Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:13 pm**

dfnj wrote:
RickD wrote:You don't offend me just because you believe differently. But, what does offend me, is that you misrepresent my beliefs.
First, I haven't replaced God with Jesus. Jesus is God.
Second, the bible says there is no other way to God, except through Christ. Your choice. Believe it, or don't.
Third, salvation has always been through faith. And if Jesus is God, there is no "before Jesus". He is the Alpha and the Omega. He was there in the beginning, before the foundations of the earth. He is the eternal God.
Fourth, I don't "achieve salvation through a certain way of practicing religion". Salvation comes by grace, through faith in Christ. One must literally stop trying to achieve salvation by good works, or by following Religion, and just trust.
Fifth, the bible doesn't tell us, nor do I advocate for saying words a certain way to achieve salvation. There is no way to "achieve" salvation. It's a free gift of God.
And finally, "loving Jesus", is the same as loving God. Jesus is God. Jesus is not some other word. Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we must be saved.
Thank you for not being offended. Hopefully, not this time either!

Jesus is the not the same word as God. When I think of Jesus Christ I instantly think of the sermon on the mount, the Beatitudes, and love thy enemy. The word God represents something. The word Jesus represents something different than God. You make it sound like God can be removed from the Bible. You can't just replace one word with another and have it mean exactly the same thing.

Do you ever worship God directly or do you only worship God through Jesus Christ? I would hope you would be capable of worshiping God directly. God is God. There is only one true God. I think you may have lost site of the one true God with your fixation on idolizing the words "Jesus Christ". I don't believe Jesus was preaching, "Me, me, me." I think we are supposed to emulate the way Jesus lived his life and not treat Jesus Christ like our favorite NFL football team. I totally get the Jesus Christ fandom but being a fan is not the same thing as playing the game.

Your path to salvation seems excessively complicated to me. My faith is in an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. In my faith, my God uses his omnipotent powers of love and forgiveness to allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced our religion. Everyone is saved! Everyone experiences eternal heavenly bliss through the grace of God's omnipotence. Which is really good news for most us! Especially the people living in New Jersey!

I just can't accept the idea that our God is not powerful enough to forgive even the worst sinners among us. Or that our God is not powerful enough to accept people who do not worship him in exactly the right way. It seems to me labeling and categorizing people would be the absolute antithesis to an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. It actually seems extremely irreverent to me to think God would be otherwise. God is all-loving.

Again, I mean no disrespect of suggestion that you are thinking a certain way. It's more about contrasting my way of thinking to yours so I may not have your way of thinking accurately represented. These posts take a long time. I have to read each sentence 30 times or more.

Have you seen this thread?
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... Agape+love

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:16 pm**

dfnj wrote:
RickD wrote:You don't offend me just because you believe differently. But, what does offend me, is that you misrepresent my beliefs.
First, I haven't replaced God with Jesus. Jesus is God.
Second, the bible says there is no other way to God, except through Christ. Your choice. Believe it, or don't.
Third, salvation has always been through faith. And if Jesus is God, there is no "before Jesus". He is the Alpha and the Omega. He was there in the beginning, before the foundations of the earth. He is the eternal God.
Fourth, I don't "achieve salvation through a certain way of practicing religion". Salvation comes by grace, through faith in Christ. One must literally stop trying to achieve salvation by good works, or by following Religion, and just trust.
Fifth, the bible doesn't tell us, nor do I advocate for saying words a certain way to achieve salvation. There is no way to "achieve" salvation. It's a free gift of God.
And finally, "loving Jesus", is the same as loving God. Jesus is God. Jesus is not some other word. Jesus is the only name under heaven by which we must be saved.
Thank you for not being offended. Hopefully, not this time either!

Jesus is the not the same word as God. When I think of Jesus Christ I instantly think of the sermon on the mount, the Beatitudes, and love thy enemy. The word God represents something. The word Jesus represents something different than God. You make it sound like God can be removed from the Bible. You can't just replace one word with another and have it mean exactly the same thing.

Do you ever worship God directly or do you only worship God through Jesus Christ? I would hope you would be capable of worshiping God directly. God is God. There is only one true God. I think you may have lost site of the one true God with your fixation on idolizing the words "Jesus Christ". I don't believe Jesus was preaching, "Me, me, me." I think we are supposed to emulate the way Jesus lived his life and not treat Jesus Christ like our favorite NFL football team. I totally get the Jesus Christ fandom but being a fan is not the same thing as playing the game.

