Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:59 pm

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:44 am What then of those Jews who rejected Christ's Gift of Salvation? Did that automatically condemn them to Hell? Of course not, but they did remain under the OT law.

Rejecting Christ's gift of salvation does not afford them another salvation. The only salvation is that through Christ. I think we agree. Though again, we must clarify which laws are those that the OT believer/pre-crucifixion believer was UNDER and as it has to do with the covenant...of blood...those are the ceremonial laws. The Decalogue does not point to Christ. The Decalogue points to sin. e.g. Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 So the law that is obsolete is those ceremonial laws that pointed to Christ...that is the law nailed to the cross.

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:44 am Those Jews who accepted Christ did not. They became in Christ and Christ in them. It no longer required any distinction between Jew and Gentile, etc. per your NT scriptures above.

We agree.

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:44 am Did the NT then simply ignore OT Jewish believers and instead devote preaching the Gospel only to Gentiles? Again, of course not. The effort to bring those under the law continued in the NT. Now, would the disciples preach to those under the law the same as to Gentiles? Of course not because Gentiles have nothing to do with the law and the OT.

We, "Gentiles" are no longer under the old covenant, True. That covenant was spoken of specifically by Christ. e.g. Luke 22:20 It's the covenant of blood. The new covenant is that of Christ's blood.

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:44 am So again, my original point was that in reading NT scripture, it should be taken into consideration who is being addressed, Jew or Gentile, because the message leads to the same end, but is different according to the audience; Jew or Gentile.
This clears up what otherwise appears to be scriptural contradictions. It in no way detracts one dot from Christ's message.
If this still remains unclear to you, or if you want to insist I am misquoting scripture, then so be it, but I will not continue this further. It is either spiritually evident or it is not, and that's OK, since what's REALLY important here is that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ. On that there can be no dispute.

I don't know that I ever said you were misquoting scripture...did I? I think I said it was others here, but I apologize if that seemed to include you.

We are all brothers and sisters in Christ...but again there is at least one other person that has said certain things were given ONLY to the Jews. My contention is not that it wasn't given to Jews, it's that "ONLY" part that concerns me since salvation has always been for ALL except that God entrusted a certain family, if you will, to carry the torch.

Do you or anyone else reading along think that if a Gentile or non-Jew in the days of Abraham believed the 'Jewish religion' and followed the dictates of the ceremonial laws that they would not be counted as part of Abraham's seed...heir to the promise through the spilling of animal blood as a sign of faith?

Even the blood of the Paschal lamb that was painted on the door posts at the Exodus protected all whom were inside the home(s), not just the Jews. e.g. Exodus 12:48,49 which alludes to that fact...if foreigners could celebrate later, one could make the argument that the original Passover included non-Jews also passed over.

I've asked questions on your position but I don't see that you've misquoted anything. It seemed to me that we were in more agreement than disagreement.
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Hello BW,
You wrote,"Do you or anyone else reading along think that if a Gentile or non-Jew in the days of Abraham believed the 'Jewish religion' and followed the dictates of the ceremonial laws that they would not be counted as part of Abraham's seed...heir to the promise through the spilling of animal blood as a sign of faith?"

12 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. [Genesis 12:1-3}

3 ":And I will bless them that bless thee"
Obviously God's blessing was not reserved only for the Jews as this scripture clearly states.
What I am unsure of here however is whether or not those who blessed the Jews and were therefore part of God's Promise
were also under the law. That is mute since it does not impinge on our salvation, Jew or Gentile.

No, I did not believe you thought I misquoted scripture, but in our passing each other above, I considered it, hence my remark.

We actually are in total agreement (like minded), as it should be and for that I am grateful.

Thank for the clarity BW. God Bless
Cheers and

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:13 pm Obviously God's blessing was not reserved only for the Jews as this scripture clearly states.
What I am unsure of here however is whether or not those who blessed the Jews and were therefore part of God's Promise
were also under the law. That is mute since it does not impinge on our salvation, Jew or Gentile.

I think we have two OT examples that speak to your question here. Both of these are examples of Gentiles who put their faith in the God of Israel. However, one became part of God's covenant people Israel, and the other didn't.

