Christians: Would you be pro-gay if you weren't a christian?

[Kurieuo]

You know I said I wouldn't be pro "gay".
But, if I wasn't Christian, then I wouldn't give a damn either.
And really that's how I see society is. Many just don't give a damn as long as it's outside of their life.
They don't really care about the "gay" person. Don't give a damn about people emasculating themselves physically because they feel they're the opposite sex. Don't care about the craziness and even high suicides that go with such.

There is such a thing as superficial love, and that is what I see many parents and much of society giving today.
It is a very short sighted and unenduring love. I also don't wash my hands entirely of any guilt giving it because sometimes it's just an easier road of "love" even if not very loving. And, when people see you as the unloving one if you don't give into their demands you know aren't good for them, then well the "blackmail" pressure can be strong.

It could be something as simple as giving your kids with Maccas. They might act hurt and like you don't love them. So rather then pushing them to more nutritious and healthy foods, if you were to continually give in. Well, they might grow up on such and then become overweight and depressed when old because of what you set in motion parenting. That's just an extreme example and I'll continue with it for further illustration.

How horrible are the parents that never gives their kids sweets and Maccas, right? Poor kids. Don't get to be kids. And yet, all those healthy nutritious meals those kids instead receive and come to understand. Such parents are avoiding all sorts of health issues for their kids when they grow, their parents are avoiding the easy "love" and action. Perhaps more to be congratulated, although I think one here and there is fine -- but sometimes I know I often give the easy love too. My kids just look so sad right? Yes, I'm a soft touch. But then, I feel bad knowing that's not really loving them. Making them happy. Like what society believes love is, about making someone happy in the moment.

SO, if I were non-Christian, then I wouldn't give a rats bum about what people do.
I'll give them the superficial love they want in order to have them and society like me even if I know better.
It's probably only Christ living in me that actually makes me care more for others doing these wrong things.
Especially knowing the natural consequences that often follow such. Regardless of what a person/people thinks will make them happy, if I know better, then I can't accept such. And really, a lot of today's social morality is based upon a humanistic feel good love, rather than a truly caring long-suffering kind found in Christ.

[RickD]

If I weren't a Christian, I'd probably be really upset that you called McDonalds, Maccas.


Yo mate, put another shrimp on the barbie. Nah, iz goin to Maccas homiez.

[melanie]

Paul I was being facetious and a perhaps a little silly.
But you have brought up some interesting ideas.
That's just bloody cruel.
You are born genetically that way, but u don't dare act on it.
Resist those impulses even though gentically you are have been given the shiitest hand because through no fault of your own this is your preferred attraction but it's an abomination.

It is no greater sin or burden than being born any other way that is not ideal for us.
Being born with violent tendencies and NOT acting on them.
Being born with sexual attraction to children and not acting on them.
Being born with the desire to steal and not acting upon them.
I can go on the you get the point.
WE have made it seem to be a far greater burden than it truly is.
Being sexually attracted to something that is NOT good for us and not acting on those impulses is just like wanting to do anything else that you know to be wrong (ie: not good for you) for you and not doing it.

Being born gay is like being born with any other issue that is not ideal, not good for you.
Be it the desire to steal, hurt others, hurt self, lie, etc, etc.

We have made it seem like a far greater burden than it is?
Out of the mouths of heterosexuals......

Have you looked at the suicide rate of homosexuals?
Felt the anguish and pain of those who struggle with their faith and their desires. Heard them cry at night and ask God why they were born that way?
Felt their isolation and abandonment when they are shunned by the church and family. Kicked out of home.
I read a harrowing account of Christian parents who did exactly that. Pushed their son out of the family home, told him that his desires were of evil and would be of great consequence. Heard him crying at night, so confused and troubled. He hated himself. Their church backed them on their hard stance.
That boy killed himself.

When I was in the latter years of high school a guy started at our school. He was immediately picked on. He was very flamboyant and quite obviously gay. We became friends and I realsied very quickly that he was pretty awesome. He was smart, funny and caring.
I really went out of my way to let others know how great he was. I told them to give him a chance, especially my guy mates. I invited him along to social events and before too long he was a popular, well liked guy. Him being gay had nothing to do with it, he really was just a really cool guy.
A few years later I saw him and we caught up with where we were at in life. As I was leaving he took my hand and said 'thankyou for being so kind to me at school', I was like sure no worries. He then told me, 'no, you don't understand. You made a huge difference in my life. He went on to explain that he had already been to two previous high schools and was bullied and picked on routinely. He fell into a depression and attempted suicide. His parents moved him from Melbourne to the country town I lived in for a fresh start. He told me when the taunts started at the new school, my high school he knew he couldn't take it again. He started contemplating suicide again, but this time would make sure he did it right.
Then we became mates and he said everything changed. He became well liked and was even one of 'the boys'. He knew that I was talking to the other kids about him because they told him 'Mel was right about you' and things of the like.
He had tears in eyes as he hugged me, thanked me and told me it was the first time in his life he felt accepted and liked.

