Evidence for God from Science

B. W. wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 12:10 pm

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:22 am

B. W. wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 8:11 am

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 7:56 amChrist fulfilling the law means He was not under the curse of the law, not that the law ended...as you even prove by repeating murder above...though He willfully BECAME a curse for us, not in that He sinned, but that He willfully took on the curse of the law.

So Jesus paid the price for breaking the sabbath law too and thus Col 2:16 is indeed true

Col 2:16, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths..." NKJV

Amen!

Great point Bav!

The context of Colossians 2:16 is not on the Sabbath of the 10, but of the sabbaths of new moons, festival sabbaths.
There is no law about food or drink in the Decalogue. So while it is correct that no one should judge anyone on food or drink or sabbaths, it is not speaking about the Sabbath made holy at creation.

Clearly the law Paul speaks about in Romans 3:20, is a specific Law which was specifically handed down from God to His people...and if we are Christians to be grafted into the Vine...that Vine being of Jewish/Hebrew decent, it is not a matter of something being handed to only Jews and not to Christians...

And again, payment for breaking of a law is not being absolved in continuing to keep the law. Just because I pay the penalty for speeding, does not absolve me from ever having to keep from speeding again!

So, what I am hearing you say is this, that Jesus atoned for all sins except breaking the Saturday sabbath?

Wouldn't that mean, then, that his sacrifice was not a sufficient sacrifice for all sins?

You're only hearing what you want to hear.

Jesus atoned for all sin...completely...for all time.

Jesus' did not atone and therefore REMOVE the Law. Jesus' atonement REMOVED THE CURSE OF THE LAW.

Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 ... those texts say something not so extraordinary except to the people that think the law is removed/abolished.

I challenge you to point me to a text where God, like it was instituted at Sinai, removes the Decalogue.
.
.

neo-x wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 pm Only a jew knows sin from the law. The Christian knows it from Christ's teachings which at times goes against what the ot claims. Plus most of the decalouge Is straight forward common sense. Don't lie don't steal, etc etc, these ideas exist outside of the law as well, and any functioning society would have them.

Jesus was a Jew...do we not call ourselves "Christians?. Are we not grafted as Gentiles into the Jewish Vine?

The Law, the Decalogue IS A CHRIST teaching except "we" didn't know the God of Creation's human name when He presented it in STONE and then to be written on our hearts.

You're creating a very large contradiction in your theology.
.
.

A few of you are simply not looking at the texts to see how they read, but looking at other texts in light of a perceived idea.

How does a person that believes the law is abolished reconcile that belief with Romans 3:20 and Romans 7:7 for starters?

Is sin abolished?
.
.

Bav,

Your argument is faulty because it is based on a faulty premise.

Let me see if I can help.

1) the 10 commandments were given as a law to all people, directly from God

2) God hasn't removed the 10 commandments as a law, in the same way that He gave them

3) the 10 commandments still apply to us as believers


the conclusion, 3, is wrong, because the premise 1, is wrong.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm Bav,

Your argument is faulty because it is based on a faulty premise.

Let me see if I can help.

1) the 10 commandments were given as a law to all people, directly from God

2) God hasn't removed the 10 commandments as a law, in the same way that He gave them

3) the 10 commandments still apply to us as believers


the conclusion, 3, is wrong, because the premise 1, is wrong.

With respect, RickD...

Are Jews the only sinners within humanity?

Who are sinners?

Who did Christ die for?

If Christ died for ALL, then all are guilty of sin.

The law points at sin.

Therefore the Law is for all people.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:43 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:38 pm Bav,

Your argument is faulty because it is based on a faulty premise.

Let me see if I can help.

1) the 10 commandments were given as a law to all people, directly from God

2) God hasn't removed the 10 commandments as a law, in the same way that He gave them

3) the 10 commandments still apply to us as believers


the conclusion, 3, is wrong, because the premise 1, is wrong.

With respect, RickD...

Are Jews the only sinners within humanity?

Who are sinners?

Who did Christ die for?

If Christ died for ALL, then all are guilty of sin.

The law points at sin.

Therefore the Law is for all people.
.
.

Of course the purpose of the law was to point to sin, to point to the fact that nobody is righteous by observing the law, and to point forward to Christ's redemptive work.

I agree!

But you are taking that a step further. A step which isn't based on proper exegesis of scripture.

You are claiming that a law, specifically Sabbath observance as given to the nation of Israel as described in exodus 20, not only points forward to Christ, which I agree with, but also must be observed by people to whom were never told to observe it!

