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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:24 am
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
According to my understanding, time can be applied to any thought, or action. So if only 1 thing exists; like God according to theists, or the singularity according to scientists, time will begin when that 1 thing begins to act.
I believe I mentioned earlier about if God is before time; that would mean during that period he was immobile, non-thinking; like a bug stuck in amber, and I asked how is this different from non-existence

Ken

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:02 am
by Storyteller
Kenny wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
According to my understanding, time can be applied to any thought, or action. So if only 1 thing exists; like God according to theists, or the singularity according to scientists, time will begin when that 1 thing begins to act.
I believe I mentioned earlier about if God is before time; that would mean during that period he was immobile, non-thinking; like a bug stuck in amber, and I asked how is this different from non-existence

Ken
I don`t think God is before time. He is outside of time.
He is not affected by, or controlled by time. He can`t be, He created it. He cannot be governed or contained by something He creates.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:38 am
by PaulSacramento
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
Time as we know it, yes.
God is outside OUR temporal time.
God is eternal which means He always has existed AS HE IS, always, He is the same at this very moment as He "was" the moment the big bang happened, as he was "before" it happened.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:57 am
by Storyteller
PaulSacramento wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
Time as we know it, yes.
God is outside OUR temporal time.
God is eternal which means He always has existed AS HE IS, always, He is the same at this very moment as He "was" the moment the big bang happened, as he was "before" it happened.
I`m learning :)

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:48 am
by Philip
Ken: I do not see immaterial like thoughts, ideas, numbers, imagination etc. as having an actual existence, they only exist in the context of material beings that are real.

If believing these immaterial things are real is required in order to fit God into the picture, it may very well explain why God doesn’t fit into my picture, but fits perfectly in yours.
But to believe there is no God, you have to at least acknowledge that ALL of the building blocks of ALL things that DID NOT EXIST prior to the Big Bang, immediately and powerfully came into existence at the BB's beginning. So, prior to ALL of the existing things that you apparently will only consider, along that pathway into existence, you must address their prior state - or the stateLESSness/non-existence of ALL physical/material things. You are insisting upon a chained link of the physical for your beliefs of what is possible. But science shows that before the physical, matter, time, space - EVERY known thing - there was absolutely NOTHING that physically existed. So, logically, this means something METAPHYSICAL happened that is far beyond our understanding of things. And it means that ALL physical things and evidences that you will only and must accept came from an invisible, metaphysical realm. As THAT is your only known choice.

There is either an incredible Intelligence that sits outside of and is the Cause of the Universe, OR physically, non-existing, unintelligent "things" (whatever that means) organized themselves with unimaginable complexity, design and sophistication, found a way to move by themselves, and THEN found a way to burst into the physical realm. That's the ONLY choices. If there are others, do tell.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:29 am
by Kenny
Storyteller wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
According to my understanding, time can be applied to any thought, or action. So if only 1 thing exists; like God according to theists, or the singularity according to scientists, time will begin when that 1 thing begins to act.
I believe I mentioned earlier about if God is before time; that would mean during that period he was immobile, non-thinking; like a bug stuck in amber, and I asked how is this different from non-existence

Ken
I don`t think God is before time. He is outside of time.
He is not affected by, or controlled by time. He can`t be, He created it. He cannot be governed or contained by something He creates.
How is it possible to be outside of time? To be outside of something requires it to have parameters; something time doesn’t have. Time doesn’t contain, control, or govern anything; it is simply a tool of measurement. Time can be applied to any action, so if God acts, time can be applied to those actions.

Ken

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:37 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:
Storyteller wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Storyteller wrote:Just a thought here.