Your path to salvation seems excessively complicated to me. My faith is in an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. In my faith, my God uses his omnipotent powers of love and forgiveness to allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced our religion. Everyone is saved! Everyone experiences eternal heavenly bliss through the grace of God's omnipotence. Which is really good news for most us! Especially the people living in New Jersey!

I just can't accept the idea that our God is not powerful enough to forgive even the worst sinners among us. Or that our God is not powerful enough to accept people who do not worship him in exactly the right way. It seems to me labeling and categorizing people would be the absolute antithesis to an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. It actually seems extremely irreverent to me to think God would be otherwise. God is all-loving.

Again, I mean no disrespect of suggestion that you are thinking a certain way. It's more about contrasting my way of thinking to yours so I may not have your way of thinking accurately represented. These posts take a long time. I have to read each sentence 30 times or more.

You are free to believe anything you choose to however it seems like to me that you're deciding to do things your way instead of God's way and we should not do things our way. You are waisting time doing and thinking your way instead of God's way. It might sound old fashioned but we must do things God's way to be saved and we go by God's word to know God's way. We are not under the law anymore and the law never justified any man anyway because no man could ever live by the OT laws and you can't either,the law condemns man,however Jesus fulfilled the law for us.

You must understand that God will not just forgive your sin based on what you do.God will forgive your sin when you recieve Jesus as your Savior and Lord,Jesus's blood will wash every one of your sins away and then you can get to God but you cannot go around Jesus and think God will overlook your sin. It is God's will that you accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord and you cannot please God by rejecting Jesus and thinking you can still somehow get to God. We are under grace not the law.

The law will justify no flesh in God's sight,only your faith in Jesus will justify you in God's sight. Jesus is God's way to be saved so you cannot reject it and be saved. Do things God's way,instead of your way or the OT way.

Posted: **Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:45 pm**

dfnj wrote:
Jesus is the not the same word as God. When I think of Jesus Christ I instantly think of the sermon on the mount, the Beatitudes, and love thy enemy. The word God represents something. The word Jesus represents something different than God. You make it sound like God can be removed from the Bible. You can't just replace one word with another and have it mean exactly the same thing.

Who's talking about words?
You are talking about Jesus the man. You are focusing on his human nature. Firstly, he is God. He's God who took on a human nature, in the person of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
You do realize that when I talk about Jesus, I'm talking about God?

Do you ever worship God directly or do you only worship God through Jesus Christ? I would hope you would be capable of worshiping God directly. God is God. There is only one true God. I think you may have lost site of the one true God with your fixation on idolizing the words "Jesus Christ". I don't believe Jesus was preaching, "Me, me, me." I think we are supposed to emulate the way Jesus lived his life and not treat Jesus Christ like our favorite NFL football team. I totally get the Jesus Christ fandom but being a fan is not the same thing as playing the game.

You are still not getting it!

JESUS CHRIST IS GOD! I'm not idolizing any words. You'd do well to try to understand the Trinity.

I think you may be making the same mistake that Jehovah's witnesses make. Equating God the Father, as God, while not recognizing The Son is God too.

Your path to salvation seems excessively complicated to me. My faith is in an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. In my faith, my God uses his omnipotent powers of love and forgiveness to allow everyone through the gates of heaven to experience eternal heavenly bliss regardless of our earthly sins or how we practiced our religion. Everyone is saved! Everyone experiences eternal heavenly bliss through the grace of God's omnipotence. Which is really good news for most us! Especially the people living in New Jersey!

Salvation is actually a very simple concept. Salvation comes by trusting in Christ, and his work on the cross. Christ's sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world. Do you understand that? It means his sacrifice was efficacious for every sin, past and future!!!
But, not everyone accepts God's way. You must believe/trust in what Christ did. It's really as simple as that. It's not complicated at all.

You are advocating for universalism. It's simply unbiblical.

I just can't accept the idea that our God is not powerful enough to forgive even the worst sinners among us. Or that our God is not powerful enough to accept people who do not worship him in exactly the right way. It seems to me labeling and categorizing people would be the absolute antithesis to an all-powerful all-loving totally forgiving God. It actually seems extremely irreverent to me to think God would be otherwise. God is all-loving.