Again, the laws shows that we are all sinners, and need Christ. That doesn't follow, that we must observe the sabbath, to know we are sinners that need Christ.

The fact still remains that the OT law, including the 10, was never given to gentile believers to follow. That's why there is no scripture that says the law was given to gentile believers.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:54 pm Of course the purpose of the law was to point to sin, to point to the fact that nobody is righteous by observing the law, and to point forward to Christ's redemptive work.
I agree!

We agree.

Edit: We agree up to your second comma.

Wait! The law does not point forward to Christ's redemptive work. The law points at sin! The Sabbath ( which is one tenth of the whole Law ) plays a part of that redemptive work, but it's overall purpose is to be celebrated weekly because God is Creator of all...the Sabbath was/is a celebration of God's Creative work, but also a celebration of our rest in Christ through His redemptive work. It plays both fields, so to speak. That Christ is our rest is a celebration of the latter...not the former.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:54 pm But you are taking that a step further. A step which isn't based on proper exegesis of scripture.

You are claiming that a law, specifically Sabbath observance as given to the nation of Israel as described in exodus 20, not only points forward to Christ, which I agree with, but also must be observed by people to whom were never told to observe it!

Again, the laws shows that we are all sinners, and need Christ. That doesn't follow, that we must observe the sabbath, to know we are sinners that need Christ.

It's not a step further. Romans 3:20 states it, Romans 7:7 states it.

I didn't say that we must observe the Sabbath to know we are sinners...! How have you gotten that from what I've been saying?

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 1:54 pm The fact still remains that the OT law, including the 10, was never given to gentile believers to follow. That's why there is no scripture that says the law was given to gentile believers.

No...it was given to God's people. Are you not part of God's people? Are you not grafted into the Vine?

Of course not...because the law points to sin...and sin is in both Jews AND Gentiles...if all people are sinners and the law points at sin, then the law points at sin in ALL people, not just Jews/Hebrews.

You're contradicting yourself by your agreement above.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote:
I didn't say that we must observe the Sabbath to know we are sinners...! How have you gotten that from what I've been saying?

I apologize.

Before we address anything else, please tell me why we as believers under the new covenant, must observe the sabbath. This may help me understand where you're coming from.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 2:38 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
I didn't say that we must observe the Sabbath to know we are sinners...! How have you gotten that from what I've been saying?

I apologize.

Before we address anything else, please tell me why we as believers under the new covenant, must observe the sabbath. This may help me understand where you're coming from.

Must? Again, I don't want my answer to be confused as to a point of legalism as we both agree that the law cannot save us. So then we know we are continual lawbreakers being sinners.

However, as I mentioned:

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Wed May 23, 2018 1:17 pm Let's see what Luke 22:20 says is the new covenant according to Christ Himself...

Luke22:20 wrote:In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is poured out for you.

See also 1 Corinthians 11:25

The old covenant was a covenant of blood of animals shed to signify the faith in the coming Messiah.

The new covenant, as Jesus plainly states, is the covenant of blood shed by the Messiah Himself.

So...what is the covenant that you're stating is the reason God can break His own law?

The old/new covenant have nothing to do with the Decalogue other than it points at sin, which then lays a curse on those that are lawbreakers...death. The covenant was/is about redemption, the curse of the law and that it was blood that afforded grace, shadowed by animal blood, shadowed by the Temple, the ceremonies...etc. and now the shadow made real or the new covenant in Christ's blood. The old covenant was the OT Ceremonial laws...those are the things that were a shadow to come...Christ.

The Law continues to point at sin... Romans 3:22-24

22This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Notice that the wording and context puts our sinfulness as present-continuous...not past.
.
.

This board's (independent?) moderator states that God's Laws are only applicable to Jews? Just OT Jews?
So this board's moderator says Christians are above God's Commandments and can safely ignore some of them?
I will continue to try to comply with all that The Father and His Son said in the Bible - not with this board's evil propaganda.

Hmm. How many strawmen can I spot?

You can follow the God that JW's believe in, and be judged according to the Law. Let's see how well you do on D-Day in having kept the Law.

As for me, I accept and believe Christ is God who took on human nature, nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross and imparts His righteousness to me, a righteousness that can't be earned but is had through faith, which allows me to pass from judgement and condemnation.

Is there any other hope?

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 5:00 pm Hmm. How many strawmen can I spot?

You can follow the God that JW's believe in, and be judged according to the Law. Let's see how well you do on D-Day in having kept the Law.

