Evidence for God from Science

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:07 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:25 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:50 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:12 pm Ok let's go back up a few posts...

Based on the answer you gave above, you believe that "great creatures of the sea" and "every winged bird" had never been created/bara before God created/bara them on Day 5 (Genesis 1:21)...
... Is that what you said?

Yes.

Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

No.

Do you believe Archaeopteryx was a "winged bird"?
Do you believe Archaeornithura was a "winged bird"?

Do you believe Plesiosaurus was a "great creature of the sea"?
Do you believe Megalodon was a "great creature of the sea"?

No! They look nothing like the birds in this world do.And dinosaurs are not in this world either.God created or made alligators and crocodiles for this world.Also by examing the fossils we can see the former world was a much different kind of world than this world is. Keep in mind of the words from the bible "the world at that time" 2nd Peter 3:6.

If there was no world at that time then explain why we find evidence of extinct life in the fossil record that once lived in the world at that time that was destroyed. We have evidence for a world at that time. If we did not I would reject the Gap Theory but the evidence confirms it correct.We see evidence in the fossil record of a world at that time that was destroyed and by comparing the kinds of life that once roamed the earth to the kinds of life we have in this world we can see that it was a much different kind of world than this world we now live in is.We also know that the former world lasted billions of years also from the fossil record.It is this interpretation and the evidence from the earth that convinces me this interpretation is correct.

As you know I reject evolution due to the lack of a credibile mechanism for life evolving and so I cannot accept Theistic Evolution and " A Lost World" that man has overlooked because of evolution makes more sense to me.

Because the world at that time was destroyed and there was a gap between that world and this world we now live in none of the life that lived in the former is or can be related to any life in this world like evolution tells us. They are wrong.

History needs to be rewritten because Christians failed to teach the Gap Theory and have been teaching other interpretations instead of the true one so that now creationism is in a crisis and Christians are made fun of and considered dumb from a scientific perspective. When the truth of God's word is overlooked it produces a famine in the land for the truth of God's word.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:15 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:07 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:25 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:50 pm
Yes.

Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

No.

Do you believe Archaeopteryx was a "winged bird"?
Do you believe Archaeornithura was a "winged bird"?

Do you believe Plesiosaurus was a "great creature of the sea"?
Do you believe Megalodon was a "great creature of the sea"?

No! They look nothing like the birds in this world do.And dinosaurs are not in this world either.

I didn't ask anything about 'which world' these "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea" were in.
I simply asked if they were "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea".

And the very obvious answer to both questions is yes.

That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

But wait... there's more...

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

DBowling wrote:


Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Oh Snap!

**waits to see how ACB wriggles out of this one**

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:15 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:07 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:34 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:25 pm
Do you believe that fossils of "great creatures of the sea" exist?
Do you believe that fossils of "winged birds" exist?

No.

Do you believe Archaeopteryx was a "winged bird"?
Do you believe Archaeornithura was a "winged bird"?

Do you believe Plesiosaurus was a "great creature of the sea"?
Do you believe Megalodon was a "great creature of the sea"?

No! They look nothing like the birds in this world do.And dinosaurs are not in this world either.

I didn't ask anything about 'which world' these "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea" were in.
I simply asked if they were "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea".

And the very obvious answer to both questions is yes.

That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

But wait... there's more...

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Genesis 1:20 Birds were made here then in the next verse birds were created also.Genesis 1:21. So the birds that were created would be new life that had never been created before and the birds made would not be new life. And the great sea creatures of the sea that were in the former world are now extinct and the sea creatures for this world are new life never created before.But your also overlooking that things were both created and made after its kind or after their kind or after his kind so that whether or not the life was new or old it was still based on life that had already existed before. Also eventhough I stick behind the fact of bara and asah as I have already explained I'm not claiming there were no winged creatures in the former world. The fossil record shows us the kinds of life that once lived in the world at that time before it was destroyed.

