staple ... th-worship


When Catholics say we are praying to God and praying to saints we are talking about qualitatively different things as different as a monkey is to a man. The Protestant generally only has one species in mind when he thinks of prayer—prayer to God that necessarily includes adoration. But one need only pick up a dictionary to discover there are in truth different definitions and therefore different usages of the same word in English.

Prayer:

The act or practice of praying.

An earnest request; entreaty; supplication
(a) humble entreaty addressed to God, to a god, etc.:
(b) a request made to God, etc.; as, her prayer for his safe return;
(c) any set formula for praying, as to God.

Prayer is not, by definition, necessarily equated with the adoration that is due God alone. Prayer can certainly involve an act of adoration when it is directed to God, but the term does not necessarily denote adoration. It can simply mean “an entreaty.”

In Old English we did not have so much of a difficulty here. One could say to another, “Pray tell…” or, “I pray thee my lord…” In fact, the King James Bible gives us many examples of the term “prayer” being used analogous to the way Catholics use it when we “pray” to saints. With a touch of Old English, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in I Kings 2:20, the KJV has her say: “I pray thee, say me not nay.” There was never a question here of whether the King James Bible was presenting Bathsheba as adoring her son as God, or praying to him in a way that is forbidden. It was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints. We certainly honor them when we pray to them. In other words, we do not talk to them like we talk to the boys at the local bar and grill. We show great respect and reverence for them. But we do not adore them as we adore God alone. And we also petition them for their prayers because Scripture makes very clear that we need each other as members of the body of Christ (see I Cor. 12:12-27).

Defining the Difference

The Catholic Church has gone to great lengths to define the essential difference between prayer to God and prayer to saints. You may have noticed that I have been using the English word “adoration” to refer to that honor we give to God alone. I do so because in Catholic tradition when using the English language, “worship” has often been used of honor given to the saints. “Adoration” is the term that has come to be used for God alone. “Worship” and “adoration” are English translations of terms the Church uses in her definitve teaching to define the difference between the honor that is given God and the honor proffered to the saints.

The Second Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, in AD 787, referred to this “adoration” given to God alone as latreia (Greek) or latria (Latin). This comes from a Greek root that we find in Scripture in multiple places and in different words. In Gal. 5:20, for example, we find St. Paul condemning “idolatry”—idolatreia. This term literally means “idol-adoration.” Another example is found in Hebrews 9:6 where the inspired author refers to the ministry of priests in the Old Testament as offering their “ritual duties” to God (Gr.—latreias).

The Council Fathers used latria in this sense of “adoration” that ought only to be given to God. When the Council considered praying to saints, the fathers taught that this prayer should include the honor that is owed them in justice, but never adoration. They chose to use douleia (Greek)or dulia (Latin) in order to make this distinction clear. Hence, we have an entirely different kind of prayer offered to the saints than to God. In the Council’s Doctrinal Definition, the fathers declared:

So in some essence yes Rick there is a huge difference between the prayer latria reserved for God and the Delia reserved for the angels and saintsb.

Kurieuo wrote:I came across this in my online reading:

The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other word – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved. God has so graced Her from the moment of conception to do His most perfect will and because of this He has entrusted Her to be the Mediatrix of ALL grace. In other words; all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of the Virgin Queen.

I don't want any "Protests" people. But, sincerely to my Catholic brethren, I'd be interested in a "please explain"?

Kurieuo , if you ever have any questions about Catholicism , the catholic answers website is usually the best place to go.
This link will should answer the question sufficiently , and no Mary as mediatrix isn't a formally defined dogma of the church and it doesn't mean what most think it means when they first read it . It scared me a lot when it was brought to my attention during an evangelical bible study I was attending for about 8 months when I almost became an evangelical. The bible study increased my respect for me evangelical brethren and also helped them better understand the beliefs of the Catholic Church .