As for me, I accept and believe Christ is God who took on human nature, nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross and imparts His righteousness to me, a righteousness that can't be earned but is had through faith, which allows me to pass from judgement and condemnation.

Is there any other hope?

K, if you don’t mind, would you please point me to the text that states that the requirements of the Law are/were nailed to the cross...plz.
.
.

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 6:07 pm

Kurieuo wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 5:00 pm Hmm. How many strawmen can I spot?

You can follow the God that JW's believe in, and be judged according to the Law. Let's see how well you do on D-Day in having kept the Law.

As for me, I accept and believe Christ is God who took on human nature, nailed the requirements of the Law to the cross and imparts His righteousness to me, a righteousness that can't be earned but is had through faith, which allows me to pass from judgement and condemnation.

Is there any other hope?

K, if you don’t mind, would you please point me to the text that states that the requirements of the Law are/were nailed to the cross...plz.
.
.

Weren't you recently arguing that Jesus as God didn't break the Sabbath, but rather fulfilled the requirements of the Law?
Who was nailed to the cross? So too the requirements of the Law, met in Jesus, were also nailed.

I'm perplexed that any Christian would baulk at this. This is the Gospel and why we hope in Christ, because if we're still under Law, then likewise only judgement and condemnation awaits us hereafter.

It seems to me strange that some preach in one breath we're forgiven, God won't punish us for our sin and we'll receive eternal life (thus, we call "being saved" since we pass from God's righteously deserved wrath). Yet then, in the next breath argue that we're still bound by the Law (either fully or in part).

In what way is Law still binding upon us, and to what end if we don't keep it? You know we can try to keep it, and we'll fail miserably. Martin Luther found this out the hard way. Until it dawned on Luther that such was why Jesus came, and our only hope really is if it is by grace through faith in Christ! If we're forgiven, and then saved, but then have to keep the Law again -- well, we'll just fail over and over again. So either, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the Law, which were then nailed to the cross, or we'll still end up facing God's eventual judgement and wrath hereafter. You can't have your feet in both camps. Or you can, but if you do, then we're all still going to be judged and condemned hereafter.

As for your earlier question re: Law and knowledge of sin, I asked you for clarification on what your point was and don't believe I received a response. That said, I'm happy to provide an answer now. Sure as heck, we know sin, and the Law will highlight it all the more, convict us and make us feel guilty as heck. The Law will help sin to beat us down and rot us from the inside out with guilt. We're not the cure for that however, Jesus is. Most certainly our keeping the Law isn't the cure.

Q: What happens to those who don't keep the Law after coming to Christ?
(which mind you, is every single one of us, right?)

Sorry, you asked merely for verses and I gave you reason. Lest anything think my reasoning is devoid of Scripture, read the following passages for yourself:

Colossians 2:13-14
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

Ephesians 2:14-15
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

And as for the Old Covenant/New Covenant theology:

Hebrews 7:11-12
11If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.

Hebrews 7:18-22
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
20And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: 'You are a priest forever.'” 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8:6-13
6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Galatians 2:19-21
"For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

BavarianWheels wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 12:30 pm

neo-x wrote: ↑Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 pm Only a jew knows sin from the law. The Christian knows it from Christ's teachings which at times goes against what the ot claims. Plus most of the decalouge Is straight forward common sense. Don't lie don't steal, etc etc, these ideas exist outside of the law as well, and any functioning society would have them.

Jesus was a Jew...do we not call ourselves "Christians?. Are we not grafted as Gentiles into the Jewish Vine?

The Law, the Decalogue IS A CHRIST teaching except "we" didn't know the God of Creation's human name when He presented it in STONE and then to be written on our hearts.

You're creating a very large contradiction in your theology.
.
.

We are crafted in Christ, the same way the jews are. The speciality lies in Christ, not in the Jewish people. We are not part of Jewishness. When God sees us as his children he doesn't see Jewish children. Both the jew and Pakistani become children of God.

The only contradiction I see is you saying that law is not required to gain salvation yet at the same time you make the argument the law applies to all because Jesus was Jewish? That by following Christ we get under the same law because he was a jew?

Jesus is the only way to God. Being a jew isn't. Paul's entire focus in the NT was to oppose Jews who wanted to introduce the law as mandatory in the church. He chastised Peter for it. Because the hypocrisy was indeed that he followed the law when he was with jews for appearance's sake but else he didn't because he didn't have to.

And you seem to be defending to keep the law just so you can have the sabbath justified.