Rahab was a Gentile who put her faith in YHWH and also became part of God's covenant people Israel.
There are certain blessings that Rahab received simply for becoming a follower of YHWH. But in the case of Rahab she also received additional blessings associated with becoming part of God's covenant people Israel. And obeying the Law that God established with his covenant people would be part of Rahab obeying God's will for his covenant people.

Naaman was a Gentile who also put his faith in YHWH, but Naaman did not become part of God's covenant people Israel.
Like Rahab, Naaman received the blessings associated with becoming a follower of YHWH. However, since Naaman did not become part of God's covenant people Israel, Naaman did not benefit from those blessings that were unique to Israel. And since Naaman was not part of God's covenant people Israel, obedience to the Mosaic Law was not part of obeying God's will for Naaman. However, Naaman was still responsible for obeying those truths that God revealed to him.

DBowling wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:05 am

RockyMidnight wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:13 pm Obviously God's blessing was not reserved only for the Jews as this scripture clearly states.
What I am unsure of here however is whether or not those who blessed the Jews and were therefore part of God's Promise
were also under the law. That is mute since it does not impinge on our salvation, Jew or Gentile.

I think we have two OT examples that speak to your question here. Both of these are examples of Gentiles who put their faith in the God of Israel. However, one became part of God's covenant people Israel, and the other didn't.

Rahab was a Gentile who put her faith in YHWH and also became part of God's covenant people Israel.
There are certain blessings that Rahab received simply for becoming a follower of YHWH. But in the case of Rahab she also received additional blessings associated with becoming part of God's covenant people Israel. And obeying the Law that God established with his covenant people would be part of Rahab obeying God's will for his covenant people.

Naaman was a Gentile who also put his faith in YHWH, but Naaman did not become part of God's covenant people Israel.
Like Rahab, Naaman received the blessings associated with becoming a follower of YHWH. However, since Naaman did not become part of God's covenant people Israel, Naaman did not benefit from those blessings that were unique to Israel. And since Naaman was not part of God's covenant people Israel, obedience to the Mosaic Law was not part of obeying God's will for Naaman. However, Naaman was still responsible for obeying those truths that God revealed to him.

Good Morning DBowling!
Thank you for this! Admittedly, I'm not as proficient in all the OT scriptures as I should be. I appreciate you enlightening me on this. Now I know!
Cheers!

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm NO one holds up their salvation with human effort! It is GOD who initiates, guides and completes one's salvation. What, are you going to "boast" that YOU kept your salvation intact because of YOUR faithfulness???!!!

No boasting. I don't think it's boasting to use the intellect God gave us. God gave us the intellect to choose and that is what we must do. We must remain in Him. ( John 15:4 )

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm That's not even the question. The questions are, how were you saved to begin with - via GOD's hand of offering it, of making you understand what was being offered / of realizing you must make a choice, or is it partially a work of humans? You could boast if it were - but you cannot ever do so because it isn't!

It's not me that promotes a faith THAT WORKS...it is scripture. The works are simply evidence of our faith, not the manner in which we are saved. It's not a Faith-Plus-Works salvation. I'm pretty sure you understand the difference.

Bav: It's odd because belief/faith is a choice we MUST make...otherwise it's not true love for God. Can't we fall in "love" with another? I know a fair number of people that claim they DID have trust in Christ at one point ( who am I to judge their heart? ). Things went wrong in their life and their prayers seemed to go unanswered and too many unanswered questions that arose, went without answer...leading to them rejecting the existence of God altogether, not to mention "trust" in Christ.

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they WERE not of us; for if they HAD BEEN of us, they WOULD HAVE continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Notice the tense of those who abandoned what APPEARED to be faith in Christ. John says such people NEVER had faith in Christ, because if they had, they would continue to have it. People can have all the appearances of being saved, but their hearts and minds were never filled with faith in Jesus!

Both Paul and John write of having confidence of our fate before God. Again, how could that be possible if you think you can lose your salvation? Bav, do you think you are maintaining your own faith?

Maintain? No. But He maintains it as I submit.

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm 1 John 4:17: "By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment..."

How can John assert God's love is "PERFECTED" in us if it can become corrupted? How could he ever assert we can have such confidence - IF we could still lose our faith? Notice, the confidence of being secure in our eternal fate involves an event and time that is yet to come. But that confidence would be impossible if one could later loose their faith and salvation. But God tells us we can boldly face death with confidence!