That had nothing to do with being accepted and liked for being gay, but for just being him.
I was about 20 when that happened and it was and remains a defining moment in my life.
I realised just how much our thoughts and deeds impact others. That kindness penetrates far and wide. That we can make a difference in someone's life. Even when we may not realise just how much.

So, yes there are many sins such as you stated that people live with which you brought up like violence and stealing and pedophilia. But the list doesn't stop there. We all struggle with sin everyday. Jealousy, envy, pride, anger, vanity, ect ect ect.

I am not pro gay. I didn't sport the rainbow profile on FB that every other person was. If it gets put to referendum in regards to gay marraige I will vote 'no'.
I'm not endorsing or condoning the lifestyle.
But I love the heck out of them.
I'm going to treat them with nothing other than dignity, worth, love and acceptance. Not acceptance because they're gay, but because their human.
Am I going to in this perceived righteous love tell them how sinful they really are. Because they are headed for a cliff and someone has to stop them from tumbling off right?
Because if I don't tell them that the wages of sin is death, then I'm not really loving them.

So what about my friends who are vain, do I remind them how sinful they are. My obese sister has a unhealthy love of food, should I remind her that her gluttony is an abomination that she better get a handle on otherwise hell's heating up for her. People will say, oh but you have to remind her that it's unhealthy. Remind her she's really fat, right, that's helpful.
I just love them, wholeheartedly and unconditionally.
They know I'm a Christian, I don't beat them over the head with it, on occassion its discussed.
I'm trying to shine the light of Christ as brightly as I can so that it may lead them hopefully one day to Jesus. That way is through love.
Then Jesus can work in them. I can't badger the gay out of them but Jesus can love us a little more perfect everyday.

[melanie]

You know I said I wouldn't be pro "gay".
But, if I wasn't Christian, then I wouldn't give a damn either.
And really that's how I see society is. Many just don't give a damn as long as it's outside of their life.
They don't really care about the "gay" person. Don't give a damn about people emasculating themselves physically because they feel the opposite set. Don't care about the craziness and even high suicides that go with such.

There is such a thing as superficial love, and that is what I see many parents and much of society giving today.
It is a very short sighted and unenduring love. I also don't wash my hands entirely of any guilt giving because sometimes it's just an easier road of "love" even if not very loving. And, when people see you as the unloving one if you don't give into their demands you know aren't good for them, then well the "blackmail" pressure can be strong.

It could be something as simple as giving your kids with Maccas. They might act hurt and like you don't love them. So rather then pushing them to more nutritious and healthy foods, if you were to continually give in. Well, they might grow up on such and then become overweight and depressed when old because of what you set in motion parenting. That's just an extreme example and I'll continue with it as an example.

How horrible are the parents that never gives their kids sweets and Maccas right? Poor kids. Don't get to be kids. And yet, all those healthy nutritious meals those kids receive and come to understand. They'll be avoiding all sorts of diseases for their kids, their parents are avoiding the easy "love" and action. To be congratulated, although I think one here and there is fine -- but sometimes I know I often give the easy love too. My kids just look so sad right? Yes, I'm a soft touch. But then, I feel bad knowing that's not really loving them. Making them happy. Like what society believes love is, about making someone happy in the moment.

SO, if I were non-Christian, then I wouldn't give a rats bum about what people do.
So it's probably being Christ living in me that actually makes me care more for others doing the wrong things.
Especially knowing the natural consequences that often follow such. Regardless of what a person/people thinks will make them happy, if I know better, then I can't accept such. And really, a lot of today's social morality is based upon a humanistic feel good love, rather than a truly caring long-suffering kind found in Christ.

I think it's a misconception that non Christians don't care about this issues. I very personally know quite a few non believers who are very vocal about thoughts against homosexuality.

The thing is K that you make the choices for now what your children will eat.
For others they make their choices. As your children will when they get older. All we can do is teach them health and nutrition. Wise choices. We do this through passing on our wisdom. We don't achieve it by mocking those that are fat. By campaigning outside of Maccas against the Big Mac. We don't chastise other parents or people for their choices. We teach our children and hope that when they go out on their own the lessons we taught them remain. But they will make their own choices.
That is free will and it's a beautiful gift....
People have the right by way of free will to make bad decisions.

