Evidence for God from Science

Nicki wrote:

stuartcr wrote:
When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle. I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket. Do you truly believe that Jonah was in the belly of a sea creature for 3 days?

I find that pretty shocking and sad. Why be a priest if you just want to find ways to explain miracles so there's nothing really special about them anymore, and God's power is denied? The Bible says something about people - it might have been about church leaders - 'having a form of Godliness but denying its power.'

You would have to ask him. Maybe he wanted to explain a miracle in believable terms? Do you truly, without any doubts, believe the story of Jonah?

Of course it wasn't convenient, but that's not what we are talking about is it?

Not until you brought up … When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Not my words, yours … so what are we talking about that doesn't concern convenience if not a lesson in moral guidance ? or, what did you mean ?

People knew how to make wine prior to that miracle, didn't they?

Yes, of course they did, they just didn't do it by getting 6 … 20-30 gallon jars, filling them with water and turning them in to wine. The fermentation process takes substantially longer than it took Jesus to make the wine in front of servants and the master of the wedding, who, coincidentally was surprised that the best wine would be saved for the last of the wedding event.

I am not in the habit of telling an 0-6 Navy chaplain that he is wrong.

I was Navy, AE in the mid seventies. If there were ever an officer, of any branch where RHIP was not a concern, it was the chaplaincy. In any case, whether you are in the habit or not, he's wrong in the eyes of the church and has lead you down an errant path, again, no matter how well intentioned.

Since I was not there I do not know if it actually happened or not.

Whether it happened or not ? Again, only unbelief requires validation of physical proof. Since it happened 2000 years ago, physical proof is difficult, at best, but either way, your physical proof requirement (reproducible) is absurd and feels like your holding God hostage until He physically shows you his power of the miraculous...

I will ask why no biblical type miracles happen when man has good recording devices?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIs8cuIwTo and there are many more available if you take the time to look. This particular one, recorded for posterity, is witnessed by 70,000 people simultaneously.

I do not know what you mean.

You said: As someone earlier pointed out, it is a lesson for those that need reinforcement in their beliefs.
I said it would be lying and a terrible reinforcement of belief. The lies will unravel, belief would be justifiably ruined and the only lesson learned is man is a liar, not to be trusted. Surely you don't believe that Christianity, some 2000 years old could have survived by telling lies ? No, a house divided will fall and lies are of the devil, not God.

That really doesn't matter to me. You and others here listened, right?

Couldn't make sense of this one … ? Listened to what ?

You agreed with me that true belief comes from God, correct? Since God knows what is in someone's heart, and He knows what will happen, then if one is going to believe or not, God already knows, right?

Yes. But because He does doesn't mean you do. Who's living this life of yours, you or God ? Again, someone needs to man up and make a decision for themselves, not rely on what (they think) someone else knows or you think they know. If you really want to know what God knows, prayer, universal love of your fellow man and devotion to His ways will get you there.

niki:
I find that pretty shocking and sad. Why be a priest if you just want to find ways to explain miracles so there's nothing really special about them anymore, and God's power is denied? The Bible says something about people - it might have been about church leaders - 'having a form of Godliness but denying its power.'

stuart:
You would have to ask him. Maybe he wanted to explain a miracle in believable terms? Do you truly, without any doubts, believe the story of Jonah?

It is shocking niki and completely, irreverently lying, traits of neither a Naval officer or of a Catholic priest, both doing intentional harm to another soul.

Maybe he wanted to explain a miracle in believable terms?

because everyone knows lying is always the best avenue to help get someone to the believeable Truth. No, something is largely amiss here in both religious and military terms.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Of course it wasn't convenient, but that's not what we are talking about is it?

Not until you brought up … When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Not my words, yours … so what are we talking about that doesn't concern convenience if not a lesson in moral guidance ? or, what did you mean ?

People knew how to make wine prior to that miracle, didn't they?

Yes, of course they did, they just didn't do it by getting 6 … 20-30 gallon jars, filling them with water and turning them in to wine. The fermentation process takes substantially longer than it took Jesus to make the wine in front of servants and the master of the wedding, who, coincidentally was surprised that the best wine would be saved for the last of the wedding event.

I am not in the habit of telling an 0-6 Navy chaplain that he is wrong.

I was Navy, AE in the mid seventies. If there were ever an officer, of any branch where RHIP was not a concern, it was the chaplaincy. In any case, whether you are in the habit or not, he's wrong in the eyes of the church and has lead you down an errant path, again, no matter how well intentioned.

Since I was not there I do not know if it actually happened or not.

Whether it happened or not ? Again, only unbelief requires validation of physical proof. Since it happened 2000 years ago, physical proof is difficult, at best, but either way, your physical proof requirement (reproducible) is absurd and feels like your holding God hostage until He physically shows you his power of the miraculous...

I will ask why no biblical type miracles happen when man has good recording devices?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBIs8cuIwTo and there are many more available if you take the time to look. This particular one, recorded for posterity, is witnessed by 70,000 people simultaneously.

I do not know what you mean.

