Evidence for God from Science

I must be different from every Catholic around me or something, because I don't worship the virgin mary and I don't worship the saints.

Most Roman Catholics don't. That doesn't change the fact that the RCC has official doctrines that encourage behavior that comes dangerously close. Also, have you ever seen the huge groups of people when something happens such as the image of Mary appearing on the side of a building(I saw this on the news once)? All the people who gather around, cry, pray, and try to touch the image. There may be a few there who are praying to God and blessing Him, but the majority there give the impression that they're worshipping the image itself. Catholics might defend their behavior by saying they aren't really worshipping the image, but Christians are supposed to be aware of how they appear to outsiders and not do anything that could prove a stumbling block.

There is a pretty important group of people that the RCC doctrines are a huge stumbling block for, and that would be Muslims. Many churches in Muslim occupied areas are Catholic, with the statues of Mary and other "saints" and everything. A lot of them won't accept Muslim converts for fear of persecution from the locals, but the ones that do let Muslims in often end up driving them away from Christianity because the statues make it seem like Christians worship many gods and idols. You can say "We don't worship the saints. We just honor them." all you want, but this doesn't change the fact that the Muslims are going to get the impression that Christianity is a religion of idolatry. Their own Quran already lists a few fallacies about the Christian religion -- why would we do anything to make their coming to a knowledge of the truth of Christianity harder than it already is???

So of course my personal take of Christian doctrine is that it should be simple, straight-forward, the way it's presented in the Bible, and should never include elements that can be confusing to newcomers, or that can give false impressions such as idol worship. As Christians, we need to be bold in our faith, but we must also be aware of how we appear to people outside and never do anything that could accidentally confuse them.

I don't care to pray to them or ask them for guidance. I pray to God and only God. Eventhough I am Catholic, I don't support baptism of infants, I never have, I never will. That is a doctrine in the Catholic church that I don't agree with.

I'm glad that you can take an honest look at Catholic doctrine and discover the ones that you don't agree with. There are many that I don't agree with. Praying to saints for intercession. Requiring priests to be single. Infant baptism. Transubstantiation. Ever having statues of Mary or other saints built(you can read about their life and respect them all you want, but when you start building statues of them you're on very shaky ground, and you're going to give a false impression of idolatry to anyone not as familiar with Catholic doctrine as you are -- read paragraph above on Muslims and Catholicism).

Who knows, maybe you're right about the Catholic church being this whore of the Bible, we won't know until His Coming. But frankly, I don't care,

I'm not sure we can't know before Christ comes again. It's a pretty slippery slope when you start claiming that certain things simply can't be known. To me, the prophecies are pretty clear, and it's clear what they fit. Even if it turns out the RCC isn't the Harlot, though, I'd caution you against ever doing the "I don't care" thing. We should are about Revelations prophecy, and we should be keeping an eye out for its fulfillment. It's in the Bible, and I believe that God put it in there for a reason. It's so important, in fact, that He actually promises blessings to everyone who reads that particular book.

I gave myself to Christ and I accepted Him as my Savior. I don't place my faith in the Catholic Church, I place my faith in Christ. As far as I can tell, I think I'm doing what I should be doing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't make that decision for you. You know my advice -- if you're really a Christian, flee. Of course, for all I know, you have been placed in your church for a reason. You can't change the RCC, as history has shown, but perhaps you are there to make a difference in the lives of a few select people.

Again, I'd urge you to take a really close examination of the RCC doctrines, and as yourself a few important questions. "Is this really what the Bible says on this issue?" "If I didn't know anything about Catholicism or Christianity, how would this look to me? Would it present an honest picture of what Christianity is about, or could I easily get the wrong impression and write off Christianity altogether?" Things like that.

Personally, I'd never advise anyone to remain in a church that had doctrines they don't agree with. My church is your basic straight-from-the-Bible Southern Baptist. I didn't go looking for a certain denomination when I decided to join a church after my salvation last July, but two things convinced me that this church was the right one for me.

First of all, I just loved the people. That's an important place to start because if you develop a love for each other then you can be honest and open even when you disagree on things.

Second of all, I read the list of our official church beliefs. It was less than a page long, hit on all the important Christian doctrines, and was straight from the Bible with no "iffy" stuff or weird interpretations. I agreed with all of it almost instinctively, and it held up under closer scrutiny of the Bible.

And yes, I could go through the entire list of our church doctrines with an outsider, such as a Muslim, or even invite him to my church, without fear that I'm going to give him the wrong impression of Christianity. Giving outsiders a clear and honest presentation of Christianity is very important to me.

Even if it turns out the RCC isn't the Harlot, though, I'd caution you against ever doing the "I don't care" thing.

I had to come back to clear this one up.

I didn't actually mean that I don't care about the truth and that I don't care about prophecy. I meant that I don't care about which denomination is better or which denomination can prove more than the other. Its one heaven, and one Lord. But I have been considering for a long period of time joining a different denomination or even a non denomination Christian church. Though I have enjoyed being part of the Catholic religion, not accepting many of the doctrines has made me feel like I shouldn't be in a religion I don't fully agree with. We'll see what happens.

Again, I want to sincerely apologize to LittleSheperd and to everyone else on this board that experienced my minor explosion.