Am I right in thinking that scientists think, or claim, that time itself started with the Big Bang? If so, then before the Big Bang there was no time hence God being eternal before, during, and after.
Thinking as I type here but time is a man made thing is it not? When we die, whether you believe in God or not, time no longer exists, it is eternity. Before the Big Bang time didn`t exist, it was eternity.
God is eternal. He has to be timeless.
According to my understanding, time can be applied to any thought, or action. So if only 1 thing exists; like God according to theists, or the singularity according to scientists, time will begin when that 1 thing begins to act.
I believe I mentioned earlier about if God is before time; that would mean during that period he was immobile, non-thinking; like a bug stuck in amber, and I asked how is this different from non-existence

Ken
I don`t think God is before time. He is outside of time.
He is not affected by, or controlled by time. He can`t be, He created it. He cannot be governed or contained by something He creates.
How is it possible to be outside of time? To be outside of something requires it to have parameters; something time doesn’t have. Time doesn’t contain, control, or govern anything; it is simply a tool of measurement. Time can be applied to any action, so if God acts, time can be applied to those actions.

Ken
Terminology Kenny.
Would you prefer "not subject to time"? or "beyond time"?
The point is the God is not part of what we know as the "temporal universe", that is a universe that is subject to the passing of what we call time.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:15 pm
by Kenny
Philip wrote:
Ken: I do not see immaterial like thoughts, ideas, numbers, imagination etc. as having an actual existence, they only exist in the context of material beings that are real.

If believing these immaterial things are real is required in order to fit God into the picture, it may very well explain why God doesn’t fit into my picture, but fits perfectly in yours.
But to believe there is no God, you have to at least acknowledge that ALL of the building blocks of ALL things that DID NOT EXIST prior to the Big Bang, immediately and powerfully came into existence at the BB's beginning. So, prior to ALL of the existing things that you apparently will only consider, along that pathway into existence, you must address their prior state - or the stateLESSness/non-existence of ALL physical/material things.
No, to believe your idea of God doesn’t exist does not require all of that; all that is required is to not find your idea of God as a credible answer.

When I look at the claims of your God, it doesn't sound credible to me. Why would he create a Universe a trillion times larger than planet Earth; and make it all a hostile environment to mankind whom he created in his own image? Did you see how much they had to “suit up” just to go to the moon? They dressed that way to keep from dying out there; and when you go past the moon, it gets worse! Why would he create such a vast area that is useless to us?

I may not know all the right answers, but I can sometimes recognize a wrong answer; and “God did it” sounds like a wrong answer to me.

There is so much about the Universe we just don’t know. We cannot assume what little bit we know about the Universe applies to all of it.

Ken

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:22 pm
by Kenny
PaulSacramento wrote: Terminology Kenny.
Would you prefer "not subject to time"? or "beyond time"?
The point is the God is not part of what we know as the "temporal universe", that is a universe that is subject to the passing of what we call time.
I am assuming when you say "subject to time" you mean to be in a constant state of deterioration; growing old the way all life is on this planet. (my apologies if you meant something else; and please explain) I understand God isn't subject to time as we are, but that doesn't mean time can't be applied to his actions!

Ken

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:07 am
by PaulSacramento
Kenny wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: Terminology Kenny.
Would you prefer "not subject to time"? or "beyond time"?
The point is the God is not part of what we know as the "temporal universe", that is a universe that is subject to the passing of what we call time.
I am assuming when you say "subject to time" you mean to be in a constant state of deterioration; growing old the way all life is on this planet. (my apologies if you meant something else; and please explain) I understand God isn't subject to time as we are, but that doesn't mean time can't be applied to his actions!

