Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: This is really not a difficult concept to comprehend if you understand the difference between "cause" and "effect"
The cause of salvation is grace
The cause of salvation is not works
The cause of works is salvation

Put another way
The effect of grace is salvation
The effect of salvation is works

The confusion occurs when a person fails to distinguish the difference between cause and effect

Rather ironic since you deny cause/effect in the next quote.

Which means all the people that believe this are trying to do works to prove they're saved.

Of course not!
That is just another of your strawman misrepesentations.

People who believe in LS are trying to be sensitive to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and become more like Christ every day. And when they submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit they will perform the good works that Jesus saved them to do.

There's nothing wrong with works or growth, the issue is their role in justifying the believer before God - which is none.

Again, if one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone then there's no requirement for works afterwards either, in fact, even a man with no evidence is still saved if he trusted Christ.

So again, my point about Judas and Samson still stands. One showed evidence and the other didn't, yet who the fruit inspectors would praise didn't actually believe, and who they would condemn actually did. And that's not even bringing up David and Samson.

What's silly about this is LS people are going to fruit inspect others, then when they fail inspection they're going to give them the gospel of grace and then look at their works. Then if they fail inspection, give them the gospel of grace again, then over and over. No wonder deathbed conversions were so popular back in the day. No one could stay saved.

And yes, there are works one must do according to LS to be saved in the first place, like "turn from sin"/

And no... that is another of your strawman misrepresentations.

Asserting that the phrase "turn from sin" implies works salvation is ridiculous.
"Turn from sin" is so undefined that it can mean any number of things depending on the context. You presume a specific definition that fits your agenda, and then you judge other Christians and accuse them of holding a position that has nothing to do with what they believe and have openly professed.

For example...
"Turn from sin" can easily mean...
I acknowledge that I am a sinner and there is nothing that I can do to save me from my sin. Therefore I will turn to Jesus and put my trust in Him to save me from my sin.

I think you really need to examine why you continue to misrepresent, presume the worst about, and pass judgment on a group of believers who openly confess to the following...

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.

In Christ

Umm, "turn from sin" is not in the Bible, period (It is, however, in the Book of Mormon, ironically).

Ray comfort defines it as "living a life of Holiness".

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

That's the definition of salvation-by-works right there.

So yeah, maybe you need to read up on LS before you try and defend it.

DBowling wrote:

People who believe in LS are trying to be sensitive to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and become more like Christ every day. And when they submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit they will perform the good works that Jesus saved them to do.

Mr. Bowling,

You sure you're arguing for LS?

That's what we've been saying all along. Specifically that when believers submit to the Holy Spirit, THEN they will perform good works.

Good works are the effect of salvation AND the believer living by the spirit. Good works are not the effect of salvation alone, necessarily. Someone can be saved, and be a carnal Christian. In that case, there may not be a whole lot of good works manifest in that believer.

RickD wrote:I bet our "resident expert" on this subject is chomping at the bit to respond.

I hope you don't mean me. lol.

SoCal,

Did MacArthur really say this?:

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

If that's an accurate quote, then I take back my claim that LS promotes back door works. He's obviously not trying to hide the fact that he's opening the front door and having a works "party".

"Salvation comes from a life lived in service and obedience..."

That's works defined!

SoCalExile wrote:

RickD wrote:I bet our "resident expert" on this subject is chomping at the bit to respond.

I hope you don't mean me. lol.

Haha.

No. You're already responding. I'm talking about the other guy who is not participating.




Usually when I prop him up, and call him an expert or something, his head gets all swelled up, and he has to respond.

RickD wrote:SoCal,

Did MacArthur really say this?:

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

If that's an accurate quote, then I take back my claim that LS promotes back door works. He's obviously not trying to hide the fact that he's opening the front door and having a works "party".

"Salvation comes from a life lived in service and obedience..."

That's works defined!

Notice the common factor in this article....personal performance.

Biblical salvation assures the salvation of whomever believes simply because Christ said, "he who believes has eternal life".

RickD wrote:SoCal,

Did MacArthur really say this?:

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

If that's an accurate quote, then I take back my claim that LS promotes back door works. He's obviously not trying to hide the fact that he's opening the front door and having a works "party".

"Salvation comes from a life lived in service and obedience..."

That's works defined!

Apparently after the outrage when the 1st edition of that book was published, he revised the statement and blamed it on his editor.
http://expreacherman.com/2012/04/18/joh ... n-message/

The new statement:

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic. Chapter 6 (page 93)"

which is still salvation-by-works.

SoCalExile wrote:

RickD wrote:SoCal,

Did MacArthur really say this?:

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

If that's an accurate quote, then I take back my claim that LS promotes back door works. He's obviously not trying to hide the fact that he's opening the front door and having a works "party".

"Salvation comes from a life lived in service and obedience..."

That's works defined!