Also I want to know why you deny bara means something new while asah does not.
âśâh

Phonetic: aw-saw'
BDB Definition:
to do, fashion, accomplish, make
(Qal)
to do, work, make, produce
to do
to work
to deal (with)
to act, act with effect, effect
to make
to make
to produce
to prepare
to make (an offering)
to attend to, put in order
to observe, celebrate
to acquire (property)
to appoint, ordain, institute
to bring about
to use
to spend, pass
(Niphal)
to be done
to be made
to be produced
to be offered
to be observed
to be used
(Pual) to be made
(Piel) to press, squeeze

Bara

baw-raw'
BDB Definition:
to create, shape, form
(Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
of heaven and earth
of individual man
of new conditions and circumstances
of transformations
(Niphal) to be created
of heaven and earth
of birth
of something new
of miracles
(Piel)
to cut down
to cut out
to be fat
(Hiphil) to make yourselves fat
Origin: a primitive root
TWOT entry: 278
Part(s) of speech: Verb
Strong's Definition: A primitive root; (absolutely) to create ; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose

Look under bara

to create,shape form,of new conditions and circumstances,of heaven and earth,of birth,of something new.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:38 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 am
I didn't ask anything about 'which world' these "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea" were in.
I simply asked if they were "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea".

And the very obvious answer to both questions is yes.

That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

But wait... there's more...

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Genesis 1:20 Birds were made here then in the next verse birds were created also.Genesis 1:21.

Nice try... but you are misrepresenting what the text actually says.
There are two serious problems with your assertion above.
1. Genesis 1:20 and 21 both take place on Day 5, so that doesn't help resolve your contradiction with Genesis 1:21.
2. God doesn't make (asah) or create (bara) anything in Genesis 1:20. Look at the verse again.
You won't find either asah or bara anywhere in Genesis 1:20.

In Genesis 1:20 God is announcing what he is going to do, and in Genesis 1:21 God does the actual creating/bara of "every winged bird" and the "great creatures of the sea".

According to your own understanding of what bara means, God created/bara "every winged bird" for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:20 and 21.

You need to either rethink your definition of bara...
or you need to admit to yourself and others that your definition of bara does not allow for the existence of any "winged bird" prior to when God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5.

And you didn't respond to my last two questions...
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Also I want to know why you deny bara means something new while asah does not.

I've acknowledged the different meanings of asah and bara many times.

In fact you are the one contradicting your own definition of bara when you assert that "winged birds" existed in your hypothetical 'former world' before God created/bara them for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:38 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 am
I didn't ask anything about 'which world' these "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea" were in.
I simply asked if they were "winged birds" or "great creatures of the sea".

And the very obvious answer to both questions is yes.

That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

But wait... there's more...

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Genesis 1:20 Birds were made here then in the next verse birds were created also.Genesis 1:21.

Nice try... but you are misrepresenting what the text actually says.
There are two serious problems with your assertion above.
1. Genesis 1:20 and 21 both take place on Day 5, so that doesn't help resolve your contradiction with Genesis 1:21.
2. God doesn't make (asah) or create (bara) anything in Genesis 1:20. Look at the verse again.
You won't find either asah or bara anywhere in Genesis 1:20.

In Genesis 1:20 God is announcing what he is going to do, and in Genesis 1:21 God does the actual creating/bara of "every winged bird" and the "great creatures of the sea".

According to your own understanding of what bara means, God created/bara "every winged bird" for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:20 and 21.

You need to either rethink your definition of bara...
or you need to admit to yourself and others that your definition of bara does not allow for the existence of any "winged bird" prior to when God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5.

And you didn't respond to my last two questions...
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Also I want to know why you deny bara means something new while asah does not.

I've acknowledged the different meanings of asah and bara many times.

In fact you are the one contradicting your own definition of bara when you assert that "winged birds" existed in your hypothetical 'former world' before God created/bara them for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.

I just want to say that I appreciate the challenge you have made.You see I like to be challenged about this interpretation because I want to make sure it is correct.So I welcome challenges to the Gap Theory creation interpretation.