No problem, really. I'm sorry I rubbed you the wrong way. Perhaps if I explained some of my background, it would make more sense why I'm so adamant and forthright on this issue.

As I've already mentioned, my mother grew up Catholic, and the stumbling blocks present in the RCC doctrines have proven too much for her to overcome over the years. While some Catholics do come to Christ in spite of the doctrines...well, my mom hasn't. Her beliefs not only get in the way of her coming to Christ, but they also get in the way of our being able to have serious theological discussions. When things turn to "What does the Bible say about this?" she gets all defensive and tries to explain her beliefs. And they are all beliefs held in official RCC doctrine.

Then, perhaps it would be interesting how I came across that website. It was shortly after having talked to my mom, and I was really concerned about her at the time and didn't know what to do. I mean, if Catholicism was just a Christian denomination, then why was it so difficult to talk to her about salvation and stuff?

Suddenly, I felt a strong desire to look for abandonware. You know, software that's been abandoned and put on the free market by its copyright holder. This is weird because I've never looked for abandonware before. Except for a couple programs like Winamp and AIM, I've never really looked for any software on the internet. So why the sudden strong desire to look for abandonware of all things? (By the way, I still haven't found any abandonware on the net, and the desire to do so has passed.)

So I went to the most obvious website address I could possibly thing of. Abandonware.com.

Long story short, when I saw the word "Cults" in the mail listing, I felt this great urge to click on it. The reading was pretty interesting, but then I got to the section on the Roman Catholic Church, and it was the first time I ever even thought of it being the Great Whore, much less had anyone tell me so bluntly that it was. After reading the info on that page, I then clicked the link for more in-depth stuff on the RCC and Revelations prophecy, and the way everything matched up was just mind-blowing.

Then what's really weird is that only a couple weeks after coming across this information, my Sunday School class watched a video of a pastor preaching on Revelations prophecy. One day he was speaking about Saddam Hussein, Desert Storm, and certain prophecies that had been fulfilled during his reign over Iraq. But another day...was all about the Great Harlot, Mystery Babylon, and all that. He presented a compelling case for the city of Rome being the city of Mystery Babylon, and went into detail into the Babylonian mother-child cult and the official origin of the Roman Catholic Church that ties it to Rome even to this day.

So yeah. One guy gets concerned for his mother, wonders what's making witnessing to someone who's beliefs are "basically Christian" so hard, and within a very short period of time gets the desire to look for something he's never even thought of looking for, leading him to a website detailing some shocking things about prophecy, the RCC, and then has a video presented in his Sunday School class that basically says the same thing.

So yeah, I basically just live with the knowledge that my mother is unsaved, and that it's going to be really hard to get through to her, and that there's a very real possibility of her going to hell. I've admitted a couple times already, but let me reiterate that I know that the doctrines of Catholicism don't prove too much of a stumbling block for everyone, and that many do come to Christ. But then I also have to live with the reality that these doctrines did prove too much of a stumbling block for my own mother, who for some reason can't reconcile her Catholic beliefs with basic Christian doctrines like salvation.

So yeah, it's become kind of personal I guess. The Bible commands us not to be a stumbling block to other people, and many of the RCC doctrines and practices seem to go against this command in every conceivable way. They've proven a stumbling block to my mother, who grew up in the Catholic church, and as I mentioned above they can be an even greater stumbling block still to outsiders such as Muslims.

My grandmother, who was been a great influence in my life, is the same way as your mom, LS. She gets mad the instant something opposes RCC teachings, and for the simple fact that it does. She doens't need to read her Bible, the RCC tells her all she needs to know! That's the way she views it. She's also very angry with Martin Luther for not upholding his vows as a Monk. I heard her say once that if he had just kept his vows none of this Protestant nonsense would've ever come up. But she's an awesome lady who inspires me and whom I love dearly.

And no, LS, your "coincidences" with how you learned the RCC is the Whore was not "weird"! It's God's guiding Hand! He was revealing this truth to you, (which I believe all the moreso because He obviously revealed it to you Himself,) and He wanted you to know that He was the one teaching you. I absolutely love it when God does things in such an obvious way! He's schooled me in this area, so I'm extra enthusiastic about your story with this. He's just so Good!!! He's so incredibly personal! There's just nothing as cool as He is. I just love Him.

Most Roman Catholics don't.

No true Catholic does.

That doesn't change the fact that the RCC has official doctrines that encourage behavior that comes dangerously close.

Interestingly, I've never seen a "dangerously close doctrine", there is
some paganistic dogma perhaps, but being familiar with Vatican II there is no doctrine.

Also, have you ever seen the huge groups of people when something happens such as the image of Mary appearing on the side of a building(I saw this on the news once)?

Don't confuse religious fervor with prostrative prayer or deification of an image. The latter is of course, scripturally forbidden. As a side note, spend
less time watching TV.

but Christians are supposed to be aware of how they appear to outsiders and not do anything that could prove a stumbling block.

Christians are to represent Christ. Social norms and deviance aside.

There is a pretty important group of people that the RCC doctrines are a huge stumbling block for, and that would be Muslims.

I have news for you, ANY Christianic teaching, doc trine or dogma is
an issue for Muslims. Not predicated on Catholic teaching, but predicated on islamic doctrine denying Christ as the son of God. On further examination you'll find that Christs's mother is considered a whore, Jesus was never crucified and 203 other direct contradictions with Christianic teachings.