Apparently after the outrage when the 1st edition of that book was published, he revised the statement and blamed it on his editor.
http://expreacherman.com/2012/04/18/joh ... n-message/

The new statement:

"Don’t believe anyone who says it’s easy to become a Christian. Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God’s Son His life, and it’ll cost you the same thing. Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic. Chapter 6 (page 93)"

which is still salvation-by-works.

But it is easy to become a Christian! Just believe on Christ!

Of course it's not easy to live as a disciple of Christ should live. But now we're talking about discipleship, not salvation.

SoCal,

There's nothing like reading the words directly from the horse's mouth. That way you can't be accused of straw man arguments.

RickD wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:

RickD wrote:I bet our "resident expert" on this subject is chomping at the bit to respond.

I hope you don't mean me. lol.

Haha.

No. You're already responding. I'm talking about the other guy who is not participating.




Usually when I prop him up, and call him an expert or something, his head gets all swelled up, and he has to respond.

He's probably just reading the thread and enjoying the back and forth.

fakeedit:

Reminds me of this thread, back when I was first developing my thoughts around FG v LS.

A good scripture that I just read regarding LS: Matthew 23:13.

It led the author to call it "loadship salvation" because of Matthew 23:4, and the fact it places a heavy burden on the people.

I wish I had more time to devote to this thread. It's become one of my favorite subjects.

Rick, are you familiar with the spat between MacArthur and Calvary Chapel over his slander of Chuck Smith at the Strange Fire conference?

SoCalExile wrote:Rick, are you familiar with the spat between MacArthur and Calvary Chapel over his slander of Chuck Smith at the Strange Fire conference?

No. Enlighten me.

SoCalExile wrote:

People who believe in LS are trying to be sensitive to the guidance of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and become more like Christ every day. And when they submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit they will perform the good works that Jesus saved them to do.

There's nothing wrong with works or growth, the issue is their role in justifying the believer before God - which is none.

Amen

Again, if one is saved by faith alone in Christ alone then there's no requirement for works afterwards either, in fact, even a man with no evidence is still saved if he trusted Christ.

A person who has put their trust in Christ is saved... period.
The point where we disagree is whether it is possible for a believer who has become a new creation and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit to exhibit no change in their behavior.
I just think your hypothetical saved man with no evidence is an impossibility. And I've presented quotes from Jesus, Paul, John, and James to support my position.

What's silly about this is LS people are going to fruit inspect others, then when they fail inspection they're going to give them the gospel of grace and then look at their works. Then if they fail inspection, give them the gospel of grace again, then over and over.

This is another one of those strawmen...
As I mentioned before Jesus strongly opposes the behavior that you are describing.
I am not called by God to judge others.
Man can only look on the outward appearance, but God can look at the heart.

Asserting that the phrase "turn from sin" implies works salvation is ridiculous.
"Turn from sin" is so undefined that it can mean any number of things depending on the context. You presume a specific definition that fits your agenda, and then you judge other Christians and accuse them of holding a position that has nothing to do with what they believe and have openly professed.

For example...
"Turn from sin" can easily mean...
I acknowledge that I am a sinner and there is nothing that I can do to save me from my sin. Therefore I will turn to Jesus and put my trust in Him to save me from my sin.

Umm, "turn from sin" is not in the Bible, period.

Granted...
Christians use a lot of terms that are not explicitly found in Scripture to describe Scriptural principles.
However, I think you would acknowledge that the principle of repentance for the forgiveness of sins is mentioned multiple times in Scripture.

John MacArthur, the guy who coined the term said: "Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions. There's no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93)

If this is genuine quote from MacArthur, then I have no problem publicly renouncing the portions that I placed in red.

My exposure to LS was through The Gospel According to Jesus and Faith Works.
I don't recall reading anything like what you quoted above. And there is nothing like that in link that we have been using as our 'fair representation' of LS.

Like I said before I have no problem disagreeing with MacArthur when he contradicts Scripture.
I don't embrace LS because of John MacArthur. I embrace LS because it accurately reflects the teaching of Scripture.

I'm not going to renounce the teaching of Scripture just because MacArthur says something that I profoundly disagree with.

Edit...

Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.

This revision removes the content that I found objectionable in the quote above.
I am in general agreement with this version

In Christ

Good DBowling. Seems like you're slowly coming around.

Salvation isn’t gained by reciting mere words. Saving faith transforms the heart, and that in turn transforms behavior. Faith’s fruit is seen in actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile. Remember that what John saw in his vision of judgment was a Book of Life, not a book of Words or Book of Intellectual Musings. The life we live, not the words we speak, reveals whether our faith is authentic.

You forgot to renounce the underlined part. The life we live reveals whether our faith is authentic? So, if we don't live a good enough life, our faith isn't authentic?

btw, what exactly is "authentic" faith? And how does it differ from faith?