While I will acknowledge that I may could have elaborated better on what I was explaining,based on me showing that the word bara applies to new things I am still right in principle because bara does apply to new things God created.

So any life God created would be new life never created before as I said but God created great sea creatures,winged birds,etc after their kind. Alot of people overlook these phrases "after their kind","after its kind" ,"After his kind" but this is not only evidence that life existed already but it is also evidence the earth is old and not young. This is why I try to point this out to old earth creationists.This is how Christians in the past and specifically Gap Theorists knew the earth was old and not young,plus they knew life had already existed before which was confirmed correct in the 17 and 1800's when modern science was making discoveries in the earth.This is also why the Gap theory interpretation became so popular then because it was confirmed correct.It was Gap Theorists that came up with the idea of pre-Adamite races from studying the bible before hominids were even discovered,but once they were,it was like a fulfilled bible prophecy.

How do you think Charles Darwin was able to take the hominids and imply they evolved into man? They had already been discovered long before Darwin and it confirmed the Gap Theory was true about pre-Adamite races that once lived in the former world.

So the answer to your questions is that God both made and created life after their kind and so some of it woud have been new life created after their kind,while other life that was made after their kind and would have been old life. This is why we find pelican fossils,this would have been the old life God made after their kind.

Now I see you claim that asah is not in Genesis 1:20 and you interpret it to mean only things on day 5 were created and you blend both verse 20 and 21 together.While I don't because God both made and created life.For instance check out Genesis 1:25 because you'll see asah or made instead of bara or created new. God also made the firmament also Genesis 1:7 and so just because God speaks does not mean it is created like you assume in verse 20 Genesis 1:20.Also check out Genesis 1:16 where God made(asah)two great lights so they were not new but already existed.

My point is God mostly made things in Genesis 1 and only created new things on day 5 and 6. Also keep in mind there were pre-Adamite races that once lived in the former world like hominids,neanderthals,cro-magnon,etc and yet God created male and female humans in his image.

It would have been new life based on old life.
This is why right after Genesis chapter 1 and beginning with Genesis chapter 2.In Genesis 2:1-4 you'll see Moses uses both bara and asah and is trying to get us to notice the difference when we read Genesis chapter 1. You claim you acknowledge the differences between bara and asah but yet seem to doubt it in this case.

I'll make an open challenge to anybody who doubts the differences between bara and asah in the OT. It has been awhile,but I did a word study on bara and asah throughout the whole OT and I know that it is consistant throughout the whole OT. This is a big reason why I believe the Gap Theory interpretation is true and the critics are wrong when they claim they are interchangeable words.

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:08 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:38 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 am That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Genesis 1:20 Birds were made here then in the next verse birds were created also.Genesis 1:21.

There are two serious problems with your assertion above.
1. Genesis 1:20 and 21 both take place on Day 5, so that doesn't help resolve your contradiction with Genesis 1:21.
2. God doesn't make (asah) or create (bara) anything in Genesis 1:20. Look at the verse again.
You won't find either asah or bara anywhere in Genesis 1:20.

In Genesis 1:20 God is announcing what he is going to do, and in Genesis 1:21 God does the actual creating/bara of "every winged bird" and the "great creatures of the sea".

According to your own understanding of what bara means, God created/bara "every winged bird" for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:20 and 21.

You need to either rethink your definition of bara...
or you need to admit to yourself and others that your definition of bara does not allow for the existence of any "winged bird" prior to when God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5.

And you didn't respond to my last two questions...
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Also I want to know why you deny bara means something new while asah does not.

I've acknowledged the different meanings of asah and bara many times.

In fact you are the one contradicting your own definition of bara when you assert that "winged birds" existed in your hypothetical 'former world' before God created/bara them for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.

I just want to say that I appreciate the challenge you have made.You see I like to be challenged about this interpretation because I want to make sure it is correct.So I welcome challenges to the Gap Theory creation interpretation.
....

Now I see you claim that asah is not in Genesis 1:20 and you interpret it to mean only things on day 5 were created and you blend both verse 20 and 21 together.