I think my point is plainly made in 1 John 4:15: "If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God."

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:46 pm So, Bav, per your belief, you have NO idea if you will remain saved. And if that is the case, and you are depending upon YOUR own ability to be faithful to your last breath, then YOU should rightfully feel VERY fearful. You're human, right? You're asserting many others were once saved and later they no longer were - what, do you think you are better, stronger, more moral and loving of God than you assert they ONCE were? So this confidence that Paul and John asserted we can HAVE if we are already ("currently") saved - they are talking about and speaking to believers, many of them, at the time, long from death. So, how could they possibly assert such confidence is possible, particularly if they, like you, believe that confidence is based upon sinful, mortal men not to screw up, to not stay faithful? Of course, if that were the basis of this confidence they speak of, they couldn't have such - as how could they?

So, Bav, do you have any confidence that you will be with God in eternity - and if so, WHY? Based upon some self effort you will one day PLAN to "boast" about? And as you can't know your entire remaining life, you certainly must feel the pressure, the uncertainty, the wondering if there is anything that you, like all those other sinful Christians you assert, might later abandon Christ? What is so special about you or anyone to have this confidence in THEMSELVES for their yet "unknown" future fate? Scripture says GOD completes our salvation? Yet, you say YOU must. I'll go with Scripture!

My confidence is in Christ...that He will save me because I believe.

Is salvation not based on choice? I choose Christ.

Have you chosen Christ or has that choice been forced on to you?

1 John 4:15 If anyone acknowledges...
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Bav: My confidence is inhttps://discussions.godandscience.org/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=42475 Christ...that He will save me because I believe.

So, you have no way of knowing you will remain saved, because in your view it will be entirely based upon YOUR faithfulness to keep Believing - and that is ALL on you??? What you assert about your eternity, you cannot know. What Paul and John assert is that we CAN know NOW, and that it's entirely God's work pre and post salvation, and that it is ETERNAL. You could not believe without God's opening you eyes and enlightening you, and no one can retain their faith in their own power. And if it is dependent upon what God does, then all can have this confidence. There is no such thing as you assert - TEMPORARY eternal life. You also must believe that God makes mistakes - He saves people while fully knowing it won't take - which is totally absurd to believe.

Note also, you are blurring what Paul and John said the surety of our confidence is in - once saved, they assert remaining so until the last breath is ENTIRELY upon what GOD will do, and not upon what you will. Paul and John had no idea about whether anyone could have confidence in their salvation being eternal, except if it is God who keeps us faithful. You assert we must. You also ignore what John said about those who appeared to be saved but later walk away - it's because they were never saved to begin with, as he notes if they HAD been, they would never have left. You assert people were saved and later walk away because there is such a thing as temporary salvation and that PEOPLE must maintain their faith - a direct contradiction of who Paul says begins, maintains, and completes it.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:39 am

Bav: My confidence is inhttps://discussions.godandscience.org/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=42475 Christ...that He will save me because I believe.

So, you have no way of knowing you will remain saved, because in your view it will be entirely based upon YOUR faithfulness to keep Believing - and that is ALL on you??? What you assert about your eternity, you cannot know. What Paul and John assert is that we CAN know NOW, and that it's entirely God's work pre and post salvation, and that it is ETERNAL. You could not believe without God's opening you eyes and enlightening you, and no one can retain their faith in their own power. And if it is dependent upon what God does, then all can have this confidence. There is no such thing as you assert - TEMPORARY eternal life. You also must believe that God makes mistakes - He saves people while fully knowing it won't take - which is totally absurd to believe.

Note also, you are blurring what Paul and John said the surety of our confidence is in - once saved, they assert remaining so until the last breath is ENTIRELY upon what GOD will do, and not upon what you will. Paul and John had no idea about whether anyone could have confidence in their salvation being eternal, except if it is God who keeps us faithful. You assert we must. You also ignore what John said about those who appeared to be saved but later walk away - it's because they were never saved to begin with, as he notes if they HAD been, they would never have left. You assert people were saved and later walk away because there is such a thing as temporary salvation and that PEOPLE must maintain their faith - a direct contradiction of who Paul says begins, maintains, and completes it.

You're reading through your confirmation bias and not paying attention to what I say.