Ken
Time can only be applied to His action in OUR temporal universe.
It can't be applied to God per say, only His activities in this universe.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:55 pm
by edwardmurphy
I'll take a run at this. Please understand that I speak only for myself.
Philip wrote:This morning, I happened across a comment about challenging atheists, made by our good friend Bippy: "If I were you I would approach it in a different way. I would actually use an indirect approach to show them that atheism is truly a religion more then a position of logic, reason and science."
Calling atheism a matter of faith is a terrific way to irritate an atheist, but it's not much of an argument. It doesn't take any faith at all to reject dubious claims based on books from antiquity, and that's all it means to be an atheist. Theists have to claim that gods exist, assign them all sorts of powers and responsibilities, credit them with all kinds of wondrous acts and miracles, and worship them with all their might, all the while doing frantic mental gymnastics to try and make modern reality match up with ancient dogma. All that atheists have to do is not believe the hype. It's really pretty simple.
Philip wrote:Yes, atheism cannot know or prove how the universe began, nor how things previously non-existing and immaterial came into being and THEN organized themselves into massive marvels of engineering, functionality, on an unfathomable scale, from microscopic to galactic details. NO KNOWN/VALIDATED (and ALL necessarily SUBSEQUENT) scientific processes or analysis can account for this. And the great complexity, design and functionality - awesomely apparent at the very beginning, when previously non-existing things came into to being - are great evidences for the Intelligent Designer behind it all.


You're assigning all sorts of responsibilities to atheism, when in reality atheism has none. Atheism is simply the lack of belief in the supernatural. That's it. Atheism doesn't have to explain a thing.

Explaining the universe is science, not atheism. Furthermore, science actually has some pretty good explanations for all of the things that you mentioned, and "an Intelligent Designer" isn't one of them. That's not to say that they're guaranteed to be 100% correct with all of their explanations, but that's not a problem either. Science tries to figure stuff out, and when it gets the answer wrong it just keeps on looking. Science tends to get it right, sooner or later. By comparison, religion wrote down all the answers before reading the test, and it shows.
Philip wrote:Given the above, and given that ALL atheists and agnostics - especially those in the West and places that the internet touches - well know that Christianity, Judaism and Islam assert that not only is there a God - or what I call a "god" - behind the universe - but that if you get it wrong as to exactly who He (or "he") is, then your eternity will likely be terrifying, the punishment great, the consequences enormous. And so, especially knowing that vast millions of Christians assert the truth of the Bible - that dying without faith in Christ leads to eternal separation from God, punishment, hopelessness and darkness - this means that such atheists and agnostics realize that IF they are wrong about the God question, then they will be (are) DOOMED. But that if they are correct and there is NO God, then it really doesn't matter, does it? As the only thing that would ultimately matter are their lives before death. As forever afterward, they would share the dreams of rocks!
Eeek, it's Pascal's Wager!

I think that that question really does bother lots of young skeptics, and perhaps fear of damnation even pulls some of them back into the fold. I'm not sure that's much of an argument for a loving god, but that's a different issue.

For those of us who've lived a few years, given the matter some thought, and maybe taken a philosophy class or two Pascal's Wager is a lot less fearsome. Here's why -

First off, and this is the most important point, I don't believe in gods, so I don't believe in heaven, hell, angels, devils, saints, sinners, miracles, and so forth, and I'm not intimidated by supernatural threats or by the clergymen making them. For me it's not a wager. I don't believe the claim. I'm not convinced that your god, or any other god, exists so I'm not worried about what he/she/it/they might do to me. I spend as much time worrying about Hell as you spend worrying about getting trampled by a herd of unicorns.

Besides that, no sincere Christian should ever use Pascal's Wager as an argument. It cheapens you, your religion, and your god. The god that Christians typically describe is majestic. He's perfect and all-knowing. He is love. The god that Christians describe when they stoop to using Pascal's Wager is a halfwit thug. Why is the majestic, all-knowing, perfect creator of the universe trying to extort me into worshiping him? Why not just awe me? And if this is about free will then what's with the extortion? And what kind of moronic god is going to be fooled by the kind of superficial compliance that he'll get from the people who worship him only to avoid punishment? Seriously, have some respect for your creator and stop making that argument.
Philip wrote:So, given the enormous potential consequences of getting the God question WRONG, atheists and agnostics (and other non-Christians), well know they need to have the answer to this question correct. They have to have a strong core belief that they are correct - which I would call "faith." One dictionary defines faith as: "Having complete trust or confidence in someone or something." Now, of course, merely having faith in a thing or a God (or god) does not change whether or not He (he) is a reality or non-reality. He (he or nothing) is either the reality or not. And faith is a gamble of playing the odds, is it not? The unbeliever must have faith that His spiritual/non-spiritual beliefs are valid and will never harm them - certainly not ETERNALLY. This is why so many atheists and agnostics spend vast amounts of time trying to disprove Christianity or that the universe required a God. As, psychologically/emotionally, they want to FEEL that they are correct, even if they can't prove that.
Why "he or nothing?" Are you honestly telling me that the creator of the universe has to have a gender? Why? It seems like he'd be a being of pure energy or something. That would make a lot more sense. Besides, the misogyny inherent in a conservative Christian worldview is one of the reasons that people are increasingly turning away.