Many churches in Muslim occupied areas are Catholic.

Only if that muslim ares is Dearborn, Michigan. In 99% of islamic countries, Christian teachings are not only not tolerated, they are in fact illegal and punishible by jail and if you're proslytezing...death.
I lived in the Middle East for 10 years, Iran, Saudi, Qatar, UAE.
Trust me, saints have little if anything to do with muslim reluctance.

As an example, Look at the Muslim Kaba, The Black Rock, The statues of Shaitan (satan) the ritual stoning of satan, the ritual circling of the kaba. Islamic life is nothing but ritual, centered around images or idols.

You can say "We don't worship the saints. We just honor them." all you want, but this doesn't change the fact that the Muslims are going to get the impression that Christianity is a religion of idolatry.

The same could be said of any form of Christianity. Ever seen a church without a Cross? A Bible? Communion?. If one is going to split hair, split it all the way, anything less is hypocricy.

Their own Quran already lists a few fallacies about the Christian religion -- why would we do anything to make their coming to a knowledge of the truth of Christianity harder than it already is???

You state this as if muslims are saying "oh, well this is obviously a fallacy"

I'm always amused at a situation where one veils one's own bias under the guise of something else. Muslim theology is so bereft of the basic tenents of christian thinking as to render it unrecognizable as a tenent of God.

So of course my personal take of Christian doctrine is that it should be simple, straight-forward, the way it's presented in the Bible,

The accept Christians for who they are. The biggest laugh I've gotten here is that someone decided that Christians didn't include Catholics.
The faith is the same, the belief is the same. So church Doctrine varies.
Big deal. There are those here, quite obviously, that view Catholics as the enemy. By doing that you're dividing God's house. Further, you're judging others...at the penalty of being judged. In case you haven't noticed, christianity is being assaulted. Christian persecution takes place in 36 countries and we're under threat here at home from the forces of islam that want the eradication of christians by the sword.

While you're all sitting here slapping Catholics about like you've some appointed position of judgement...you're losing the war against satan.

I was raised Pentecostal, became Catholic in my 20's and present quite a challenge for the church in my somewhat "charismatic" approach to Catholicism. But some basic things about my faith ring true. There is but one God, and his son Jesus Christ. One may only reach heaven through Christ Jesus and his redemption.

Everything after that is academic.

and should never include elements that can be confusing to newcomers, or that can give false impressions such as idol worship

.

Then get rid of that cross, islamists will tell you that you're worshiping
"a dead man on a stick".

As Christians, we need to be bold in our faith

Humble. Examples.

I'm glad that you can take an honest look at Catholic doctrine

Tis a shame that others don't. Doctrine is not faith.

Who knows, maybe you're right about the Catholic church being this whore of the Bible, we won't know until His Coming. But frankly, I don't care,

The body of Christ is the Church, God's Church.
To refer to it as a whore is spitting in the face of God.

"...gathered in my name...I am there"

When I first started reading this thread I saw some specific ignorance
about particular elements of Catholicism.

Now I think I misread it, it really was just a slam and an insult to another
of God's people.

Forshame.

Noel wrote:There is but one God, and his son Jesus Christ. One may only reach heaven through Christ Jesus and his redemption.

Everything after that is academic.

I have to agree with that. But honestly, would the vast majority of your Catholic brethren agree with that?

I have to agree with that. But honestly, would the vast majority of your Catholic brethren agree with that?

Absolutely. And for the record, my brethern are all those who are brothers in Christ. Catholicism is a doctrine.

I'm amazed to see that there are people that view Catholics as polytheistic. Where does that notion come from? It's muslims that believe
the christian trinity is "God, Jesus and Mary" (Sura 5:116). But then, they also believe that Mary was the sister of Aaron, that Mary was also Mary Magdalene and that Jesus lived out his life as a gardener. Go figure.

The trinity doctrine clearly states the Triune Divinity of God, the Son and The Holy Spirit. Nothing and no one else.

Ask yourself this: Have you ever asked for anyone to pray for you? Have you ever prayed for anyone else? That's intercessory prayer. Mary is revered in the Catholic church, as the mother of Christ...not as his equal.
Some Catholics pray to Mary, not as a deity, but as an intercessor.

Ever read a Catholic Bible? The only difference is that it includes the Apocrypha, as we believe that all these documents are relevant to history and understanding.

There is absolutely no Catholic belief that deifies Mary or any other saint, they're people, special people...but people none the less.

I have to laugh sometimes at people that say "ohh you Catholics are communists or you're cannibals" or some nonsense like that. The preacher
at the Pentecostal Church I attended as a kid told me a few years ago that he was so disappointed in me..that Catholics "were communist idol worshippers that engaged in satanic rituals and would go to hell".

My response was that if I went to hell for being a Catholic as opposed to being saved for my love of god, my belief in Christ and my witness to his life...that at least there would be one person there that I would know, him, since bearers of false witness don't rate very high with God either...

Christs life wasn't dedicated to pointing out the flaws in others, looking for their weaknesses...or judging them. Christ held counsel with whores as easily as he did with kings. Love God, love yourselves as you love god.
I find that those who sit in judgement of others and their ways...miss the fundamental issue of Christianity. To be Christ-like.