I said, "My confidence is in Christ".

But I noticed you also neglected to answer my questions.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:44 am

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:39 am

Bav: My confidence is inhttps://discussions.godandscience.org/posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=42475 Christ...that He will save me because I believe.

So, you have no way of knowing you will remain saved, because in your view it will be entirely based upon YOUR faithfulness to keep Believing - and that is ALL on you??? What you assert about your eternity, you cannot know. What Paul and John assert is that we CAN know NOW, and that it's entirely God's work pre and post salvation, and that it is ETERNAL. You could not believe without God's opening you eyes and enlightening you, and no one can retain their faith in their own power. And if it is dependent upon what God does, then all can have this confidence. There is no such thing as you assert - TEMPORARY eternal life. You also must believe that God makes mistakes - He saves people while fully knowing it won't take - which is totally absurd to believe.

Note also, you are blurring what Paul and John said the surety of our confidence is in - once saved, they assert remaining so until the last breath is ENTIRELY upon what GOD will do, and not upon what you will. Paul and John had no idea about whether anyone could have confidence in their salvation being eternal, except if it is God who keeps us faithful. You assert we must. You also ignore what John said about those who appeared to be saved but later walk away - it's because they were never saved to begin with, as he notes if they HAD been, they would never have left. You assert people were saved and later walk away because there is such a thing as temporary salvation and that PEOPLE must maintain their faith - a direct contradiction of who Paul says begins, maintains, and completes it.

You're reading through your confirmation bias and not paying attention to what I say.

I said, "My confidence is in Christ".

But I noticed you also neglected to answer my questions.

And you wonder why people have a problem with you here.

Your actual quote that Philip quoted was this:

My confidence is in Christ...that He will save me because I believe.

And you claimed he had confirmation bias, even though you misquoted yourself, leaving out the part of your own quote here:

I said, "My confidence is in Christ".

that Philip had a problem with, and addressed. Notice how you left out "because I believe", which was the part of your quote that Philip addressed?

Is there any chance you can have any semblance of an honest conversation with anyone?

RickD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:05 am Is there any chance you can have any semblance of an honest conversation with anyone?

Is there any chance you can take what I say in light of the verses I've quoted?

1 John 4:15 states something. What is it?

It states that whomever ACKNOWLEDGES...GOD WILL...

Therefore, my point stands. I have confidence in Christ. I believe and therefore, God will...

You're falling into the same confirmation bias of believing something is wrong based on what you THINK I'm saying.

Is there any chance you can have any semblance of an honest conversation with me?
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BAV: It states that whomever ACKNOWLEDGES...GOD WILL...

Therefore, my point stands. I have confidence in Christ. I believe and therefore, God will...

You're not addressing the point that takes away your ability to have confidence in your salvation, as it's, critically, a dependency upon yourself: "I believe, and therefore, CONDITIONALLY, God will. But what about your part? How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will...? Because you say "God will" but dependent upon YOU continuing to believe. If what you assert is true, you have no way of knowing YOU will continue in belief until your last day, and therefore, per your asserted contingency in the matter (God will IF you will), you have no idea if God will UNLESS you will. And, as you cannot see the future, you have no way of knowing YOU will. Related: Do you think you came to belief without God's help? If so, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help? But you didn't and you can't. You are unquestionably and directly contradicting what both Paul and John said!

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:52 pm

BAV: It states that whomever ACKNOWLEDGES...GOD WILL...

Therefore, my point stands. I have confidence in Christ. I believe and therefore, God will...

You're not addressing the point that takes away your ability to have confidence in your salvation, as it's, critically, a dependency upon yourself: "I believe, and therefore, CONDITIONALLY, God will. But what about your part? How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will...? Because you say "God will" but dependent upon YOU continuing to believe. If what you assert is true, you have no way of knowing YOU will continue in belief until your last day, and therefore, per your asserted contingency in the matter (God will IF you will), you have no idea if God will UNLESS you will. And, as you cannot see the future, you have no way of knowing YOU will. Related: Do you think you came to belief without God's help? If so, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help? But you didn't and you can't. You are unquestionably and directly contradicting what both Paul and John said!

Why so much controversy on exactly the concept the scriptures teach?

