Jesus was the angel Michael!

[voicingmaster]

What makes you think that he new earth will be only like a paradise? Why can't it a BE A paradise? The only "like" used is like heaven. Heaven is just God's kingdom. Also, the Lord's prayer goes "Let it be on earth as it is on heaven" meaning let the earth as it is in heaven, as in a pradise.

It can't be a paradise because it makes more sense for it to be "like" paradise, since that's what it says.

Where does it say it's LIKE a paradise?

[Mastermind]

You said it, so don't ask me.

[ochotseat]

my jw friend firmly believes that Jesus was the angel Michael before coming to earth to save us. he doesn't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. i've almost given up on convincing him of that. i throw a passage at him that confirms it, and he throws one back that seems to disconfirm it.

but, is there anything i can show this guy to knock this idea out of his head!...that Jesus was an angel created by God!

Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus Christ is divine, but he's unequal to God or Jehovah as they call him. This goes against what Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians believe in (Trinity). J.W.'s also have some abstruse practices, which is why many Christians brand them pagans.

The new testament is irrelevant as far as the jews are concerned.

That's true. Jews consider Jesus to be a human teacher, and Muslims consider him a messenger of God but not God. Messianic Judaism is growing fast. Jews may be the holy people (as well as Christians), but Revelation says that most of them will be annihilated in the Apocalypse and only then will the survivors finally accept the Savior after milleniums of denial.

[Silvertusk]

Wow. This has been a very good thread. Both Mastermind and Voicingmaster have raised some very good points.

I know i am late in this game but if you will indulge me - these are my two pence worth.

The way I look at the Trinity is this. God is a being that exists outside of time (I believe this is mentioned in the Bible) Therefore he able to see the timeline (i.e. our universe and us) from all angles - or more accurately from start to finish. He is obviously interested in us being with him eventually in his realm and he loves his creation so much but he sees that we have gotten the message wrong. We need to be saved. God therefore pays us a visit in our timeline.

Now because God the Father is still outside of time he is able to see himself do this in the timeline (God the Son). There are now effectively two of him - but they are the same person. It is like in Back To the Future when Marty sees himself in the past (still the same person).

What must be stressed in this incarnation into human form is that God does indeed limit himself completely. He becomes fully human - the full package with all the weaknesses included. This is first sacrifice and humilation if you were, that God makes for us as he loves us so much.

At this point Jesus (God in Human form) has no power. And if you read the bible - you will see that Jesus performs no miracles until after he is given Power via the Holy Spirit from God The Father during his baptism with John.

The Devil - who knows the limitations of humans thinks he might now have a chance with God because he is in Human form. So he tries to tempt him. This to me shows me even more the absolute power of God and his resolve - because even in his almost infinitely limited state he still beats Satan. All of this is just for love of us. This humbleness in its purest form.

Jesus then goes on to perform his miracles because he is now filled with the Holy Spirit of God the Father. Essentially it is Jesus's own power and authority that he does these things but it is given to him by his true incarnation as the Father outside of time because without that Jesus is just human. Hence everything he says in John is true. He and the Father are one. The Father is greater than I etc....

Jesus then goes to the cross - the second humilation and again an incredible statement of his love for us. The Holy Spirit (Power of God) raises him from the dead. Essentially God the Father raises himself from death because God the Father is outside of time (this here is the key concept).

Jesus - before he returns to the realm of his Father suffers his final third humiliation by giving us stupid mortals the power of the Holy Spirit and allowing us to be witnessess for his almighty presence. Even if we do not have faith in him at times - he certainly has a great deal in us. It is humilty at its finest.

That is how I am able to explain the Trinity. There is only one God. But it is our views of God in different states that gives us the three persons - because in each state God is slightly different - although still the same person. God the Father - The Almighty Spirit outside of time. God the Son - The Father in Human form in our time. The Holy Spirit - The power of God that feels like a presence in its own right.

So when John said that Jesus was in the beginning - he was right. When he said that Jesus created everything - he was right. When John said Jesus was the Word made flesh - he was right. When he said that Jesus said that the Father and I are one - he was right. When John said that Jesus said that The Father is greater than I - he was right.