This belief basically says that we can cooperate with God in his plan for us , and all. Christians no matter what the denomination cooperate with God's plan by saying yes to Christ. Mary did it as well when she said yes to God when she responded to the angel Gabrielle

http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articl ... -salvation

Most people forget that my dad was a non denominational Christian while my mom was a devout Catholic .
He didn't understand all the differences between the denominations . He was a simple mountain man from a small village in south lebanon . For him it was as simple as loving Christ and treating others as Christ would want us to treat them. He wasn't a great learned man, but he had a loving heart .

Bippy,

Thanks for that explanation. It's one I had not heard before. A while back, I was discussing with some Catholics about praying to Mary. I was vilified for even suggesting such a thing. To me, it was obvious that at least some Catholics pray to Mary. I've seen it myself. But their argument first, was that Catholics DO NOT pray to Mary. Then I suggested that they do, but maybe they were going against the teachings of the Church by doing so. Then they reluctantly agreed, but it was definitely not promoted by the Catholic Church.

And regarding a different kind of prayer to Mary than to God, I disagree. Looking over some of the prayers to Mary, I can't help but see that they seem to be putting Mary in a place that is equal to God. Here are some examples. I underlined the parts that really stood out to me:

Prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help
Behold, O Mother of Perpetual Help, at thy feet a wretched sinner, who has recourse to thee and trusts in thee. O Mother of mercy, have pity on me; I hear all men call thee the refuge and hope of sinners: be therefore my refuge and my hope. Help me for the love of Jesus Christ: hold out thy hand to a fallen wretch, who commends himself to thee and dedicates himself to be thy servant forever. I praise and thank God, who of His great mercy hath given me this confidence in thee, a sure pledge of my eternal salvation. Alas, it is only too true that in the past I have fallen miserably, because I did not come to thee. I know that with thy help I shall conquer; I know that thou wilt help me, if I commend myself to thee; but I am fearful lest in the occasions of sin I shall forget to call upon thee and so I shall be lost. This grace, then, do I ask of thee; for this I implore thee, as much as I can and know how to do; namely, that in the assaults of hell I may ever run to thy protection and may say to thee: Mary, help me; Mother of Perpetual Help, permit me not to lose my God.

Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, grant me ever to be able to call upon thy powerful name, since thy name is the help of the living and the salvation of the dying. Ah, Mary most pure, Mary most sweet, grant that thy name from this day forth may be to me the very breath of life. Dear Lady, delay not to come to my assistance whenever I call upon thee; for in all the temptations that assail me, in all the necessities that befall me, I will never leave off calling upon thee, ever repeating: Mary, Mary. What comfort, what sweetness, what confidence, what tenderness fills my soul at the sound of thy name, at the very thought of thee! I give thanks to our Lord, who for my sake hath given thee a name so sweet, so lovable, so mighty. But I am not content merely to speak thy name; I would utter it for very love of thee; it is my desire that love should ever remind me to name thee, Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of every grace that God grants us in our misery; it is for this cause that He hath made thee so powerful, so rich, so kind, that thou mightest assist us in our miseries. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners, if they but come unto thee; come once more to my assistance, for I commend myself to thee. In thy hands I place my eternal salvation; to thee I entrust my soul. Enroll me among thy most faithful servants; take me under thy protection and it is enough for me: yes, for if thou protect me, I shall fear nothing; not my sins, for thou wilt obtain for me their pardon and remission; not the evil spirits, for thou art mightier than all the powers of hell; not even Jesus, my Judge, for He is appeased by a single prayer from thee. I fear only that through my own negligence I may forget to recommend myself to thee and so I shall be lost. My dear Lady, obtain for me the forgiveness of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance and the grace to have recourse to thee at all times, O Mother of Perpetual Help.

Hail Mary

Mary, Mother of God # 1
O Mary, Mother of God As You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You. Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy.
Amen

Mary is put in the position of being able to save sinners.

Prayer to Mary, Mother of God # 2
God our Father, may we always profit by the prayers of the Virgin Mother Mary, for You bring us life and salvation through Jesus Christ her Son Who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
Amen.