You are misrepresenting what the bible teaches, and what I believe. First, you are conflating salvation and worship. Once one trusts Christ for salvation, as John 3:16 and other verses say, then one is accepted by God. The way we worship has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. That would be a works based salvation. Salvation is by God's unmerited grace, through faith in Christ. It's not by works. Salvation is not conditional upon how we worship God. We worship God because we are saved. We don't worship to become saved.
See the difference?

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:30 am**

Christianity teaches the following: there is only one God in all existence, God is a Trinity, Jesus Christ is God in flesh, salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, Jesus died on the cross, and Jesus rose from the dead in a glorified, physical body. The religion that contradicts any of these teachings is not Christian.
https://carm.org/dictionary-christian

This means, Jersey, you are not a Christian. Christianity concludes Christ is God, a fact you simply refuse to accept. Your version is better known as Universal ism... it's not Christianity without Christ as God.

Christian Universalism is a school of Christian theology which includes the belief in the doctrine of universal reconciliation, the view that all human beings will ultimately be restored to a right relationship with God in Heaven and the New Jerusalem.
https://carm.org/universalism-is

don't you think ?

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:38 am**

Rick:
Fourth, I don't "achieve salvation through a certain way of practicing religion". Salvation comes by grace, through faith in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9 One must literally stop trying to achieve salvation by good works, or by following Religion, and just trust. (ES added Eph. quote)

Unless the good works are proof of the faith in Christ, doing what He asks, feed the poor, visit the incarcerated, cloth the naked... in other words take care of your fellow man, not a sign of good works but a fruit of good works promoted by faith and a desire to please God and do the right thing, help your fellow man, as God so desires ... James 2:18

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:06 am**

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
Rick:
Fourth, I don't "achieve salvation through a certain way of practicing religion". Salvation comes by grace, through faith in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9 One must literally stop trying to achieve salvation by good works, or by following Religion, and just trust. (ES added Eph. quote)
Unless the good works are proof of the faith in Christ, doing what He asks, feed the poor, visit the incarcerated, cloth the naked... in other words take care of your fellow man, not a sign of good works but a fruit of good works promoted by faith and a desire to please God and do the right thing, help your fellow man, as God so desires ... James 2:18

ES,

I'd say those things you listed are signs of a disciple. What a disciple should do. Not to gain or keep salvation, but to be a follower of Christ.

But why quibble over minor differences, right? You Catholics almost understand.

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:43 am**

But why quibble over minor differences, right? You Catholics almost understand.

agreed, but when i look in the rear view mirror and see that forlorn look on your face ...

... it makes me want to help ...

I'd say those things you listed are signs of a disciple. What a disciple should do. Not to gain or keep salvation, but to be a follower of Christ.

and now tell me who is called to be a disciple of Christ if not Christians ... soooo ... everyone who says they believe in Christ as their God should emulate His teachings and the very things He did,. Be His disciple in spirit and ways of the world to show the world it can happen, how it is done, how we honor our Lord... by our sincerest Imitation of Christ.

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:06 am**

RickD wrote wrote:
But why quibble over minor differences, right? You Catholics almost understand.

ES wrote:
agreed, but when i look in the rear view mirror and see that forlorn look on your face ... ... it makes me want to help ...

That look you see on my face when you look in the rear view mirror is not a forlorn look. It's a look of frustration when an 85 year old guy is driving 10mph under the speed limit, in the passing lane.

RickD wrote:
I'd say those things you listed are signs of a disciple. What a disciple should do. Not to gain or keep salvation, but to be a follower of Christ.

ES wrote:
and now tell me who is called to be a disciple of Christ if not Christians ... soooo ... everyone who says they believe in Christ as their God should emulate His teachings and the very things He did,. Be His disciple in spirit and ways of the world to show the world it can happen, how it is done, how we honor our Lord... by our sincerest Imitation of Christ.

I agree wholeheartedly! All who believe in Christ, should emulate his teachings. But not all do, for whatever reason. And I think there's where the difference lies.

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:22 am**

I agree wholeheartedly! All who believe in Christ, should emulate his teachings. But not all do, for whatever reason. And I think there's where the difference lies.

What difference were we speaking of ? If you are a follower of Christ, the works you do in helping all others is expected. If you have faith and no works, other than your word, what proof of your faith do you have ? My "works" are the emulation of Christ's work ... the continuation of ... where can i go wrong keeping Him in mind ? Keeping Him first ? Portraying truly the Imitation of Christ.