That is the very reason that I left my fundamentalist background and embraced Catholicism. I found a place where people loved God, loved a life of service to God and accepted all others, no matter what their faith.

If you get the basic tenent right...the rest is a piece of cake.

Interestingly, I've never seen a "dangerously close doctrine", there is
some paganistic dogma perhaps, but being familiar with Vatican II there is no doctrine.

You can split hairs over proper word usage all you want, but the facts remain the same. Catholicism has teachings(doctrines, dogmas, whatever word you want to use) that are simply not Christian. They have no Biblical basis, and a few of them are borderline(if not outright) idolatry.

Don't confuse religious fervor with prostrative prayer or deification of an image. The latter is of course, scripturally forbidden. As a side note, spend less time watching TV.

The people involved were going quite a ways beyond "religious fervor." And yes, some of them were laying prostrate at the foot of the image. What they were doing was wrong, and the image they were portraying to the world watching was that Christianity is a religion of idolatry.

Christians are to represent Christ. Social norms and deviance aside.

Yes, but that never includes being deceitful or misleading. The Bible is not a stumbling block because it's common sense that the Word has to be passed around somehow, and that writing it in a book is the most convenient way possible. The cross is also not a stumbling block(not even to Muslims) because their own book -- the Quran -- tells them enough for them to know what the cross means to Christians. And upon visiting a church, they would see quite clearly that the cross is decoration, and that nobody is bowing down to it, or running around it, or throwing rocks at it, or anything of the sort.

Statues of saints, however, pose a huge problem. Muslims hold fast that they are not bowing to idols when they circle the Kaba, and that they only worship one God(in this way, they are much like Catholicism). When they visit a Catholic church, with its statues, they'll notice a few things. These statues often get a lot of attention, many to the point that their feet are worn down from years of rubbing and kissing. They also already have the false idea that the trinity of Christianity is father, mother, and son. Statues of(and prayers to) Mary would do nothing but confirm the things they already believe.

I have news for you, ANY Christianic teaching, doc trine or dogma is an issue for Muslims.

This is well known. And I reiterate that if Christianity is already so difficult for Muslims to accept, then why should we go out of our way to add layers of unbiblical teachings and practices that would make it even <B>more</B> difficult than it already is? Just because it is already difficult does not excuse the RCC for making it even moreso.

In 99% of islamic countries, Christian teachings are not only not tolerated, they are in fact illegal and punishible by jail and if you're proslytezing...death.

Your numbers are a little bit off. Yes, many Islamic countries are not very tolerant of Christianity, but the actual numbers of Christians residing in such countries would surprise you(Iraq alone boasts over 100,000, and that's only the ones we know of). Also, some of the more "progressive" of the Islamic countries, such as Egypt, have many churches. They mostly leave these churches alone as long as they only serve foreigners, but act disfavorably(sometimes violently) against them if they serve any resident converts.

Muslim theology is so bereft of the basic tenents of christian thinking as to render it unrecognizable as a tenent of God.

Yes, we've already established this, and that it's no excuse.

Further, you're judging others...at the penalty of being judged.

No, no I'm not. Judgment and discernment are two very different things. Christians are not to practice the former, but we are most definitely to practice the latter. Basic discernment regarding Catholic teachings shows clearly that Catholicism is not Christianity.

Humble. Examples.

Humility does not exclude boldness. Jesus was humble, yet bold. Paul was humble, yet bold. They were both great examples, showing that humility and boldness can, and often do, go hand in hand. Humility is also not an excuse not to tell the plain truth.

The body of Christ is the Church, God's Church.
To refer to it as a whore is spitting in the face of God.

I agree, but we are not talking about the Body of Christ. We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church. As far as I can tell, they are two wholly separate entities with similarities that are merely superficial.

Noel wrote:I'm amazed to see that there are people that view Catholics as polytheistic. Where does that notion come from?

For the record my problem with Catholicism has never been that some perceive it as polytheistic (which I don't). My problem with it is my impression that it supports and perpetuates a 'saved by works' doctrine that is fundamentally contrary to Protestant Christian principles. Now, by your earlier statement that I agreed with and by your assertion that other Catholic belivers are of like mind, you are basically claiming that my perception was incorrect. Which is fine because I admit I'm fairly ignorant about Catholicism, but then you'll have to explain a bit about some of the things that led me to that perception:

1) The Protestant Reformation begun by Martin Luther was all about Luther denying the principle that the church must act as an intermediary between ourselves and God - Luther understood that everyone can have a personal relationship with God. Being saved because I've repented of my sins and am forgiven by Jesus is different than salvation because I've been forgiven by a priest. What is it with priests forgiving people? Only Jesus forgives.

2) The Bible clearly states that we are to be baptized upon truly believing in Jesus. What's the deal with infant baptism? I get the feeling that a lot of 'non practicing Catholics' do it 'just in case', with the understanding that this has the potential to save. Why does the church perpetuate this notion?

3) The last main one for me is the whole concept of working to have sin forgiven. (Like 50 hail Mary's or whatever). I don't even know what it's called, but it's nonetheless heresy. We are forgiven by grace, NOT by our own actions.

