Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:One thing the Flynn plea doesn't prove - which is the entire reason the special investigator was put on this case - it does NOT prove that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to meddle in the election!

Collusion hasn't been proven... yet.
What has been proven is that Trump lied repeatedly (big surprise there) when he claimed that his campaign had no interaction with the Russians. We now know that Trump's team had multiple interaction with the Russians during both the campaign and the transition, and that multiple members of Trump's team have lied about the nature of those interactions.
And we do not know what Mueller knows.

Now that interaction with the Russians has been demonstrated (despite Trump's denials and lies), the next question becomes does the nature of that interaction meet the criteria of collusion.
Another outstanding issue is what interaction did members of the Trump campaign have with Wikileaks during the campaign.
And then there is also the outstanding issue of potential Obstruction of Justice.

So Mueller definitely has his hands full.

DBowling wrote:

Philip wrote:One thing the Flynn plea doesn't prove - which is the entire reason the special investigator was put on this case - it does NOT prove that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to meddle in the election!

Collusion hasn't been proven... yet.
What has been proven is that Trump lied repeatedly (big surprise there) when he claimed that his campaign had no interaction with the Russians. We now know that Trump's team had multiple interaction with the Russians during both the campaign and the transition, and that multiple members of Trump's team have lied about the nature of those interactions.
And we do not know what Mueller knows.

Now that interaction with the Russians has been demonstrated (despite Trump's denials and lies), the next question becomes does the nature of that interaction meet the criteria of collusion.
Another outstanding issue is what interaction did members of the Trump campaign have with Wikileaks during the campaign.
And then there is also the outstanding issue of potential Obstruction of Justice.

So Mueller definitely has his hands full.

We do know what Mueller knows if we are informed and Mueller was actually apart of the Uranium one deal and Flynn knows all about it too.Some think Mueller is putting pressure on Flynn to keep him quite about his knowledge,while I totally disagree.Trump and Mueller met before Trump even ran and even when Trump was interviewing people at Trump Tower to fill positions.They have a plan to bust the real Russian colluders the Democrats.Also why do you think Obama got rid of Flynn? It was because he knew too much and was making a fuss about it.The Democrats are going to regret what they've done to Flynn once all is said and done.Trump could pardon Flynn too.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

DBowling wrote:

Philip wrote:One thing the Flynn plea doesn't prove - which is the entire reason the special investigator was put on this case - it does NOT prove that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to meddle in the election!

Collusion hasn't been proven... yet.
What has been proven is that Trump lied repeatedly (big surprise there) when he claimed that his campaign had no interaction with the Russians. We now know that Trump's team had multiple interaction with the Russians during both the campaign and the transition, and that multiple members of Trump's team have lied about the nature of those interactions.
And we do not know what Mueller knows.

Now that interaction with the Russians has been demonstrated (despite Trump's denials and lies), the next question becomes does the nature of that interaction meet the criteria of collusion.
Another outstanding issue is what interaction did members of the Trump campaign have with Wikileaks during the campaign.
And then there is also the outstanding issue of potential Obstruction of Justice.

So Mueller definitely has his hands full.

We do know what Mueller knows if we are informed and Mueller was actually apart of the Uranium one deal and Flynn knows all about it too.Some think Mueller is putting pressure on Flynn to keep him quite about his knowledge,while I totally disagree.Trump and Mueller met before Trump even ran and even when Trump was interviewing people at Trump Tower to fill positions.They have a plan to bust the real Russian colluders the Democrats.Also why do you think Obama got rid of Flynn? It was because he knew too much and was making a fuss about it.The Democrats are going to regret what they've done to Flynn once all is said and done.Trump could pardon Flynn too.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't have enough faith that Mueller will have the courage to go after the Clintons and the democrats. I hope you're right though.