Back on topic, I've always thought of faith as belief without evidence. It's impossible to disprove the existence of gods, basically because theists have had millennia to tweak the definition of the word until it was logically unassailable. That's okay. Word games don't concern me. There was a time when the people speaking them inspired fear, not because they were right, but because they were powerful and extremely dangerous. Come to think of it, that's what Pascal's Wager should have been - what if the clergy says you're wrong, nobody can prove anything either way, but they burn you regardless..?
Philip wrote:So, all unbelievers - even atheists and agnostics must have a faith - a core certainty that they have chosen correctly, as to the God question. And they well know this, surrounded by various theists and Christians. But I wonder, given the severe consequences IF they are wrong about the God behind Christianity, are they never stressed or worried about the possibility that they are wrong? Do they not think about that, or the horrific thoughts it should conjure? They also well know that they cannot physically or scientifically PROVE their non-theist beliefs, that their beliefs ALSO require faith. Even agnosticism requires a faith - not just that things are unknowable - but that remaining in the "things are unknowable camp" is nonetheless a rejection and lack of acknowledging God (or ANY god). The Bible calls such people unbelievers in the Lord, not just "unbelievers in anything specific or that is unknowable." And, so, it's not just important that the faith of atheists and agnostics be strong - for their eternal well being - it must be held in something that is actually TRUE. I don't think I could function if I thought I even "might" have the answer to that question wrong. And given the impossible option that ALL that came into being at the Big Bang, with great power, organization, design, functionality, with unfathomable scale of detail - to think ALL of that could happen, uncaused/without an Intelligence behind it all - that would cause me to have a crisis of faith about the enormous uncertainty of my unbelief (IF I were truly honest with the implications of it all). ESPECIALLY given the uncountable chain of uncaused miracles that would have been IMMEDIATELY necessitated by the beginning, content, organization, design, function and scale of the universe.
You're putting way too much weight on my inability to prove that gods don't exist. That's just semantics. Are you familiar with Russel's Teapot? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? The Invisible Pink Unicorn? The dragon in my garage? Eric, the magical god-eating penguin? All of them play the same semantic game, so their existence is just as unassailable as that of any god. That doesn't make them real.

And that's the thing - you have a big, scary idea, and you expect me to take it seriously because you do and you can't imagine otherwise. But I don't. Your big idea is just an idea. It can't hurt me.

I'm also noticing something else. It seems as though you need to live in an orderly universe that was designed by a creator, because the alternative terrifies you. I don't feel that same need for order. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to live in a universe designed just for me - but I see no evidence that that's the case and I can sleep at night without pretending.

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:18 pm
by 1over137
Hey Edward. I have been awed by the laws of Physics that govern our Universe. So wonderful, so simple. Like from a Great Mathematician.
:wave:

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:28 pm
by B. W.
Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:35 pm
by RickD
B. W. wrote:Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.

Talk about blind faith! y#-o

Re: The Faith of Atheists and Agnostics

Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:58 pm
by Kenny
RickD wrote:
B. W. wrote:Edwardmurphy, after reading your responses to Phillip I was struck by how much faith you have in your intellect, reasoning abilities, and self.

Amazing thing faith is, isn't it?
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By definition, atheism is a belief that God doesn't exist.

Talk about blind faith! y#-o
So what would you call a person who doesn't believe in God, but realizes what a person chooses to call God may exist?

Ken