So from the above 3 observations (and many others), my perception is that the RCC perpetuates a 'works saves' doctrine that is contradictory to the Gospel of Christ. I have the same problem with the RCC that Luther did, and feel that even though some within the church ARE saved (you, for instance) many are NOT saved, and are misled by incorrect teachings about salvation.

I am open to correction if I have stated incorrect facts.

Thank you, you made my somewhat veiled point.

You can split hairs over proper word usage all you want, but the facts remain the same. Catholicism has teachings(doctrines, dogmas, whatever word you want to use) that are simply not Christian. They have no Biblical basis, and a few of them are borderline(if not outright) idolatry.

I have not a single hair split. What I have done is take the "figuratively lumped" and set it aside for the "literal". Since I know of none of these heathenistic teachings, I'm certain that you would gladly provide me with them?

The people involved were going quite a ways beyond "religious fervor."

As defined by you. As I recall, in the presence of Christ many were silent, some wept, some danced and laughed. I believe that the expressing of emotion over the viewing of such an object, is natural. How you personally view it, does not define what it is. I'm certain that if you asked one of the faithful if that "banana shaped like the Virgin" was God, they'd say no. Is it Jesus? again no. Do you pray to it? again no.

What they were doing was wrong, and the image they were portraying to the world watching was that Christianity is a religion of idolatry.

Wrong? By whose standards, yours? I thik you have a personal issue here not a Christianic one. Last time I checked, there were something like 1.4 billion Catholics in a world of 6 billion people. There are 270 million Americans...less than 5% of the world's population. IT's just a fact that "not everyone sees the world the way we do". (we, being Americans)

I would add a note to that statement, 55 muslims martyred themselves last year because a fish was caught in the Red Sea that allegedly had "allah" written on it in arabic. A sign of end time.

Yes, but that never includes being deceitful or misleading.

Your reference here eludes me.

The Bible is not a stumbling block because it's common sense that the Word has to be passed around somehow, and that writing it in a book is the most convenient way possible.

I agree although I fail to see the specific relevance.

The cross is also not a stumbling block(not even to Muslims) because their own book -- the Quran -- tells them enough for them to know what the cross means to Christians.

And here is where the water parts. I disagree 100%. Having lived among muslims for a decade, and owning many well worn Qurans that I have researched thoroughly, I can tell you with all confidence that Muslims view the cross as an Idol. period. quote "worship of a dead man on a stick" - Imam Al Sistani, 2005.

Their Quran tells them that the cross has no significance as christ (accoording to islam) did not die on the cross, but was replaced on it by Juda (yes the same Judas that betrayed Christ and then hung himself).
I don't mean to seem condescending here, but my guess is you've had that "islam is peace and we believe in the same god" line blown right up your skirt and you fell for it. Sorry, that dog don't hunt here. And yes, I have the chops to back that up, in Spades.

And upon visiting a church, they would see quite clearly that the cross is decoration, and that nobody is bowing down to it, or running around it, or throwing rocks at it, or anything of the sort.

Fundamental error. Muslims don't enter churches, it's apostasy and makes them subject to "honor killing". So that point is a bit moot. It does not detract from a very simple fact. Catholics do not engage in idol worship any more than "regular, normal...your kind of christian" does.
To transmit otherwise is foolishness, deception and frankly, just silly.

Statues of saints, however, pose a huge problem.

For whom, you? A Muslim would rather gouge out his eyes and eat them than step foot in a Catholic church. For the uninitiated, the only thing a muslim fears more than Allah and Shaitan...is a fearless Catholic. It all goes back to the illuminati...and it's a long boring story.

Muslims hold fast that they are not bowing to idols when they circle the Kaba,

Oh, so... Catholics revering mary is idol worship, but muslims circling the Kaba 7 times, then throwing stones at Shaitan 7 times...then kissing the black rock isn't?

What's wrong with this picture?

and that they only worship one God(in this way, they are much like Catholicism).

To put your logic to it, they're much like 100% of Christianity.
The devil lies in the details. Allah, is Al-ilah, The God, one of 360 Gods of the ancient arabs. Not the god of Abraham. A Pagan god.
Next, Mohammad replaces Christ as the last prophet of God, and Christ takes a serious backseat to this whole business.

In THAT way, islam is NOTHING like Catholicism. To equate the two only furthers the impression that you have a personal issue with Catholics.

When they visit a Catholic church, with its statues, they'll notice a few things. These statues often get a lot of attention, many to the point that their feet are worn down from years of rubbing and kissing. They also already have the false idea that the trinity of Christianity is father, mother, and son. Statues of(and prayers to) Mary would do nothing but confirm the things they already believe.

They don't visit. In 30 years, on 5 continents and dozens of Catholic churches, I have never seen a statue kissed, touched, rubbed, fondled, or prayed to. Not once.

Secondly, Im just a bit disturbed at this preoccupation with how muslims
feel when entering a church. Their false trinity is their issue, not Catholicism any more than Baptists or any other branch. I think you miss the issue that trinitarianism is a totally rejected concept. Doesn't matter if you think it's Porky, Daffy and Buggs, they don't buy it. Period.

And I reiterate that if Christianity is already so difficult for Muslims to accept, then why should we go out of our way to add layers of unbiblical teachings and practices that would make it even<B>more</B> difficult than it already is?