James 2:18

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:31 am**

EssentialSacrifice wrote:
I agree wholeheartedly! All who believe in Christ, should emulate his teachings. But not all do, for whatever reason. And I think there's where the difference lies.
What difference were we speaking of ? If you are a follower of Christ, the works you do in helping all others is expected. If you have faith and no works, other than your word, what proof of your faith do you have ? My "works" are the emulation of Christ's work ... the continuation of ... where can i go wrong keeping Him in mind ? Keeping Him first ? Portraying truly the Imitation of Christ.

James 2:18

The difference is that the works are expected, but not guaranteed. Good works come as a believer grows in Christ.

If a believer lives by the flesh, and not by the spirit, good works may not be evident.

And that doesn't mean one isn't saved. It just means one may not be maturing as a believer, as God desires us to do. But unlike the moment of salvation, where it's a work of God in the "heart" of a person, growing as a believer is a cooperation between the believer, and the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

I think that's where the difference lies in what you and I believe.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:53 am**

the difference is that the works are expected, but not guaranteed. Good works come as a believer grows in Christ.

The expectation of Christ on us imitating Him has no bearing on guarantees. You either do them or you don't. The reason behind said actions are irrelevant. Yes, certainly you do more good things as/for Christ as you progress in your faith and belief but in no way does that provide any guarantees towards salvation.

it's a work of God in the "heart" of a person, growing as a believer is a cooperation between the believer, and the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

winner winner chicken dinner ... but this still has nothing to do with the works we provide our fellow man in the name of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not dependent on works but works are the traceable cause for proof of the faith we have and the faith we portray out in the real world as He desires. Deuteronomy 15:11 ... Matthew 25:35-40 ... James 2:14-17

I think that's where the difference lies in what you and I believe.

It's all but semantics at this point.

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:33 pm**

ES wrote:

The expectation of Christ on us imitating Him has no bearing on guarantees. You either do them or you don't. The reason behind said actions are irrelevant. Yes, certainly you do more good things as/for Christ as you progress in your faith and belief but in no way does that provide any guarantees towards salvation.

And if we flesh this out, I think we'll see the difference. I believe we are guaranteed salvation at the moment of trusting/believing in Christ John 3:16. Regardless of how we mature as a believer.

winner winner chicken dinner ... but this still has nothing to do with the works we provide our fellow man in the name of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not dependent on works but works are the traceable cause for proof of the faith we have and the faith we portray out in the real world as He desires. Deuteronomy 15:11 ... Matthew 25:35-40 ... James 2:14-17

I think there's still a disagreement here. But I'm not sure what you mean by "works are the traceable cause for proof". Can you elaborate on that for me?

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:36 pm**

abelcainsbrother wrote: You are free to believe anything you choose to however it seems like to me that you're deciding to do things your way instead of God's way and we should not do things our way. You are waisting time doing and thinking your way instead of God's way. It might sound old fashioned but we must do things God's way to be saved and we go by God's word to know God's way.

I will not pretend to speak for God. It is probably the height of human hubris and possibly man's greatest possible sin to pretend to speak for God. Your interpretation of Gods words in the Bible is different than mine. You seem to know exactly what God thinking. God's way is in the Bible. At least we can agree on that.

abelcainsbrother wrote: We are not under the law anymore and the law never justified any man anyway because no man could ever live by the OT laws and you can't either,the law condemns man,however Jesus fulfilled the law for us.

Are you suggesting adultery be a felony under secular law?

abelcainsbrother wrote: You must understand that God will not just forgive your sin based on what you do.God will forgive your sin when you recieve Jesus as your Savior and Lord,Jesus's blood will wash every one of your sins away and then you can get to God but you cannot go around Jesus and think God will overlook your sin. It is God's will that you accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord and you cannot please God by rejecting Jesus and thinking you can still somehow get to God. We are under grace not the law.

You have no idea what will please God. Are you God?

You are not my judge. God is my judge. I will put my faith in God's judgement as I have stated. God is my Lord. God is my Savior. God is all I need.

abelcainsbrother wrote: The law will justify no flesh in God's sight,only your faith in Jesus will justify you in God's sight. Jesus is God's way to be saved so you cannot reject it and be saved. Do things God's way,instead of your way or the OT way.

My faith in God is stronger than yours. I do not believe there is one exact way to worship God in order to be saved. My faith in God is everyone will be saved regardless of our earthly sins or how we have practiced our religion. God will be my savior. God will not fail me. I am putting all my faith in God. You are just too afraid to put all your faith in God's love. I am willing to put all my faith in God's love entirely. There's nothing more I have to do. That's good news!