So, Jesus lives and reigns with Mary and the Holy Spirit, who together are one God? That one threw me for a loop. From the prayers, I can see Mary is put in a place equal to God. But I didn't think anyone would just come right out and say it.

Prayer to Mary, Queen of Heaven
Queen of heaven, rejoice. Alleluia. The Son whom you were privileged to bear, Alleluia, has risen as he said, Alleluia. Pray to God for us, Alleluia. Rejoice and be glad, Virgin Mary, Alleluia. For the Lord has truly risen, Alleluia.

O God, it was by the Resurrection of your Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, that you brought joy to the world. Grant that through the intercession of the Virgin Mary, his Mother, we may attain the joy of eternal life. Through Christ, our Lord. Amen.

Through the intercession of Mary, we may attain the joy of eternal life?

Hail, Holy Queen
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve: to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus, O merciful, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary! Amen.
Search Search Prayers

Mary is holy, and merciful?

Prayer to Our Lady
Remember, O most loving Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to your protection, implored your help, or sought your intercession was left unaided. Inspired with this confidence, we turn to you, O Virgins of virgins, our Mother. To you we come, before you we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, do not despise our petitions, but in your mercy hear us and answer us. Amen.

Prayer to Our Lady, Mother of Mercy
Blessed Virgin Mary, who can worthily repay you with praise and thanks for having rescued a fallen world by your generous consent! Receive our gratitude, and by your prayers obtain the pardon of our sins. Take our prayers into the sanctuary of heaven and enable them to make our peace with God.

Holy Mary, help the miserable, strengthen the discouraged, comfort the sorrowful, pray for your people, plead for the clergy, intercede for all women consecrated to God. May all who venerate you feel now your help and protection. Be ready to help us when we pray, and bring back to us the answers to our prayers. Make it your continual concern to pray for the people of God, foryou were blessed by God and were made worthy to bear the Redeemer of the world, who lives and reigns forever. Amen.

Saint Augustine of Hippo

Prayer to Our Lady of Lourdes
Oh ever immaculate Virgin, Mother of Mercy, Health of the Sick, Refuge of Sinners, Comfortess of the Afflicted, you know my wants, my troubles, my sufferings. Look upon me with mercy. When you appeared in the grotto of Lourdes, you made it a privileged sanctuary where you dispense your favors, and where many sufferers have obtained the cure of their infirmities, both spiritual and corporal. I come, therefore, with unbounded confidence to implore your maternal intercession. My loving Mother, obtain my request. I will try to imitate your virtues so that I may one day share your company and bless you in eternity. Amen.

I hope it's pretty obvious that Mary, by these prayers, is being put in a position that should only be held by God Himself.

All prayers take from this site:http://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31

“Dogmatic Constitution on the Church” (1964), Second Vatican Council

. This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.(15*) By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adjutrix, and Mediatrix.(16*) This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.(17*)

For no creature could ever be counted as equal with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more intimately adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer

All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me"

.

This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered, and the practices and exercises of piety, recommended by the magisterium of the Church toward her in the course of centuries be made of great moment, and those decrees, which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints, be religiously observed.(22*) But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.(23*) Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church. Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Rick, here's some, not all of the Dogma towards the Marian doctrine. She is always beneath Christ. Any prayers said to her are meant only to be heightened by her to the ends of strengthening that prayer to her Son. She is, perhaps best defined as a holy conduit with extra validity and discernment by her special relationship to the Triune God. This was fore told biblically when Mary and Joseph met Simeon at the temple for His presentation: Luke 2: 34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

All the instances of prayer you show above would certainly be disconcerting to any who do not realize the depth and extent the church has gone through to separate the prayer to Mary and the Adoration of God. I hope the 1964 Dogma resolutions I have given help clear the "defined" Mother relationship to us and between us and God. It is difficult to see what very much appears like prayer incongruous to God being directed to Mary, but it exists ... she is always subordinate to God..