I keep getting this overwhelming feeling of 2 things.
1. You have some unresolved issues about the Catholic Church.
2. You apparently hold Catholics responsible for muslims not converting due to the blatant paganist practices (as you percieve it).

Less division, more decision. I'm all for simpifying things. I suspect that if one were to look at "the big picture" the muslims get far more mileage from "whizzing contests" among Christians, then they do out of saying "oh look! idols!"

Trust me on that one.

"Just because it is already difficult does not excuse the RCC for making it even moreso."

Ill let you take that up with Papa Benedict and his boys. WE are the body of Christ, all of us. Simple concept, simple execution. No need to make it hard for anyone.

Try and get over the robes and gold and pomposity of it all...and look at the message.

Your numbers are a little bit off.

Then correct me, I was only a citizen there.

(Iraq alone boasts over 100,000, and that's only the ones we know of).

Funny when I was there they only boasted "23,000" 90% of whom were in the northern Kurdistan territory. The rest of the christians lived there under cover as to their religion.

Also, some of the more "progressive" of the Islamic countries, such as Egypt, have many churches.

Yes, the muslims only burned down 6 of the Coptic Christian churches last year. That's down from 11 the year before. At last count, only 94 christians had been martyred in Egypt this year. A sizeable decrease from 235 this time last year. Thank God for small miracles.

They mostly leave these churches alone as long as they only serve foreigners, but act disfavorably(sometimes violently) against them if they serve any resident converts.

Like the Church of the Nativity, machine gunned, burned out, defecated in, bibles destroyed and desecrated, ets etc ad nauseaum.

Sorry, I'm not tuned in to the rosy picture, perhaps because I had boots on the ground in 33 different islamic countries...and I know what Shinola is.

No, no I'm not. Judgment and discernment are two very different things

.

Splitting hairs?

Christians are not to practice the former, but we are most definitely to practice the latter.

Ah yes. Physician heal thyself.

Basic discernment regarding Catholic teachings shows clearly that Catholicism is not Christianity.

You're kidding right? I think your discernment skills need a refresher and your judgement skills need tweaking as well. I'm very very interested though in why I'm not a Christian.

Do tell.

Humility does not exclude boldness. Jesus was humble, yet bold. Paul was humble, yet bold. They were both great examples, showing that humility and boldness can, and often do, go hand in hand. Humility is also not an excuse not to tell the plain truth.

What I said was meant to convey "Practicing Humility and Being Examples". But now that you mention it. Paul was responsible for the formation of the Church. (yes that non christian catholic abomination that you're so enamoured with)

Humility and boldness can go hand in hand...if that boldness doesn't lend itself to making one appear as the north end of a southboubd mare.

I still think it's a personal issue.

I agree, but we are not talking about the Body of Christ. We are talking about the Roman Catholic Church. As far as I can tell, they are two wholly separate entities with similarities that are merely superficial

.

I'll state again that we are all the Body of Christ, while I understand that you have a personal issue with Catholicism, don't let that jeapordize your life with Christ by bearing false witness.

So far I've seen no supportive ecidence to tell me that as a Catholic, that I am not Christian. By supportive I refer to this mystic church doctrine and dogma that apparently I wasn't privilige to whenever I sold my soul as you would see it.

Unhappily, I must revert to my earlier position. I believe this is a one man crusade against Catholics. If that fits your needs, so be it...but when a man doesn't recognize a brother, while the enemy sleeps on his doorstep, that man is doomed.

I do hope that Christ touches your life and enables you to see all things.

Noel

My problem with it is my impression that it supports and perpetuates a 'saved by works' doctrine that is fundamentally contrary to Protestant Christian principles.

Saved by works is outdated and misunderstood. There is no salvation through works, only through Christ. End of story on that one.

1) The Protestant Reformation begun by Martin Luther was all about Luther denying the principle that the church must act as an intermediary between ourselves and God - Luther understood that everyone can have a personal relationship with God. Being saved because I've repented of my sins and am forgiven by Jesus is different than salvation because I've been forgiven by a priest. What is it with priests forgiving people? Only Jesus forgives.

I agree with your assertion and support it 100%. Priests "grant absolution" for the confession, ritual cleansing, but the forgiveness can only be had, or asked for, in prayer. Jesus Christ is the one that forgives.
The whole confession thing goes to a papal edict that required men to bear witness to their sins. Not only to god, but to a "person" with the
assumption being that it was a person of the clergy.

To be honest...I don't know a person walking that has been to confession in 20 years. In practice, it's a good thing in that it keeps you conscious of your sins. The downside is that it looks like Priests are handing out forgiveness, which they're not. They're listening, providing spiritual counsel and sending yuo on your way.

2) The Bible clearly states that we are to be baptized upon truly believing in Jesus. What's the deal with infant baptism? I get the feeling that a lot of 'non practicing Catholics' do it 'just in case', with the understanding that this has the potential to save. Why does the church perpetuate this notion?

Infant baptism is ritualistic again. Emulation the immersion of Christ by John the Baptist. Babies are innocent in Christ. Church Doctrine carries this one...in that they're required to be baptized to be "confirmed" in the Church. Otherwise they'd have to attend a catechism or training later on.

3) The last main one for me is the whole concept of working to have sin forgiven. (Like 50 hail Mary's or whatever). I don't even know what it's called, but it's nonetheless heresy. We are forgiven by grace, NOT by our own actions.