John 3:16
1 John 4:15
John 15:4
John 14:15
Isaiah 58:13,14
Matthew 4:19
Matthew 7:7
Luke 11:9
James 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:7

Etc.

It is a daily struggle to remain in Christ. I am a sinner, the likes of Paul, if not worse, that what I don't want to do, I do and what I do want to do, I don't do...etc. My faith is weak, but if my less-than-mustard-seed-faith continues in Christ, HE WILL PERFECT IT as saving faith.
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Matthew 9:20-22 NIV wrote:20Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.”

22Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.

Who's faith? The woman acted and Jesus says it was her faith that healed her...

Does this mean we possess perfect saving faith? No, I don't think so. We are given enough brain function to make decisions and while our faith is imperfect, seeking God's healing, perfects our faith and it is God who ultimately heals us...but we have the ability to choose or not choose God.

Matthew 9:27-29 NIV wrote:27As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!”

28When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?”

“Yes, Lord,” they replied.

29Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30and their sight was restored.

According to who's faith?
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Bav: Why so much controversy on exactly the concept the scriptures teach?

Because the key points I made show you are contradicting Scripture in what you assert. And I asked you three key questions relating specifically to the issue of how Paul and John say we can have full confidence NOW concerning our eternal life, and they base that upon what eternal life truly is, when it starts, and that it lasts FOREVER - all of which are certain ONLY because of GOD'S actions, not of man's.

So, please answer the following questions:

How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will save you?

Do you think you came to belief without God's help?

If you needed God's help to come to faith, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help?

When John says that those who faded away and abandoned Christ did so only because they were never believers to begin with, and that if they HAD been of faith, they would have remained with them, do you not see how his teachings contradicts the idea that one can lose their faith?

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 pm

Bav: Why so much controversy on exactly the concept the scriptures teach?

Because the key points I made show you are contradicting Scripture in what you assert. And I asked you three key questions relating specifically to the issue of how Paul and John say we can have full confidence NOW concerning our eternal life, and they base that upon what eternal life truly is, when it starts, and that it lasts FOREVER - all of which are certain ONLY because of GOD'S actions, not of man's.

I've plainly shown that I am not contradicting scripture. I've given the plain words of scripture that agree that we must have faith in order that God will save...

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 pm So, please answer the following questions:

How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will save you?

Because Christ says He is in us.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 pm Do you think you came to belief without God's help?

Of course not. God gave Man a brain to use and He gave us the ability to exercise our own will. Without that, we would be nothing or not a thinking creation.

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 pm If you needed God's help to come to faith, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help?

Nonsense. I accept God's help. I accept He is God. I accept Christ and believe His blood will cover mine...I accept through faith. Who said I can keep believing without His help?

Philip wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:13 pm When John says that those who faded away and abandoned Christ did so only because they were never believers to begin with, and that if they HAD been of faith, they would have remained with them, do you not see how his teachings contradicts the idea that one can lose their faith?

There certainly seems to be a contradiction, but not the sort that YOU THINK it is otherwise, Christ wouldn't warn His disciples of anything. If your kind of belief is such that NOTHING can change your mind or your direction as soon as you "truly" believe, then why would Jesus...God...warn about being deceived? You're talking nonsense and not using the logic God gave you to use.

Did you see the movie, "A Few Good Men"? It's the same reason/argument that Lt. Kaffey makes against Col. Jessup. Why was Santiago due to be moved off the base if the Col. ordered that Santiago NOT BE TOUCHED...and the Col's orders are always followed...???? Why was Santiago still in danger??

You're making the same mistake in reasoning that Lt. Kaffe was making in defense of the two marines.

You're completely wrong.
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Philip: How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will save you?

Bav: Because Christ says He is in us.

So you believe because Christ is in us. Do you also believe He will abandon us? If He were not in us, do you think you could continue to believe?

Philip: Do you think you came to belief without God's help?

Bav: Of course not. God gave Man a brain to use and He gave us the ability to exercise our own will. Without that, we would be nothing or not a thinking creation.

Then why do you think you could continue to believe without His help - because either He is sustaining your belief or you are. As it is He who sustains it, why don't you believe it's sufficient?

Philip: If you needed God's help to come to faith, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help?

Bav: Nonsense. I accept God's help. I accept He is God. I accept Christ and believe His blood will cover mine...I accept through faith. Who said I can keep believing without His help?