While I've not read through it all, here is a published timeline of pre-election Trump campaign associates interacting with Russians: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... K-vXjGwKKb

Of course, these documentations would prove Trump knew of the meetings and contacts and lied about it. But it in no way buttresses the Hillary fiction that "the Russians stole the election."

Byblos wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

DBowling wrote:

Philip wrote:One thing the Flynn plea doesn't prove - which is the entire reason the special investigator was put on this case - it does NOT prove that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians to meddle in the election!

Collusion hasn't been proven... yet.
What has been proven is that Trump lied repeatedly (big surprise there) when he claimed that his campaign had no interaction with the Russians. We now know that Trump's team had multiple interaction with the Russians during both the campaign and the transition, and that multiple members of Trump's team have lied about the nature of those interactions.
And we do not know what Mueller knows.

Now that interaction with the Russians has been demonstrated (despite Trump's denials and lies), the next question becomes does the nature of that interaction meet the criteria of collusion.
Another outstanding issue is what interaction did members of the Trump campaign have with Wikileaks during the campaign.
And then there is also the outstanding issue of potential Obstruction of Justice.

So Mueller definitely has his hands full.

We do know what Mueller knows if we are informed and Mueller was actually apart of the Uranium one deal and Flynn knows all about it too.Some think Mueller is putting pressure on Flynn to keep him quite about his knowledge,while I totally disagree.Trump and Mueller met before Trump even ran and even when Trump was interviewing people at Trump Tower to fill positions.They have a plan to bust the real Russian colluders the Democrats.Also why do you think Obama got rid of Flynn? It was because he knew too much and was making a fuss about it.The Democrats are going to regret what they've done to Flynn once all is said and done.Trump could pardon Flynn too.

While I agree with most of what you said, I don't have enough faith that Mueller will have the courage to go after the Clintons and the democrats. I hope you're right though.

Well from everything I know I think that Trump let it be known that he was going to persue the Uranium One deal and made it clear to Mueller that he can help or possibly be linked to it as well and Mueller chose to cooperate.But I am sure Mueller is under pressure from the Clintons,etc to go after Trump but I think he is cooperating with Trump.Trump knew all about the corruption in our government which is why he ran on draining the swamp and so he has had a plan on how to go after them for a long time.So eventhough I'm sure the Clintons,etc are putting pressure on Mueller so is Trump to do the right thing.

Trump and campaign denials of Russian contact: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... gn-denials

Of course, how Trump has phrased things is to deny their was collusion - and that is totally unproven. But the guy's a deal maker, it should surprise no one that he had dealings with people from Russia. The REAL question is, WHAT EXACTLY was the nature of those meetings?

Philip wrote:Trump and campaign denials of Russian contact: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... gn-denials

Of course, how Trump has phrased things is to deny their was collusion - and that is totally unproven. But the guy's a deal maker, it should surprise no one that he had dealings with people from Russia. The REAL question is, WHAT EXACTLY was the nature of those meetings?

OK,but Trump has been accused of colluding with the Russians.This is why this whole investigation was started and so I think it is just word games going on.It has gone from Russian collusion to now Trump officials met with Russian ambassadors which is not a crime at all and is normal as has been stated already.So I think that it is possible when certian people are questioned by the FBI they are denying collusion by saying they had no Russian contact.Because it is quite normal to meet with the ambassadors of other countries so they are really denying collusion but claiming they had no contact.But even if they really lied about meeting with Russian officials though it still pales in comparison to the treason and evil that has been going on in our government and has been covered up by so many people for so long.

The Democrats and media and the link you posted are implying it is a crime to have contact with ambassadors of other countries,when it is'nt. But for now on,no Democrat in a transition team is allowed any contact with ambassadors of other countries at anytime,because it means you're colluding with them,thanks to their own spin.

Philip wrote:While I've not read through it all, here is a published timeline of pre-election Trump campaign associates interacting with Russians: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... K-vXjGwKKb

Of course, these documentations would prove Trump knew of the meetings and contacts and lied about it. But it in no way buttresses the Hillary fiction that "the Russians stole the election."