Absolutely agreed 100%. There again, it's ritualistic "penance". The principle of Grace applies here, in that it is how we are forgiven. THe "50 hail mary's" are a penance, a church penalty to keep you reminded of that sin and the cost it has on your soul. Again, forgiveness is only through Christ.

I have the same problem with the RCC that Luther did, and feel that even though some within the church ARE saved (you, for instance) many are NOT saved, and are misled by incorrect teachings about salvation.

The church now is very very different from Luther's time...but in many many ways needs reform on some issues. It doesn't happen overnight.
But the fundamental issues, if you seek out church doctrine are the same. Love of God, Love of Christ and salvation through him. I don't agree with all Catholic Doctrine...but it doesn't keep me from loving God, sharing his love and following his plan for my life. God is in our hearts, not a book, in our lives, not a set of mans rules.

Hope this helps,

Noel


I am open to correction if I have stated incorrect facts.[/quote]

Noel: I think most of your views are doctrinally correct, whether they agree with mainstream Catholic teaching or not. In fact, they are similar in some ways to the positions of the Evangelical Covenant Church denomination my church is a part of. In the Evangelical Covenant Church, there are the core doctrines such as salvation by faith, the inerrancy of Scripture, and the like. These are not up to question. Then there are the peripheral doctrines such as baptism. The ECC does not take a position on these issues. If a parent in my church wants an infant baptized, there is no problem. If an adult wishes to be baptized, again no problem.

Thus I would call it "flexible". However, "liberal" would be a clear mislabeling.

I believe that anyone who believes in Jesus Christ can be saved, regardless of whether this person is Catholic, evangelical, fundamentalist or what not. I might disagree with some beliefs on non-core issues, but I wouldn't consider this a salvation thing.

However, I think your views on judging are a little off. We are called to rebuke in love. Not all recognition of sin is judging. In fact, we can live healthier lives if we allow others to show us where we have messed up. Everyone struggles with sin, and ignoring it or leaving it as a "personal" matter is a dangerous way to deal with it. (BTW, this whole paragraph falls into the "not a salvation issue" category.)

What I have done is take the "figuratively lumped" and set it aside for the "literal". Since I know of none of these heathenistic teachings, I'm certain that you would gladly provide me with them?

Again, I will point out this little web page.
http://abandonware.com/Documents/Church_Desk/Cults.htm

If you scroll down to the Roman Catholic Church section, you will see a few different heathenistic practices. Cathlics often use Bible verses to claim that "holy tradition" is as important as holy scripture, but they often leave out one important fact. None of the RCC traditions were practiced by the early Christian church when the epistle claiming that church traditions were good was penned. An important question to ask is "What traditions is this talking about?" Since the RCC didn't even exist until the early 300s, it's safe to say the answer is "None of the traditions established by the RCC." They are, therefore, heretical.

As defined by you. As I recall, in the presence of Christ many were silent, some wept, some danced and laughed. I believe that the expressing of emotion over the viewing of such an object, is natural.

We're talking about how people were reacting to an <B>idol,</B> which can hardly be compared to how people react around <B>Christ Himself.</B> Christ is not an idol -- He is God Himself; ergo dancing, weeping, and falling prostrate before him would not be idolatry. An image on the side of a building(or other such place) of Mary, on the other hand, is not God, and falling prostrate before it and crying and the such is idolatry.

Your reference here eludes me.

I'm saying that Catholicism appears idolatrous to many people not familiar with its teachings. Many people associate Catholicism with Christianity -- ergo it is often deceitful and misleading. Even knowing the explanations behind their teachings, however, I must state that it still looks borderline idolatrous to me. I've yet to see an explanation that does not contradict the Bible, ergo failing to convince me otherwise.

Wrong? By whose standards, yours?

No. By God's standard as set forth in the second commandment(the last half of the first in Catholicism, I believe). They were bowing down before a graven image -- their intent means nothing at this point. The best intention(to praise God) cannot make a wrong action(outright disobedience) okay. It doesn't work like that.

I agree although I fail to see the specific relevance.

You mentioned the Bible in your list of items of things that Muslims might consider "idols" in Christianity. Therein lies the relevance.

And here is where the water parts. I disagree 100%. Having lived among muslims for a decade, and owning many well worn Qurans that I have researched thoroughly, I can tell you with all confidence that Muslims view the cross as an Idol. period. quote "worship of a dead man on a stick" - Imam Al Sistani, 2005.

And here you contradict yourself. You say they view the cross itself as an idol, which they very well may -- that doesn't change the fact that their Quran makes it clear that Christians believe Jesus died on a cross, therefore making it possible for them to see its significance to us. You next statement makes you contradiction quite clear -- "worship of <B>a dead man</B> on a stick." Note the wording -- worship of the <B>man,</B> not the stick itself.

Their Quran tells them that the cross has no significance as christ (accoording to islam) did not die on the cross, but was replaced on it by Juda (yes the same Judas that betrayed Christ and then hung himself).

And again, this very statement, while it contradicts Christianity, makes it clear to the Muslims that Christians believe otherwise. Ergo, it actually <B>helps</B> them to understand what the cross means to us, rather than hinders. They know what it means to us; they just believe otherwise.