It all seems perfectly logical to me.

[entity]

Ask your JW friend what he believes Colossians 2:9-10 means.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. (NIV)

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; (NASB)

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (KJV)

9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (NKJV)

9 for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, 10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power: (ASV)

And lastly… The New World Translation, the JW”s very own bible...

9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. 10 And so YOU are possessed of a fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority. (NWT)

Notice how the JW's change Deity or Godhead to "divine quality" to fit their theology?

Maybe someone here could do a word study of these words to see if Deity or Godhead could have meant "divine quality".

[Mastermind]

Maybe JWs can explain to me how Jesus can have a beginning when John 1:3 clearly states He does not.

[ochotseat]

Maybe JWs can explain to me how Jesus can have a beginning when John 1:3 clearly states He does not.

Maybe the John 1:3 in their Bible says something different.

[Mastermind]

Maybe JWs can explain to me how Jesus can have a beginning when John 1:3 clearly states He does not.

Maybe the John 1:3 in their Bible says something different.

It doesn't, that's why it's so effective.

[ochotseat]

It doesn't, that's why it's so effective.

Do you or anyone else here have a copy of the JW Bible? If so, what differences have you noticed?

[Mastermind]

It doesn't, that's why it's so effective.

Do you or anyone else here have a copy of the JW Bible? If so, what differences have you noticed?

I don't have a copy of it but I do know that they changed John 1:1 to say something like

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was A god

instead of

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Which is just fine with me because I can accuse them of polytheism. [/b]

[puritan lad]

A little food for thought on this subject...

The heresy of JW's results from their denial of the diety of Christ. That said, consider the following about Michael vs. Jesus.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree, but many protestant Christians (such as Calvin) have historically held that Michael was not an angel, but was a theophany of Jesus Christ. The name "Micha-el" literally means "who is like God" and the title "archangel" means "ruler of angels". The name Michael occurs else where in the Scriptures only in Daniel and Jude. Michael is portrayed in Daniel as "the great Prince" who stands as the special Protector of the people of God. War breaks out in heaven between the good and evil angels, and even Gabriel is unable to overcome the demons until Michael comes to do battle with the enemy (Dan. 10:12-13, 20-21). In view of what is revealed about Michael in the latter part of Daniel 10, it is likely that the other wise unexplained vision in the first part of the chapter refers to Him as well: Daniel saw a man

"dressed in linen, whose waist was girded with a belt of pure gold of Uphaz. His body also was like beryl, His face like lightning, His eyes were like flaming torches, His arms and feet like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of His words like the sound of a tumult." (Dan. 10:5-6)

The only other Biblical occurrence of the word Archangel is in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, where Christ descends in the Second Coming "with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel," or, better, "with a shout, with Archangelic Voice." The clear implication is that Christ Himself shouts with the Archangelic Voice.

No, Christ was not an angel, but the strong possibility remains that neither was Michael.

Also check out the war in heaven between Michael and the dragon (Rev. 12)

[ochotseat]

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree, but many protestant Christians (such as Calvin) have historically held that Michael was not an angel, but was a theophany of Jesus Christ.

Do you have any trusty proof of this?

[puritan lad]

Yes. See Calvin's Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.vii.i.html

[ochotseat]

Yes. See Calvin's Commentaries on the Book of the Prophet Daniel

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.vii.i.html

And here is what a trusted theologian on the 700 Club website says about Michael:

Since the Christian worships the triune God---God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit---all of whom are available to our intercession, what need we more? Indeed, though Michael is an angel of the highest order, he is still a finite creature. He ought not to be worshiped or invoked in prayer.

[puritan lad]

Indeed, though Michael is an angel of the highest order, he is still a finite creature. He ought not to be worshiped or invoked in prayer.

I'm not too concerned with what a "trusted" 700 club theologian says unless he can back it up with scripture. What scriptures did he give to suggest that " Michael is an angel of the highest order" and "he is still a finite creature"? Could be true? Many "trusted" theologians would disagree. Many "trusted" thelogians also preach nonsense. Sola Scriptura...