Christians have put the cart before the horse.
Jesus convicts us of sin, in our spirit because he dwells therein.
Jesus does a much better job than we ever could at turning our freewill choices towards Him.
Homosexuals need Jesus just as much as the rest of us.
Pitting the church against the gay community is not the answer.
We should be welcoming them. Not so we can change them but so Jesus can.
They have to get to know Him first.
But we have placed such a chasm by our relentless, reminding of how broken and sinful they are.
Hey come over here you abominations and learn just how dysfunctional you are just doesn't work.
Hey come over here and learn just how cherished and love you are just might.

[Kurieuo]

I think you have a particular conception of "Christians" in mind Melanie.
And I don't think it is fair or balanced, but perhaps built upon your feeling and experiences in church congregations.
Further, I know it is one often perpetrated by our society and media, the gay community and that like that Christians are cold-hearted bigots.

By and far my own experience with Christians is that they're very gracious towards sinners especially since we all are such.
Yet, people don't like being confronted with such, "How dare you judge me?" And it's the reason why the Gospel is so offensive. Because it starts with us all basically acknowledging we're [poop] as far as our actions go. Heck, Scripture even says our good works are like filthy rags (bloody period stained rags) to God. (Isaiah 64:6)

Edit: At the same time it has to be acknowledge, you have the underhanded type of Christians. The ones with which you and I are both familiar with I'm certain. Who put on the smile and you speak to and might say something they disagree with but they nod all happy. And then go away and the viper within comes out, judgment, gossiping and the like. Forget any Christian element, these are very unsafe people to have as friends. They're the kind who might say, yes love the sinner, we all sin -- and then while walking away their smiles turns into disgust and their judging thoughts surface and away they go gossiping and the like.

[crochet1949]

Yes, because we Need to realize just how God Does see sin. We tend to take 'sin' somewhat lightly. Satan makes sin look like fun, so we don't take consequences seriously. Preachers tend to Not preach about hell and it's reality because people go to church to feel better about themselves, Not to feel worse. But they Also neglect to share how a person Can feel better. Salvation.

People who just want to be appreciated by another person and it happens to be someone of their same sex who is showing that appreciation. Well -- it could be hard to resist. I can understand that. But it's those who are Loud about it that turns me off. "I want my rights to publically love whomever I want to' -- sounds very selfish.

It's also offensive to Me -- irritating to me to have someone refer to me / other believers as bigots simply because they don't care for our moral standards --they are Biblical standards. They are God given. Part of society would like God to disappear. He Will one day and then Those people will forever regret His being 'gone' -- in heaven while they are in hell with satan rather than having God's light with them. We still have God's light in this world. As dim as it may seem.

Melanie has a good point. We Do have free will to make bad decisions. So we should be looking for Godly wisdom to make wise choices.

[melanie]

Those parents that I spoke of who lost their son, now spend their time helping and ministering to troubled youths. They have started a hostel for teens and young adults who have been kicked out of home or pushed out by their parents for being gay. They have dedicated their lives to trying to stop other children taking their own lives like their son did. There are no shortage of these children.

I have family members and friends who are gay
We have spoken about their experiences and the experiences of others that they know.

The best way to ascertain how the gay community are being treated by not all Christians but far too many is to ask them.
Just because they are gay doesn't mean either that they are malicious liars against the church.
I have read also many accounts of how Christians have been treated within their community for being gay.

I find social media a very effective way of getting insight into people's thoughts and positions. I am a stalker, sounds strange but I like to know what people are thinking on certain subjects so I read Christian FB groups and comments. Comments on articles, YouTube videos ect. Straight out of the mouth of people so to speak. I know it's a cross section and not the whole picture but overall im left pretty disgusted most of the time.

Perhaps K to some extent people have this view of Christians because it's what is put out there.
Perhaps it's not all Christian bashing but some truth lies with such sentiments.

Of course there are wonderful Christians who do not deserve to be painted with this brush.

[Kurieuo]

I made an edit Melanie, to give my post more balance. Do re-read it.

Also, my post answering which church I went to, perhaps kind of relevant to our discussion also.