You have repeatedly said that unless YOU continue to believe, that you will lose your salvation. You have also indicated that a person can yet reject Christ by discontinuing acceptance of His help. But only if His help is insufficient to sustain your belief, would you reject it. Only if He would not empower your belief, would you still have it. You ONLY believe now because God made it possible and now sustains it. You either believe because of God's help, or on your own. If it's ONLY because of God's help (Scripture says) that people continue to believe, then they WILL unless HE withdraws from them - which God says He will never do. John says ONLY saved people REMAIN in the faith, and that all do - but you deny it. Paul says God completes our salvation to the very end - and thus why he can state that he is "confident" of it. And note why he states that he hast this confidence - and not one aspect of it has to do with anything about the believer's ability to maintain or sustain his faith - in fact, quite the opposite.

Philip: When John says that those who faded away and abandoned Christ did so only because they were never believers to begin with, and that if they HAD been of faith, they would have remained with them, do you not see how his teachings contradicts the idea that one can lose their faith?

Bav: There certainly seems to be a contradiction, but not the sort that YOU THINK it is otherwise, Christ wouldn't warn His disciples of anything. If your kind of belief is such that NOTHING can change your mind or your direction as soon as you "truly" believe, then why would Jesus...God...warn about being deceived? You're talking nonsense and not using the logic God gave you to use.

Of course Jesus and His Apostles would warn us of deceptions - we're still mortal, still able to incur the ramifications of being deceived by false teachers / false doctrine. Non-Christians can deceive themselves by only being cosmetically and outwardly manifesting Christianity - God says to examine our hearts, minds and motivations. But as for enabling and sustaining our belief, which you partially acknowledge, you don't believe God's power and love is sufficient to protect your faith. And if He doesn't KNOW and SEE you in eternity with Him, why do you think He chose to save anyone - does He do this pointlessly? Made a mistake? See, with what both Paul and John declare about Believers having full confidence NOW and FOREVER that they will enter God's Glory AND that they ALREADY have entered eternal life, as if not so, NO one could have any confidence that this is unquestionable. And unless one believes its ONLY dependent upon God helping them to remain in the faith, and that with His help THEY WILL, then no one could have the confidence that the Apostles emphasis we can have.

One either believes that God's power, love and help upon those He saves is sufficient to maintain their salvation until death and beyond, or not. I happen to believe the Apostles - that show "confidence" - not in any great Christian to keep believing, but only by the power of the God who saved us to begin with. How else could they have this confidence, in themselves or anyone else? The logical reality is that without God sustaining faith, NO confidence of eternal life is merited by anyone!

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm

Philip: How do you know YOU will CONTINUE to believe, so that God will save you?

Bav: Because Christ says He is in us.

So you believe because Christ is in us. Do you also believe He will abandon us? If He were not in us, do you think you could continue to believe?

The statement; "Remain in me, and I will remain in you." John 15:4 Seems to suggest there exists a reciprocal to our remaining. Or do you think Jesus didn't say the above? Doesn't John 3:16 also suggest something from our part? "...that whosoever believe..."

This is not to say that salvation is of our making, of our faith. Our making is an impossibility and our faith is insufficient...yet we still must put our faith to work or it is useless faith. James 2:14-24

Hebrews 12:2 confirms He perfects our faith and another action that we must do...fix our eyes on Jesus.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm

Philip: Do you think you came to belief without God's help?

Bav: Of course not. God gave Man a brain to use and He gave us the ability to exercise our own will. Without that, we would be nothing or not a thinking creation.

Then why do you think you could continue to believe without His help - because either He is sustaining your belief or you are. As it is He who sustains it, why don't you believe it's sufficient?

Where did I say I could continue to believe without His help? God can only sustain a person's belief if that person SUBMITS to God. Hence the "Remain in me" that Christ cautioned among other like cautions. I don't know how you get the idea that I'm sustaining my belief!

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm

Philip: If you needed God's help to come to faith, how do you think you can KEEP believing without His help?

Bav: Nonsense. I accept God's help. I accept He is God. I accept Christ and believe His blood will cover mine...I accept through faith. Who said I can keep believing without His help?

You have repeatedly said that unless YOU continue to believe, that you will lose your salvation.