The reason I claim that asah is not in Genesis 1:20 is because asah is not in Genesis 1:20.
Go back to the Scriptural text... asah is either in Genesis 1:20 or it isn't.
This is easy to prove. Show me where asah is used in Genesis 1:20 and I will be happy to acknowledge it here.

But if asah is not used in Genesis 1:20 (as I claim) then I think that you should be willing to acknowledge that asah is not in the text of Genesis 1:20. That is an easy one to prove.

BTW... I never claimed that only things on Day 5 were created/bara... I have pointed out where bara is used elsewhere in Genesis 1 a number of times.
What I am saying is this...
When Genesis 1:21 lists creatures that God created/bara on Day 5
that means... wait for it...
God created/bara the creatures listed in Genesis 1:21 on Day 5.

My point is God mostly made things in Genesis 1 and only created new things on day 5 and 6.

So...
Back to our friends the Pelicans...
Did God create/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Is the Pelican a "winged bird"?
Did God create/bara Pelicans on Day 5?

Genesis 1:21 and our friends the Pelicans demonstrate very clearly both the Scriptural flaws and the Scientific flaws that are inherent in the Gap theory.

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:37 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:08 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:12 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:38 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:43 am That is why Genesis 1:21 directly contradicts your assertions about the Gap Theory.

According to your assertions...
- "Winged birds" such as Archaeopteryx and Archaeornithura existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "all winged birds" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.
- "Great creatures of the sea" such as Plesiosaurus and Megalodon existed in your hypothetical former world before God created/bara "great creature of the sea" for the very first time on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

This directly contradicts the assertion that you made earlier in this thread
"when God created something it is ALWAYS something new that had never been created before"

Even more importantly, your assertions directly contradict what God's Word says in Genesis 1:21.

Here are two more questions to consider.
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Genesis 1:20 Birds were made here then in the next verse birds were created also.Genesis 1:21.

There are two serious problems with your assertion above.
1. Genesis 1:20 and 21 both take place on Day 5, so that doesn't help resolve your contradiction with Genesis 1:21.
2. God doesn't make (asah) or create (bara) anything in Genesis 1:20. Look at the verse again.
You won't find either asah or bara anywhere in Genesis 1:20.

In Genesis 1:20 God is announcing what he is going to do, and in Genesis 1:21 God does the actual creating/bara of "every winged bird" and the "great creatures of the sea".

According to your own understanding of what bara means, God created/bara "every winged bird" for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:20 and 21.

You need to either rethink your definition of bara...
or you need to admit to yourself and others that your definition of bara does not allow for the existence of any "winged bird" prior to when God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5.

And you didn't respond to my last two questions...
Do you believe Pelicans are "winged birds"?
Do you believe that fossils of Pelicans exist?

Also I want to know why you deny bara means something new while asah does not.

I've acknowledged the different meanings of asah and bara many times.

In fact you are the one contradicting your own definition of bara when you assert that "winged birds" existed in your hypothetical 'former world' before God created/bara them for the very first time on Day 5 according to Genesis 1:21.

I just want to say that I appreciate the challenge you have made.You see I like to be challenged about this interpretation because I want to make sure it is correct.So I welcome challenges to the Gap Theory creation interpretation.
....

Now I see you claim that asah is not in Genesis 1:20 and you interpret it to mean only things on day 5 were created and you blend both verse 20 and 21 together.

The reason I claim that asah is not in Genesis 1:20 is because asah is not in Genesis 1:20.
Go back to the Scriptural text... asah is either in Genesis 1:20 or it isn't.
This is easy to prove. Show me where asah is used in Genesis 1:20 and I will be happy to acknowledge it here.

But if asah is not used in Genesis 1:20 (as I claim) then I think that you should be willing to acknowledge that asah is not in the text of Genesis 1:20. That is an easy one to prove.