[melanie]

I know it must seem like I'm very negative towards the 'church'.
And I guess to a certain degree I am.
Not because I enjoy negativity but because I hear what people are saying about the 'church' and from what I've seen there is too much element of truth to it.
It saddens me because people are pushed away from God as a result. I know it is said that this occurs because people don't like their sins pointed out. Maybe there is something wrong with the balance when we are pushing out dislike for certain sins louder and stronger than we are presenting Gods love and forgiveness.

You know over the years people have said some pretty horrible things about me either to my face or behind my back. First response, 'how dare they'. Then on reflection I have to question if there is any element of truth to it. It's not nice or comfortable but necessary. You know sometimes it was nothing but malicious but often there was grain of truth to it or more. Pretending like they are just bashing my character for the sake of it would never lead me to grow as a person.

If people are saying that we as Christians are cold hearted bigots, and society has this view of us then instead of just thinking that's it's malicious bashing maybe we should look at what grains of truth there is.

[melanie]

I made an edit Melanie, to give my post more balance. Do re-read it.

Also, my post answering which church I went to, perhaps kind of relevant to our discussion also.

You know I love ya K man

[Kurieuo]

I made an edit Melanie, to give my post more balance. Do re-read it.

Also, my post answering which church I went to, perhaps kind of relevant to our discussion also.

You know I love ya K man

Yes, I love ya too.
Your heart is very kind and sensitive.
Someone needs to stand in the corner of those who've been hurt.

[neo-x]

Eating pig was once a sin.
Wearing clothes made with two different fabrics was a sin once.
And stoning the prostitute, and burning the witch was the absolute right thing to do.

These aren't the wrong or right things to do anymore.

I was born as a left-handed person. But my culture had a strange aversion to it, for reasons which are superstitious, cultural and pseudo-religious. So it was a serious thing. So as a kid, I was beaten into becoming a right-handed person. I would be slapped, hit with a wooden rod, dragged around by my hair, sometimes it was my elders, and sometimes my teachers who did that. But my natural inclination was to use my left hand and it was always there even when I tried to be right handed, and it all became a mess eventually.

But the thinking was the same, just because you are born left handed, doesn't mean you have to be one. Be a righty and join the normal group of people.

And you know what, the left-hand instinct never left. The beatings, the lectures, the logic, never made any real difference to the left-hand instinct. Except it introduced some right-handedness into me. I am now somewhere in the middle, I can change hands while playing sports, often completely confusing others and myself on a few occasions. If I play cricket, I'll ball with the right and bat from the left and throw from each side. I eat the same way and I used to write with both hands.

Now someone can say, hey being gay and being left-handed isn't the same, and I'll tell you that being a pedophile and a gay isn't the same thing either. Nor is being born with violent tendencies is the same as being born gay any more than being left-handed is.

The thing is, a lot of you are saying the right things and I think you care too but to you it might be just that, the right thing, the moral thing. But to someone who is born that way it's just impossible and painful to deal with.

And I am baffled, being born gay is somehow not the problem, carrying out the gay sexual act is? That to me sounds only politically correct but fundamentally wrong. FWIW, this flies in the face of what Christ taught in the gospel. Even by looking at someone with an immoral desire, you have already sinned. The desire is the problem, not the act. So being gay is the sin, especially if you have it as a born instinct. It is a sin through and through.

How do we justify this? Either God is unjust for making people like that or are we are missing something?
It beats me.

All I know is that this logic doesn't work. All it says is, we know you are wrong-broken, but we don't know what to do about it.

P.S. Mel, I really liked your posts and understand where you are coming from and I agree with you.

[RickD]

Neo,

Having an attraction to someone, isn't necessarily an immoral desire. One can be attracted to someone, without lusting after him/her.

It becomes a sin when lust is involved.

[neo-x]

Neo,

Having an attraction to someone, isn't necessarily an immoral desire. One can be attracted to someone, without lusting after him/her.

It becomes a sin when lust is involved.

I agree with you Rick, but now we are not talking about lust but body behaviour as well. Sexual craving which the body naturally desires and is only fulfilled under love and marriage.

Having an attraction to someone, isn't necessarily an immoral desire.

What if it is someone's wife or husband? is it still immoral?
What if it's your own mom, sister, brother etc?
What kind of attraction are we talking about? Fancy-cool-hip kind of attraction, body attraction.

There are no clear black and white areas between lust and attraction. These things overlap with each other and have other things in between which complicate stuff.

[Kurieuo]

Eating pig was once a sin.
Wearing clothes made with two different fabrics was a sin once.
And stoning the prostitute, and burning the witch was the absolute right thing to do.

These aren't the wrong or right things to do anymore.