Wrong. I have presented to you the clear words of scripture that make this statement and I agree with. "Remain in me, and I will remain in you." Are those NOT Christ's words?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm You have also indicated that a person can yet reject Christ by discontinuing acceptance of His help. But only if His help is insufficient to sustain your belief, would you reject it. Only if He would not empower your belief, would you still have it. You ONLY believe now because God made it possible and now sustains it. You either believe because of God's help, or on your own. If it's ONLY because of God's help (Scripture says) that people continue to believe, then they WILL unless HE withdraws from them - which God says He will never do. John says ONLY saved people REMAIN in the faith, and that all do - but you deny it. Paul says God completes our salvation to the very end - and thus why he can state that he is "confident" of it. And note why he states that he hast this confidence - and not one aspect of it has to do with anything about the believer's ability to maintain or sustain his faith - in fact, quite the opposite.

Then again, your point above is to say that Christ is speaking with a forked tongue. So either you are right in your interpretation or Christ's words allude to the possibility that a believer can be deceived unless they REMAIN in Christ. Now whom are you going to believe, your biased interpretation or Christ's clear words of caution to BELIEVERS?

Philip: When John says that those who faded away and abandoned Christ did so only because they were never believers to begin with, and that if they HAD been of faith, they would have remained with them, do you not see how his teachings contradicts the idea that one can lose their faith?

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm Bav: There certainly seems to be a contradiction, but not the sort that YOU THINK it is otherwise, Christ wouldn't warn His disciples of anything. If your kind of belief is such that NOTHING can change your mind or your direction as soon as you "truly" believe, then why would Jesus...God...warn about being deceived? You're talking nonsense and not using the logic God gave you to use.

Of course Jesus and His Apostles would warn us of deceptions - we're still mortal, still able to incur the ramifications of being deceived by false teachers / false doctrine.

NO!! You JUST said above: "You either believe because of God's help, or on your own. If it's ONLY because of God's help (Scripture says) that people continue to believe, then they WILL unless HE withdraws from them - which God says He will never do."

Now...either you believe what you just said, or you believe that you can be deceived because, "we're still mortal, still able to incur the ramifications of being deceived by false teachers / false doctrine." Those are your words!! Which is it??

I tend to believe what you're saying...and what Christ's words allude to...that we are mortal and CAN BE DECEIVED so..."Remain in me..."

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm Non-Christians can deceive themselves by only being cosmetically and outwardly manifesting Christianity - God says to examine our hearts, minds and motivations. But as for enabling and sustaining our belief, which you partially acknowledge, you don't believe God's power and love is sufficient to protect your faith.

Nor do you...as evidenced by your words; "we're still mortal, still able to incur the ramifications of being deceived by false teachers / false doctrine."

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm And if He doesn't KNOW and SEE you in eternity with Him, why do you think He chose to save anyone - does He do this pointlessly? Made a mistake? See, with what both Paul and John declare about Believers having full confidence NOW and FOREVER that they will enter God's Glory AND that they ALREADY have entered eternal life, as if not so, NO one could have any confidence that this is unquestionable. And unless one believes its ONLY dependent upon God helping them to remain in the faith, and that with His help THEY WILL, then no one could have the confidence that the Apostles emphasis we can have.

The confidence I have is not in me, but in Christ and His blood...that at the moment I accept Christ, I AM saved. That is true...but Christ's words convey a message that ( as you even admit ) we are mortal and can stray away, but we are to REMAIN in Him...that is an ACTIVE faith. See James 2:14-24 as I already mentioned.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm One either believes that God's power, love and help upon those He saves is sufficient to maintain their salvation until death and beyond, or not. I happen to believe the Apostles - that show "confidence" - not in any great Christian to keep believing, but only by the power of the God who saved us to begin with. How else could they have this confidence, in themselves or anyone else?

"...not in any great Christian to keep believing..." Again, your words are confusing and I'm not trying to create a straw man argument, but do you really believe that there's no need to "keep believing" when the MOST QUOTED biblical verse is 100% about belief.

Philip wrote: ↑Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:05 pm The logical reality is that without God sustaining faith, NO confidence of eternal life is merited by anyone!

God sustains our faith. I agree. But there are two operative pieces in those 4 words.

1. God sustains. ( an action )
2. Our faith. ( an action ) See James 2
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