BTW... I never claimed that only things on Day 5 were created/bara... I have pointed out where bara is used elsewhere in Genesis 1 a number of times.
What I am saying is this...
When Genesis 1:21 lists creatures that God created/bara on Day 5
that means... wait for it...
God created/bara the creatures listed in Genesis 1:21 on Day 5.

My point is God mostly made things in Genesis 1 and only created new things on day 5 and 6.

So...
Back to our friends the Pelicans...
Did God create/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Is the Pelican a "winged bird"?
Did God create/bara Pelicans on Day 5?

Genesis 1:21 and our friends the Pelicans demonstrate very clearly both the Scriptural flaws and the Scientific flaws that are inherent in the Gap theory.

I acknowledge asah is not in Genesis 1:20 but neither is bara either.And based on how I proved bara means new things and asah means previous things that existed or exists depending on context or not new things and I proved that just because God speaks does not mean created,which you asked about earlier ,and that God both made and created life after their kind the scientific evidence confirms this correct.

Not only that but the scientific evidence proves a former world existed as this interpretation predicts,it also proves the previous world was destroyed also based on how much life is extinct but it also proves it was a different kind of world than this world is.And in the future when this earth is destroyed by fire and then restored again it will be a different world than this world is also. The first time the earth was destroyed by water but next time it is fire.2nd Peter 3:3-9. So that the scientific evidence confirms this interpretation correct.This is just examining the fossils and not getting into any other evidence a former world existed. According to science it is confirmed correct.

Abe, one should not cherry pick science. You seem to not trust science but only when it suits your interpretation? You either accept it or don't. You can't however hijack evolutionary concepts, like you are doing here, and say that science found evidence of the former world. Science has evidence of evolution. You seem to reject their evidence and at the same time use it for your own?

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:12 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:37 pm Back to our friends the Pelicans...
Did God create/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Is the Pelican a "winged bird"?
Did God create/bara Pelicans on Day 5?

Genesis 1:21 and our friends the Pelicans demonstrate very clearly both the Scriptural flaws and the Scientific flaws that are inherent in the Gap theory.

I acknowledge asah is not in Genesis 1:20 but neither is bara either.

correct...

But bara IS there in Genesis 1:21... will you agree with me on that?
And will you also acknowledge that God creates/bara "all winged birds" on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21?
Will you also acknowledge that according to Genesis 1 "winged birds" are neither made (asah) or created (bara) before God creates/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21?

I proved bara means new things

And based on your own definition of bara as creating 'new things', that means that according to Genesis 1:21, God created "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5.

Which means God did NOT either make (asah) or create (bara) "winged birds" prior to Day 5.
This also means that according to Genesis 1:21, "every winged bird" that appears in the fossil record existed AFTER "every winged bird" was created on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

Not only that but the scientific evidence proves a former world existed as this interpretation predicts

No it doesn't..
Science shows that "winged birds" have existed on our planet for around 150 million years.
And science also shows that our friends the Pelicans have existed on our planet for 30 million years.

And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

DB:
And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

These are massive problems for Gap Theorists! And why so insistent upon a former world when Progressive Creationism offers good answers for the fossil record, ancient age for the earth - and most importantly - it doesn't contradict Scripture to do so, as does Gap Theory.

And from a apologetic standpoint, it's ineffective and pointless, as only a tiny percentage of a percent of qualified theologians and Hebrew scholars have ever seriously entertained it - and most of THOSE were in the distant past! So if you don't have any substantial number of Bible scholars and theologians backing this, then next to no one but loon conspiracy nut-types would ever embrace it. And the ones who would are almost certainly already Christians who believe the world was created by God.

The absurd belief that GT can be an effective tool for pre-evangelism to those who don't believe in God is simply a fantasy, as unbelievers universally believe life was uncreated and somehow evolved, and that the fossil record we see is the result of that one, already "incredible to have occurred evolutionary record." As an apologetic, using the fossil record is useless - as there is already a grand argument between theists and non-theists over it, and even a substantial argument between theists over it, and overwhelmingly those on all sides of what is asserted about the fossil record don't believe in this former world nonsense. And remember, GT has been around a very long time, and yet it is universally laughed at by theists, Christians, agnostics, and atheists - and yet it's supposed to have apologetic value? That's simply delusional!