Kind of irrelevant Israel's own covenant with God.
I'd recommend picking up a good Leviticus commentary also, to understand the practical or symbolic merit to Israel's Laws also. When I did that I find it all quite interesting. Nonetheless these examples, well, I don't see the relevance.

I was born as a left-handed person. But my culture had a strange aversion to it, for reasons which are superstitious, cultural and pseudo-religious. So it was a serious thing. So as a kid, I was beaten into becoming a right-handed person. I would be slapped, hit with a wooden rod, dragged around by my hair, sometimes it was my elders, and sometimes my teachers who did that. But my natural inclination was to use my left hand and it was always there even when I tried to be right handed, and it all became a mess eventually.

But the thinking was the same, just because you are born left handed, doesn't mean you have to be one. Be a righty and join the normal group of people.

Unless you are arguing that there is truly nothing moral or immoral (which I don't believe you are), then again this is irrelevant. Furthermore, I'd say your culture was wrong re: such being in any way morally wrong. Indeed that they were morally wrong to harm you. Why? Because you weren't doing them no harm, but they did you harm.

And you know what, the left-hand instinct never left. The beatings, the lectures, the logic, never made any real difference to the left-hand instinct. Except it introduced some right-handedness into me. I am now somewhere in the middle, I can change hands while playing sports, often completely confusing others and myself on a few occasions. If I play cricket, I'll ball with the right and bat from the left and throw from each side. I eat the same way and I used to write with both hands.

An interesting story neo-x. Sad too.
God shouldn't have created you left-handed.

Now someone can say, hey being gay and being left-handed isn't the same, and I'll tell you that being a pedophile and a gay isn't the same thing either. Nor is being born with violent tendencies is the same as being born gay any more than being left-handed is.

Hmm. Ok. Well, I don't see "being gay" as the same as "being left-handed."
I don't think people are their behaviour at all. And I think people can and do rise above their natural desires.

More importantly, there is nothing that comes close to breaking natural law being left-handed.
On the other hand, clearly the physical design in the natural world intends a certain order.

Now, people may disrespect such order, ignore that order and the like, but going against such has consequences regardless of people's sentiments. Btw, this doesn't just apply to homosexuality, but also having more than one sexual partner. I've seen the natural consequences play out in marriages where one cheats on the other. Both with children, and the one cheated on, and even the cheater. Yes, the natural consequences are often immaterial, but just because they're invisible (at least until it all bubbles up), such doesn't mean they're not nonetheless real. Sometimes, they're even physical, if for example a jealous partner flies into a rage and kills their spouse or the person cheated with. So... natural law (which isn't just about God) pays no respect to what you might get away with (because you won't), or whether you're actually born with a gene that wants to break with the design found in nature -- no, the person breaking it will wear the consequences and there is normally a fallout effect upon others too.

An example I often use; if a little boy is playing next to a cliff, and they slip, well "gravity" isn't going to say, poor kid didn't know better so I'm not going to dash his little body on the rocks below. There is a natural law in the world, and it doesn't just apply to physics. Go against it, there are consequences. It doesn't care if you're left-handed or right-handed, I can't see how it would. But, then there is a design in our world we all can see.

And I don't believe anyone is really born with violent tendencies. Nor do I believe anyone is really born a pedophile. Nor do I believe anyone is born gay. Yet, it stands to reason if being "gay" is gene related, then so too is pedophilia and so too are violent tendencies. And yet, we believe pedos and killers should rise above their nature in such and if they don't then it's justice to condemn and punish them for their natures they had no say in?

To someone who is born that way it's just impossible and painful to deal with. I am baffled, being born a pedofile, rapist or killer is somehow not a problem, but carrying out acts associated with such are? FWIW, this flies in the face of what Christ taught in the gospel. Even by looking at someone with an immoral desire, you have already sinned. The desire is the problem, not the act. So being a pedo, rapist or killer is the sin, especially if you have it as a born instinct. It is a sin through and through.

How do we justify this? Either God is unjust for making people like that or are we are missing something?

I hope you're not offended by my word substitutions with your own words. Hopefully it's become clear what is being missed. It's kind of clear to me, but anyway. Really, I'm not intending to ruffle your feathers here, but perhaps, just perhaps, everything about us, our sentience, intelligence, behaviour and the like doesn't have a 1:1 physical correlation.

But, if it does, even in the case of homosexuality, then God has given humans the power to rise above their nature and be more than merely follow some animalistic instinct. That, isn't found in our body, but our will in the very core of our psyche whatever such is made of.