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:31 pm**

dfnj wrote:
abelcainsbrother wrote: You are free to believe anything you choose to however it seems like to me that you're deciding to do things your way instead of God's way and we should not do things our way. You are waisting time doing and thinking your way instead of God's way. It might sound old fashioned but we must do things God's way to be saved and we go by God's word to know God's way.
I will not pretend to speak for God. It is probably the height of human hubris and possibly man's greatest possible sin to pretend to speak for God. Your interpretation of Gods words in the Bible is different than mine. You seem to know exactly what God thinking. God's way is in the Bible. At least we can agree on that.

abelcainsbrother wrote: We are not under the law anymore and the law never justified any man anyway because no man could ever live by the OT laws and you can't either,the law condemns man,however Jesus fulfilled the law for us.
Are you suggesting adultery be a felony under secular law?

abelcainsbrother wrote: You must understand that God will not just forgive your sin based on what you do.God will forgive your sin when you recieve Jesus as your Savior and Lord,Jesus's blood will wash every one of your sins away and then you can get to God but you cannot go around Jesus and think God will overlook your sin. It is God's will that you accept Jesus as your Savior and Lord and you cannot please God by rejecting Jesus and thinking you can still somehow get to God. We are under grace not the law.
You have no idea what will please God. Are you God?

You are not my judge. God is my judge. I will put my faith in God's judgement as I have stated. God is my Lord. God is my Savior. God is all I need.

abelcainsbrother wrote: The law will justify no flesh in God's sight,only your faith in Jesus will justify you in God's sight. Jesus is God's way to be saved so you cannot reject it and be saved. Do things God's way,instead of your way or the OT way.
My faith in God is stronger than yours. I do not believe there is one exact way to worship God in order to be saved. My faith in God is everyone will be saved regardless of our earthly sins or how we have practiced our religion. God will be my savior. God will not fail me. I am putting all my faith in God. You are just too afraid to put all your faith in God's love. I am willing to put all my faith in God's love entirely. There's nothing more I have to do. That's good news!

I did not judge you at all. We know how to be saved to get to God by reading God's word,the more we read it the more we know God's will and based on your views you are not doing it God's way. You are not saved if you go around Jesus,you cannot get to God by refusing to be saved by Jesus because there is no good work you can do to remove your sin. Yet you think you can get to God based on works,you think you can go to God without a blood sacrifice just like Cain did and God rejected it, even if you did have a blood sacrifice you have NO JEWISH TEMPLE TO SACRIFICE IT TO GOD and yet you are wrong biblically.You are not following the OT laws without a blood sacrifice.You are sinning living under the OT laws.Obeying some while breaking others and yet you think it is OK in God's eyes.

I'm just telling you that you will not go to heaven if you reject Jesus for your salvation no matter how many good works you think you are doing. You are not a sinnless person like Jesus Christ was and only he can remove your sin but your sins will not be removed or overlooked by God based on your works. You are caught up in a false religion. ALL false religions teach works for salvation. Your religion is no diffeent than Islam,Hinduism,Jehovah witnesses,Moromonism,etc these are all false religions and they all have the same thing in common they teach works for salvation. It will not work and you and they are just as lost as an anti-God militant atheist. You cannot reject Jesus Christ and go to heaven period. You must be saved by Jesus,there is no other way to be saved. And if you love God like you claim you would do things God's way,but you're not based on what you say and believe. I'm telling you what God's word says. You cannot do things your way and please God. God will never overlook your sin or remove your sin based on what good works you do. You are not following God's word.

Posted: **Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:37 pm**

I believe we are guaranteed salvation at the moment of trusting/believing in Christ John 3:16. Regardless of how we mature as a believer.

I don't think this has anything to do with the topic at hand.... here's why ... "works" in my world are the direct consequence of belief in Jesus as God. His entire ministry was for the benefit of man and our ministry is to follow that lead and that means we do all possible to help others, as He did /does for us and love the Lord above all else.

for me, it's works = a result of obeying God and not works = resulting in salvation. If you're a child of God the desire to do good things for others is paramount, bursting at the seams to be of service... that's works... an overwhelming desire to do God's will in a tangible way, [no where near as tangible a way He did for us...] but a doing, actually doing the best thing the right way for each and every one of our fellow novitiates. Whatever that "doing" actual action is called in obeying His words = works generated by the love of God for man through and by man.

Evidence for God from Science

How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?

Re: How did God become man?