You said: As someone earlier pointed out, it is a lesson for those that need reinforcement in their beliefs.
I said it would be lying and a terrible reinforcement of belief. The lies will unravel, belief would be justifiably ruined and the only lesson learned is man is a liar, not to be trusted. Surely you don't believe that Christianity, some 2000 years old could have survived by telling lies ? No, a house divided will fall and lies are of the devil, not God.

That really doesn't matter to me. You and others here listened, right?

Couldn't make sense of this one … ? Listened to what ?

You agreed with me that true belief comes from God, correct? Since God knows what is in someone's heart, and He knows what will happen, then if one is going to believe or not, God already knows, right?

Yes. But because He does doesn't mean you do. Who's living this life of yours, you or God ? Again, someone needs to man up and make a decision for themselves, not rely on what (they think) someone else knows or you think they know. If you really want to know what God knows, prayer, universal love of your fellow man and devotion to His ways will get you there.

It is not convenient to be captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes...but we are talking about miracles, not things that happen all the time.

You must not have understood that I do not believe that happened. Please explain how one could prove an unbelief?

Well, he was old and that was about 30yrs ago, so I imagine he's dead now.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm holding God hostage until He physically shows me his power of the miraculous...

Solar events do not a miracle make. Go stare at the sun for 10 or 15 min, and tell me what you see afterwards.

I see them more as stories, not lies.

You said I can't expect anyone to listen to me if I don't have anything original to say. Since we are conversing, I'll assume what I have to say, is original.

It doesn't matter to me if I know whether I will believe something or not, why would it? When did I ever say I wanted to know what God knows?

it is not convenient to be captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes...but we are talking about miracles, not things that happen all the time.

It is a miracle that God would put himself in the place of the sinner, to be tortured and die and resurrect Himself. This only happened once, not all the time.

You must not have understood that I do not believe that happened. Please explain how one could prove an unbelief?

I said only unbelief requires physical proof. Do you see the difference ?

Well, he was old and that was about 30yrs ago, so I imagine he's dead now.

Hopefully in the hands of God.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm holding God hostage until He physically shows me his power of the miraculous…

when you say you require some physical proof as to the veracity of God's existence, ie: His ability to perform the miraculous, it does feel like your expectation level is curiously held in abeyance until something of the natural world in explanation of the miraculous takes place.

Solar events do not a miracle make. Go stare at the sun for 10 or 15 min, and tell me what you see afterwards.

Yes, solar events of the kind I showed you are absolutely miraculous… no where else at any time has that event occurred except there, exactly when the Virgin Mary said it would. If you look in to the sun for more than a minute and a half you've done permanent damage to the retina (solar retinopathy), so your "go stare in to the sun and see" is very dangerous advice. Unless, you see it here … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHk_Ucw5vHQ in Medjurgorie , another miracle of the sun that defies explanation.

I see them more as stories, not lies.

They are stories of the miraculous. You prefer to believe stories that are lies . More human conjecture (priest or no) in explanation of the miraculous… but lies none the less.

You said I can't expect anyone to listen to me if I don't have anything original to say. Since we are conversing, I'll assume what I have to say, is original.

You said you believed in God but did not think of yourself as Christian and I thought that made you different (original). Now I'm the one who was wrong and find it out after 3 or 4 posts with you. I rarely speak with those who challenge belief because it is such a waste of time… as is this thread, so feel good, I'll be out of your hair shortly.

It doesn't matter to me if I know whether I will believe something or not, why would it? When did I ever say I wanted to know what God knows?

Anyone who posts this many times on a board for Christian thinking must be looking for something. I hope you find it to your satisfaction on your own . I think this conversation has reached an uneventful, flat climax that no longer requires my participation. We'll just go round and round and I hate that. God's peace stuartcr.

If a miracle could be explained then it wouldn't be a miracle would it?

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

it is not convenient to be captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes...but we are talking about miracles, not things that happen all the time.

It is a miracle that God would put himself in the place of the sinner, to be tortured and die and resurrect Himself. This only happened once, not all the time.

You must not have understood that I do not believe that happened. Please explain how one could prove an unbelief?

I said only unbelief requires physical proof. Do you see the difference ?

Well, he was old and that was about 30yrs ago, so I imagine he's dead now.

Hopefully in the hands of God.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm holding God hostage until He physically shows me his power of the miraculous…

when you say you require some physical proof as to the veracity of God's existence, ie: His ability to perform the miraculous, it does feel like your expectation level is curiously held in abeyance until something of the natural world in explanation of the miraculous takes place.

Solar events do not a miracle make. Go stare at the sun for 10 or 15 min, and tell me what you see afterwards.

Yes, solar events of the kind I showed you are absolutely miraculous… no where else at any time has that event occurred except there, exactly when the Virgin Mary said it would. If you look in to the sun for more than a minute and a half you've done permanent damage to the retina (solar retinopathy), so your "go stare in to the sun and see" is very dangerous advice. Unless, you see it here … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHk_Ucw5vHQ in Medjurgorie , another miracle of the sun that defies explanation.

I see them more as stories, not lies.

They are stories of the miraculous. You prefer to believe stories that are lies . More human conjecture (priest or no) in explanation of the miraculous… but lies none the less.