The Intelligence Communities have concluded the following:
- the Russian government engaged in electoral interference during the 2016 U.S. presidential election.
- Russian president Vladimir Putin personally ordered an "influence campaign" to harm Clinton's electoral chances and "undermine public faith in the US democratic process."

Now the impact of Putin's "influence campaign" on the American voters may be open to debate. But whether you consider the Russian efforts successful or not, the intelligence community has determined that the Russians did attempt to interfere in the 2016 election to the benefit of Trump.

And KT McFarland from Trump's transition team (definitely not a Hillary partisan) said the following
“If there is a tit-for-tat escalation Trump will have difficulty improving relations with Russia, which has just thrown the U.S.A. election to him”

So the claim that the Russians interfered in the 2016 Presidential election to the benefit of Trump is not a partisan Democratic fiction.

That is why it is important to determine the nature of the dialogue (that has now been established) between the Russians and the Trump campaign before Trump actually became President.
Did the Trump campaign know about or knowingly participate in the Russian electoral interference?
Was some sort of quid quo pro established between the Trump campaign and Russia for Putin's "influence campaign"?

These are the questions that Mueller needs to answer.

Please, how can they determine that Putin himself ordered anything. It's just one big guess.

What exactly is "interference" anyway. The numbers that are being talked about are in the 0.004% - 0.5% range. Not having hardly any influence on anything. Facebook and Twitter testified to the fact that Russia's influence was so small that it might as well not have been even considered. Compare that to the Democrats/Hillary's multi-million dollar campaign and any influence Russia supposedly had over the election was a joke.

Compare that to the 85 or so times America has directly influenced other countries elections, including Israel's latest election, and what Russia supposedly done is minuscule.

Stu wrote:Please, how can they determine that Putin himself ordered anything. It's just one big guess.

If you or I were to make that statement... it would be no more than speculation.
For the Intelligence communities to present official public conclusions goes beyond "one big guess" and obviously involves sources of information that cannot be made public to you or me.

What exactly is "interference" anyway.

Here's how the Intelligence community described the "interference".

On October 7, 2016, the ODNI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) jointly stated that the U.S. Intelligence Community was confident that the Russian Government directed recent hacking of e-mails with the intention of interfering with the U.S. election process. According to the ODNI′s January 6, 2017 report, the Russian military intelligence service (GRU) had hacked the servers of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the personal Google email account of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta and forwarded their contents to WikiLeaks. In January 2017, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper testified that Russia also interfered in the elections by disseminating fake news that was promoted on social media.

I'm not sure it is possible to precisely quantify the impact that the Wikileaks revelations and the Russian 'fake news' had on the views of the American electorate.

However, the issue here is not necessarily whether the Russian interference and influence campaign were effective.
The real issue is whether or not the Trump campaign was aware of and/or cooperated with the interference and influence campaign of a hostile foreign government.

DB, you're kind of like a broken record. I see lots of wolf crying, but never the wolf. The sky is also still up where it belongs now Trump's been in almost a year.

Kurieuo wrote:DB, you're kind of like a broken record. I see lots of wolf crying, but never the wolf. The sky is also still up where it belongs now Trump's been in almost a year.

And every day that goes by just continues to confirm what I have been saying about Trump since the Republican primaries.

However you are right on this. The sky is still where it belongs.
And God still reigns.
America was strong enough to survive 8 years of Obama, and I'm sure it is strong enough to survive 4 years of Trump.

DBowling wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:DB, you're kind of like a broken record. I see lots of wolf crying, but never the wolf. The sky is also still up where it belongs now Trump's been in almost a year.

And every day that goes by just continues to confirm what I have been saying about Trump since the Republican primaries.

However you are right on this. The sky is still where it belongs.
And God still reigns.
America was strong enough to survive 8 years of Obama, and I'm sure it is strong enough to survive 4 years of Trump.