Philip wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:48 am

DB:
And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

These are massive problems for Gap Theorists! And why so insistent upon a former world when Progressive Creationism offers good answers for the fossil record, ancient age for the earth - and most importantly - it doesn't contradict Scripture to do so, as does Gap Theory.

And from a apologetic standpoint, it's ineffective and pointless, as only a tiny percentage of a percent of qualified theologians and Hebrew scholars have ever seriously entertained it - and most of THOSE were in the distant past! So if you don't have any substantial number of Bible scholars and theologians backing this, then next to no one but loon conspiracy nut-types would ever embrace it. And the ones who would are almost certainly already Christians who believe the world was created by God.

The absurd belief that GT can be an effective tool for pre-evangelism to those who don't believe in God is simply a fantasy, as unbelievers universally believe life was uncreated and somehow evolved, and that the fossil record we see is the result of that one, already "incredible to have occurred evolutionary record." As an apologetic, using the fossil record is useless - as there is already a grand argument between theists and non-theists over it, and even a substantial argument between theists over it, and overwhelmingly those on all sides of what is asserted about the fossil record don't believe in this former world nonsense. And remember, GT has been around a very long time, and yet it is universally laughed at by theists, Christians, agnostics, and atheists - and yet it's supposed to have apologetic value? That's simply delusional!

This is why I'm convinced seeing is believing.I'm convinced that it is going to take debates Gap Theory vs The Theory of Evolution debates.And once people actually see how the Gap Theory defeats the Theory of Evolution by offering a much more believable theory than evolution based on alot of the same evidence The Gap Theory will then get the credit it deserves.We've all seen debates with young earth creationism and Intelligent Design and neither has been able to defeat the Theory of Evolution. Remember the majority has been wrong before about a an interpretation and it can happen again. You cannot just make a case for the problems with evolution like they have but you have to show why evolution is not true and then provide a much more believable theory based on the evidence. We can do this using the Gap Theory as we can go through the whole fossil record and use it to prove a former world existed and we can show that no fossil shows any evidence of transitioning or evolving.We can explain that they are adding evolution imagination into the fossil record. This is just using the fossils. A Lost World will be more believable than the the Theory of Evolution once we go through the evidence and use it to prove a former world different than this world did indeed exist as is predicted by this interpretation.Then a revival will break out and we can actually reach scientific minded people to Christ.It is hard to now even if you're a Theistic evolutionist as atheists reject this also.

DBowling wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:44 am

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:12 pm

DBowling wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:37 pm Back to our friends the Pelicans...
Did God create/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Is the Pelican a "winged bird"?
Did God create/bara Pelicans on Day 5?

Genesis 1:21 and our friends the Pelicans demonstrate very clearly both the Scriptural flaws and the Scientific flaws that are inherent in the Gap theory.

I acknowledge asah is not in Genesis 1:20 but neither is bara either.

correct...

But bara IS there in Genesis 1:21... will you agree with me on that?
And will you also acknowledge that God creates/bara "all winged birds" on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21?
Will you also acknowledge that according to Genesis 1 "winged birds" are neither made (asah) or created (bara) before God creates/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21?

I proved bara means new things

And based on your own definition of bara as creating 'new things', that means that according to Genesis 1:21, God created "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5.

Which means God did NOT either make (asah) or create (bara) "winged birds" prior to Day 5.
This also means that according to Genesis 1:21, "every winged bird" that appears in the fossil record existed AFTER "every winged bird" was created on Day 5 in Genesis 1:21.

Not only that but the scientific evidence proves a former world existed as this interpretation predicts

No it doesn't..
Science shows that "winged birds" have existed on our planet for around 150 million years.
And science also shows that our friends the Pelicans have existed on our planet for 30 million years.