You said I can't expect anyone to listen to me if I don't have anything original to say. Since we are conversing, I'll assume what I have to say, is original.

You said you believed in God but did not think of yourself as Christian and I thought that made you different (original). Now I'm the one who was wrong and find it out after 3 or 4 posts with you. I rarely speak with those who challenge belief because it is such a waste of time… as is this thread, so feel good, I'll be out of your hair shortly.

It doesn't matter to me if I know whether I will believe something or not, why would it? When did I ever say I wanted to know what God knows?

Anyone who posts this many times on a board for Christian thinking must be looking for something. I hope you find it to your satisfaction on your own . I think this conversation has reached an uneventful, flat climax that no longer requires my participation. We'll just go round and round and I hate that. God's peace stuartcr.

People have been captured, falsely accused and tried, tortured and crucified for everyone elses' mistakes, since the beginning of time.

OK, only unbelief requires proof. That's where I come in.

I do not say that I require some physical proof as to the veracity of God's existence. I did not say that I question God's ability to perform the miraculous, I said I do not believe He did perform miracles.

How do you know that's never happened before?

OK

I post on this forum, because it's interesting to me, to hear what people have to say in response to my questions. I think of questions, and I ask them. Round and round, is how these conversations have been going since the beginning of time. It's what people do.

If I wanted to know about God, I certainly wouldn't ask anyone. What God wants me to know about Him, I know.

Storyteller wrote:If a miracle could be explained then it wouldn't be a miracle would it?

Your quite right.

So why don't you believe in miracles?

I must confess I had a really hard time believing some of them yet I never doubted the ressurection.
The more I ponder on them though the more I think why not? I mean lets face it, life itself is a miracle isnt it?

stuartcr wrote:

Nicki wrote:

stuartcr wrote:
When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle. I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket. Do you truly believe that Jonah was in the belly of a sea creature for 3 days?

I find that pretty shocking and sad. Why be a priest if you just want to find ways to explain miracles so there's nothing really special about them anymore, and God's power is denied? The Bible says something about people - it might have been about church leaders - 'having a form of Godliness but denying its power.'

You would have to ask him. Maybe he wanted to explain a miracle in believable terms? Do you truly, without any doubts, believe the story of Jonah?

I don't find it immediately easy to believe because it's not something that usually happens, but I believe God could make it happen and that he said he did, so I trust him.

Storyteller wrote:So why don't you believe in miracles?

I must confess I had a really hard time believing some of them yet I never doubted the ressurection.
The more I ponder on them though the more I think why not? I mean lets face it, life itself is a miracle isnt it?

Yes - that made me think of the lovely song at the end of the Charlotte's Web movie that came out a few years ago talking about things in nature being ordinary miracles. 'Just another ordinary miracle today.'

Storyteller wrote:So why don't you believe in miracles?

I must confess I had a really hard time believing some of them yet I never doubted the ressurection.
The more I ponder on them though the more I think why not? I mean lets face it, life itself is a miracle isnt it?

How does one go about believing in something today, that was unbelievable yesterday? I think it takes God's intervention. When/if He wants me to believe something, I'm sure I will.

Do you truly believe that Jonah spent 3 days in the stomach of a sea creature?

Nicki wrote:

stuartcr wrote:

Nicki wrote:

stuartcr wrote:
When a lesson or moral guidance is required, it's very convenient to apply a miracle to help make a point. Some miracles are believable, for instance water into wine...but that is chemistry, not a miracle. I had a priest explain the loaves and fishes in his sermon that made sense. He stated that what he believed really happened was this; in those days, people carried all their belongings pretty much on their person, as is the norm for nomadic people. The miracle was that everyone contributed the food they were carrying so that it could be spread amongst the crowd. The miracle was people sacrificing, not fish and bread appearing from a basket. Do you truly believe that Jonah was in the belly of a sea creature for 3 days?

I find that pretty shocking and sad. Why be a priest if you just want to find ways to explain miracles so there's nothing really special about them anymore, and God's power is denied? The Bible says something about people - it might have been about church leaders - 'having a form of Godliness but denying its power.'

You would have to ask him. Maybe he wanted to explain a miracle in believable terms? Do you truly, without any doubts, believe the story of Jonah?

I don't find it immediately easy to believe because it's not something that usually happens, but I believe God could make it happen and that he said he did, so I trust him.

I believe He could also, but I do not know that He said that.

Jonah 1:17 Is the Lord appointing a creature to do that as good as Him "saying" he's going to do that ? I realize it's splitting hairs but ...

stuartcr wrote:

Storyteller wrote:So why don't you believe in miracles?

I must confess I had a really hard time believing some of them yet I never doubted the ressurection.
The more I ponder on them though the more I think why not? I mean lets face it, life itself is a miracle isnt it?

How does one go about believing in something today, that was unbelievable yesterday? I think it takes God's intervention. When/if He wants me to believe something, I'm sure I will.

Do you truly believe that Jonah spent 3 days in the stomach of a sea creature?

Honestly? I don't know.

I haven't read the passage since I was a kid so I would need to read it again but having said that, I believe in the ressurection so anything is possible.