The difference is it was DESPITE Obama!

DB: Here's how the Intelligence community described the "interference".

On October 7, 2016, the ODNI and the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) jointly stated that the U.S. Intelligence Community was confident that the Russian Government directed recent hacking of e-mails with the intention of interfering with the U.S. election process. According to the ODNI′s January 6, 2017 report, the Russian military intelligence service (GRU) had hacked the servers of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and the personal Google email account of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta and forwarded their contents to WikiLeaks. In January 2017, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper testified that Russia also interfered in the elections by disseminating fake news that was promoted on social media.

Wow, so Russian might have tried to influence a U.S. election??? So what ELSE is new? Shocking, right - well, not exactly: http://time.com/4851449/trump-jr-russia ... y-history/ They always tried to devious ways of influencing or damaging the U.S.!

DB: However, the issue here is not necessarily whether the Russian interference and influence campaign were effective. The real issue is whether or not the Trump campaign was aware of and/or cooperated with the interference and influence campaign of a hostile foreign government.

Yes, IF the Trump campaign colluded with Russia to influence the campaign. But if that merely includes accepting documents or information from them that could be damaging to the Clintons - THAT is NOT colluding with the campaign. It's utilizing whatever evidences one can find. You think the Clintons and virtually all presidential campaigns don't build a dossier on opponents? Of course they do, always have. But such is not colluding/plotting with foreign governments.

Whatever, A) we don't have a shred of proof of colluding with the Russians, and B) it is pure fiction that the Russian's won the election for Trump. Clearly, there has been much animosity between Putin and Trump. MANY millions of moderate to conservative voters - people who despised the Clintons and viewed them as dangerous, corrupt opportunists, nonetheless did not vote? Why? Because they couldn't stomach Trump's often-ridiculous nonsense and gameshow-host approach to politics, his crassness and juvenile obsessions. This tells me that a more respectful, sober/reasonable-talking conservative would have made the election far greater loss of Clinton. And millions of conservatives who didn't like many things about Trump (like me), nonetheless held their noses and voted Trump, as they viewed the Clintons as far more likely to take us further down a road already paved with 8 years of destructive policies and appointments. If anything, the hacking and leaking of Democratic emails by the Russians merely FURTHER revealed what the those who already despised the Clintons already thought about them - because now they were seeing even further proof of how they had long been operating. These leaks helped open a lot of people's eyes, but traditional Democrats were still not about to vote for Trump.

All that said, Trump has a LOT of flaws. He is an absolute idiot for involving his family in the White House inner circle. You don't get to be a billionaire without tons of connections worldwide. I should be no surprise that Russians used intermediaries to try to gain influence. But that the Trump campaign COLLUDED with them - zero proof of that presently exists! And now we see that Mueller's top aide was foaming-at-the-mouth Trump hater. NO freaking WONDER Hillarie's email probe fizzled out!

But make no mistake, IF the Trump campaign plotted with the Russians to grab the election, All guilty heads should roll!

I think it is going to take time for people to realize the good Trump is doing.I know it seems like nothing is really being done about the corruption in our government but there is.But we must first realize that the corruption in our government has been there for years and years and so it takes time to clean it all out.But it is being done and eventually you're going to be glad when you see military style tribunals and these people being held accountable for their crimes. We must realize that as long as this corruption in our government remains it does not matter whether or not we have a Republican or Democrat in office because no matter who it is they are compromised and are carrying out a secret globalist agenda.Trump knew this and he is going to clean it out and once it is done then we can go back to right/left politics but right now we cannot accept the status-quo two party system.The corruption is going to have to be cleaned out first and until it is we are neither Republicans or Democrats,but just the people restoring our country from all sides and parties.We have risen above both parties and we know that the best both parties do when in power is not good for America and America has so much more potential than both parties give when they are in power.And so America suffers when it could be avoided.It must stop and it will but it ois going to take time.