And since "winged birds" and Pelicans show up in the fossil record that directly contradicts the Gap Theory premise of a 'former world'.
So not only does the Gap Theory directly contradict Scripture (Genesis 1:21), The Gap Theory is also contradicted by science and the fossil record, since species (such as the Pelican) that are still alive today also appear in the fossil record.

Which brings us back to our Pelican questions...
Do you agree with me that God created/bara "every winged bird" on Day 5 (see Genesis 1:21)?
Do you agree with me that the Pelican is a "winged bird"?
Are you willing to acknowledge that Pelicans did not exist before God created/bara "every winged bird" as a 'new thing' on Day 5?

I am glad you brought this up as it is something that I had not considered and now I am aware of it.I'm still not convinced it is a contradiction as I showed you that bara apples to new things and so I have to believe that there were new pelicans created after their kind.It could be a new version of the pelican based on prior pelicans or birds that lived before.The same thing would apply to Pre-Adamite races that lived in the former world and yet man and woman was created new in God's image for this world.It does not mean that there is not a difference between bara and asah as you seem to be implying. Still you did teach me something new that I was not aware of,but am now.

Plus you're overlooking how Gap Theorists knew birds lived in the former world Jeremiah 4:25.Gap Theorists knew life existed in the former world and predicted it based on bible study. They knew the earth is old and not young also.Now for you to reject Jeremiah 4:25 as a look back in time to the former world as Gap Theorists believe and you think it is a future prophecy you must find a time in the future when there will be no man and the birds of heaven are fled,Because as bad as the tribulation is man is still here when Jesus returns and they repopulate the earth in his 1000 year reign and birds are not fled.There is never a time in the future of bible prophecy when there will be no man.God promised after Noah's flood that he would never destroy all life off of the earth again like he once did.But there were Pre-Adamite races that lived in the former world and they are now extinct and there were birds in the former world too.

neo-x wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 pm Abe, one should not cherry pick science. You seem to not trust science but only when it suits your interpretation? You either accept it or don't. You can't however hijack evolutionary concepts, like you are doing here, and say that science found evidence of the former world. Science has evidence of evolution. You seem to reject their evidence and at the same time use it for your own?

Why not? Gap Theorists who know about the history of the Gap theory know Charles Darwin hyjacked the fossil evidence away from Gap Theorists. You see Charles Darwin in his book "The origin of species" mentioned William Buckland claiming that Buckland would agree with him about the fossils,but Buckland died about a year before his book was published and William Buckland taught the Gap Theory.He believed it and taught it. A young Charles Darwin went out on fossil hunting expiditions with Buckland and so he knew Buckland believed the fossils he found was the life that lived in the former world.The rest is history inwhich Darwin convinced the world that there is something here with evolution.Scientists have had 160 years to confirm him right and failed but they did not falsify evolution.

How we found out evolution is true. For you.
https://youtu.be/18YwBwIK_no

abelcainsbrother wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:45 pm

neo-x wrote: ↑Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:55 pm Abe, one should not cherry pick science. You seem to not trust science but only when it suits your interpretation? You either accept it or don't. You can't however hijack evolutionary concepts, like you are doing here, and say that science found evidence of the former world. Science has evidence of evolution. You seem to reject their evidence and at the same time use it for your own?

Why not? Gap Theorists who know about the history of the Gap theory know Charles Darwin hyjacked the fossil evidence away from Gap Theorists. You see Charles Darwin in his book "The origin of species" mentioned William Buckland claiming that Buckland would agree with him about the fossils,but Buckland died about a year before his book was published and William Buckland taught the Gap Theory.He believed it and taught it. A young Charles Darwin went out on fossil hunting expiditions with Buckland and so he knew Buckland believed the fossils he found was the life that lived in the former world.The rest is history inwhich Darwin convinced the world that there is something here with evolution.Scientists have had 160 years to confirm him right and failed but they did not falsify evolution.

How we found out evolution is true. For you.
https://youtu.be/18YwBwIK_no

I'm surprised you didn't say Darwin just didn't interpret the evidence differently, which he did, independently it would seem.
Take for instance Darwin's Finches.