I don't mean to seem condescending here, but my guess is you've had that "islam is peace and we believe in the same god" line blown right up your skirt and you fell for it. Sorry, that dog don't hunt here. And yes, I have the chops to back that up, in Spades.

Oh, wow. Now I'm the one having trouble laughing. If you thought for even an instant that I thought Islam was some "religion of peace," or that they were worshipping the same God...yeah, right. You totally misread that one.

Fundamental error. Muslims don't enter churches

Not as a rule, no. But the number of Muslim-to-Christian converts tell a different story. Most of them enter a church at one time or another, and doubtless there are others who enter the church seeking, but don't end up converting. I know it's not common, but it does happen. I got this information from Muslim-to-Christian converts themselves. Not someone who lived in their presence. Not someone who visited churches in their area. <B>The very people who entered the church and converted to Christianity themselves.</B>

Catholics do not engage in idol worship any more than "regular, normal...your kind of christian" does. To transmit otherwise is foolishness, deception and frankly, just silly.

Yes, I already said that. I'm glad you got it.

Oh, so... Catholics revering mary is idol worship, but muslims circling the Kaba 7 times, then throwing stones at Shaitan 7 times...then kissing the black rock isn't?

What's wrong with this picture?

What's wrong with this picture is that you broke a single sentence into two separate parts, each of which lost all meaning without the other, and then proceeded to comment on them individually, ignoring that they were both parts of the same sentence. Ergo, instead of one message that I <B>did</B> say, you ended up with two messages that I did <B>not</B> say.

To put your logic to it, they're much like 100% of Christianity.

And here is the comment made to the second half of the sentence in question. I in no way said that Muslims did not practice idolatry, and I also in no way said that they held to the belief in one god without idolatry. What I said, if you put both parts of the sentence together, is that Muslims are much like Catholics in this one respect -- they both have practices that can easily be seen as idolatry, yet both will deny that it is so and that they are only serving one god and that what they are doing is merely ritual that's not <I>really</I> idolatry.

You have some unresolved issues about the Catholic Church.

Issues, yes. Unresolved, no. God saw to reveal the truth to me, I've compared my findings to the Bible itself and saw that they fit, and my course is clear.

You apparently hold Catholics responsible for muslims not converting due to the blatant paganist practices (as you percieve it).

Completely, no. In part, yes. Muslims already have wrong beliefs about Christianity from what's mentioned in their Qu'ran. Catholicism just further complicates things. Adds yet more hurdles to overcome.

Funny when I was there they only boasted "23,000" 90% of whom were in the northern Kurdistan territory. The rest of the christians lived there under cover as to their religion.

We were both wrong on this one. The number is closer to 800,000 professing Christians. They're still a small minority compared to the millions and millions of Muslims, but the numbers are much more hopeful than even I expected.
http://www.aina.org/news/20040930115327.htm

Yes, the muslims only burned down 6 of the Coptic Christian churches last year. That's down from 11 the year before. At last count, only 94 christians had been martyred in Egypt this year. A sizeable decrease from 235 this time last year. Thank God for small miracles.

The churches have to be there first before they can be burned down, right? So my point that there are indeed many churches in Egypt holds true.

Like the Church of the Nativity, machine gunned, burned out, defecated in, bibles destroyed and desecrated, ets etc ad nauseaum.

For every church that's treated in such a way, how many are left alone for the most part? If 6 churches are burned down, that's still a pretty small percentage of the total number of churches in Egypt. It's still tragic, yes, but it's still a much better treatment overall than the churches get in most other Islamic countries.

Paul was responsible for the formation of the Church. (yes that non christian catholic abomination that you're so enamoured with)

Last I checked, Paul was long dead by the early 300s when the new Roman emperor formed the amalgam known as the RCC. It bore little resemblance to the "early church" of Paul and the other Apostles, and to this day the differences are still numerous.

I'll state again that we are all the Body of Christ, while I understand that you have a personal issue with Catholicism, don't let that jeapordize your life with Christ by bearing false witness.

What I'm saying matches up with history. What I'm saying also matches up with the Bible, specifically Revelations chapters 17 through 19. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and the prophecies of Revelations chapter 17 through 19 fit the Roman Catholic Church down to the smallest detail...I dare say I'm not the one bearing false witness here.

I do hope that Christ touches your life and enables you to see all things.

I pray the same for you.

Meh. I would jump into this debate, but you guys would probably run rings around me.

I'm Catholic, and I don't think our practices and doctrines are anti-Christ.
So, that's my two cents.

On a semi-related, and <B>very happy</B> note(something much needed in the midst of harsh debate), I have a really great announcement!

My mom said the strangest thing the other day to my dad(see one of my above posts relating to my mom for previous info). They were talking about, of all things, the Kroger Card and how you can save a good bit of money by buying Kroger brand stuff with it. And out of the blue my mom said "Maybe we can start shopping there. It's on the way back from church."

Yes, that's right -- <B>on the way back from church.</B>

My mom showed up for Mother's Day, being a special day and all. And then she showed up again last Sunday(when she later said the above to my dad). It seems that she enjoys our church, and the pastor's preaching, and plans on returning. From the sounds of it, regularly even!

It's more than I could have hoped for. My mom was really happy for me going to church, but was pretty adverse to going herself. I don't know what changed, but I'm not questioning it.