Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein, I would also recommend to check the links closer to the END of this thread since those links are the most recent and have the best chance of still being active. Plus, be sure to check out the links that bippy posted for you as well.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

Byblos wrote:FL, it is very clear you have not spent any time reading any of the material presented in this thread. I mean forget the iconic symbolism and all that. If the shroud is acutally authentic, and all indications are that it is, it would be proof positive not only for the death of Christ, but more importantly, compelling evidence for his resurrection. As a Christian surely you ought to take the subject a little more seriously. Or at a minimum refrain from making fun of those who do. But that's just me.

You are right, I haven't bothered to read the material presented in this thread, any more than I bother to read magazines on UFOs... Some things are self-evident: You don't have to be a meteorologist to see that the sky is cloudy. As for the Shroud being ''compelling evidence for his resurrection'' I doubt many non-believers would buy that. For those who would, fine. As I've said before, some people need the paraphernalia of religions: the ceremony, the candles, the holidays, the statues, the icons, the blessed garments/water/oil, the fancy buildings, the genuine shavings of Jesus' cross, the chants...some people need this stuff to solidify/focus/anchor their faith. I'm fine with that.

I don't take the Shroud seriously any more than I take Tongues seriously. Some people need this type of ''evidence'' and the reason probably has more to do with psychology than anything else. Sorry.

FL

Again to compare the shroud to ufo's and little green men from mars is ridiculous. The belief that the resurrection caused this image to happen can never be known from science because there will never be a resurrection to test it again. I believe that the resurrection caused this image through inference to the best explanation for that image that fits in with all the evidence, and since you haven't studied all the evidences for the shroud then how can you logically and reasonably compare the shroud to little green men from mars? It doesn't make sense unless u form that opinion based on seeking the truth of the shroud.

This is how your supposed to research the shroud
As Arthur Conan Doyle puts it
""Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.""

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:The speed of light in material is lower than the speed of light in vacuum. Until it hit the material the speed was greater.

OK, Thank you Dr. I had assumed that the sentence said that ''light was travelling faster than c, then slowed down as it entered the fiber, then dispersed.''

Now, in the large print below, where did these high-energy particles come from?

1over137 wrote:It is suggested that the image was formed when a high-energy particle struck the fiber and released radiation within the fiber at a speed greater that the local speed of light. Since the fiber acts as a light pipe, this energy moved out through the fiber until it encountered an optical discountinuity, then it slowed to the local speed of light and dispersed

And this odd youtube clip which may explain the above; what do you make of it?

bippy123 wrote:Ok guys this is a small but very important clip from the dvd the fabric of time and it talks aboutthe impossibility of no distortion on the image, and how its impossible for that to happen if The body of Jesus was lying on the tomb below his body. His body had to have been floating above the rock below him in between the shroud. Plus the image itself shows that the muscles of the body image shows that they werent crushed against the tomb . How could this be unless Jesus was floating in between the top and bottom of the shroud. Fascinating video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmCaindCpg

FL

Getting back to you when watching it and having some thought.

1over this is one of different theories on how the image was formed .
21st century science can't replicate this image , and the closest anyone has come was doctor August Accetta when he passed gamma radiation through his body . He came close in quite a few aspects of the u wife qualities of the image but he couldn't create a head and facial image and he couldn't duplicate the quality of the image on the shroud .

Doctor Accetta who was an agnostic at the time knew that no forger had the technology to create this image and he started reading the bible again and eventually cam whack to faith in God.
Here is a paper that doctor Accetta co authored with physicist john Jackson and one other person.
http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

NUCLEAR MEDICINE AND ITS RELEVANCE
TO THE SHROUD OF TURIN August D. Accetta MD, Kenneth Lyons MD, John Jackson PhD.
Hypothesis: If indeed a corpse created the image we see on the Shroud, then the source for the energy received by the cloth may be from the molecular bond energy and/or nuclear forces within the body in some way interacting with the cloth. The closest practical tool we have to study this today is nuclear medicine.
Keywords: STURP: Shroud of Turin Research Project, Tc-99m MDP: Technesium-99 metastable methylene diphosphate, V-P-8: Vertical projection photodensitometer.
Introduction: The Turin Shroud bears an image of an apparent crucified man, chemically the result of some dehydrative, oxidative, and subsequent carbonyl conjugative process of cellulose, the origin of which is heretofore enigmatic.1 Many properties of the Shroud are however under- stood quite well. For example, it is clearly understood through the work of STURP and others that the Shroud did in fact wrap someone at some point in time and that it is not the product of some medieval artist.2
The Shroud image suggests quite strongly the presence of many skeletal details e.g. carpal and metacarpal bones, some 22 teeth, eye sockets, left femur, left and possibly right thumbs flexed under the palms of the hands, as well as soft tissue and soft tissue injuries; all presumably originat- ing from some form of radiation emitted from the body enshrouded.3


No scientific human model has been satisfactorily utilized to offer elucidation of the origin of this quality an image. Many have postulated image formation theories e.g. Pellicori-Germans “latent image” and Jackson et al direct contact experiments which he concluded had quite negative results and have effectively been ruled out.4 Others have suggested diffusion.5 Schwalbe and Rojers however, failed in the properties not limited to sharpness and clarity of the image.6 Later researchers such as Giles Carter and Thaddeus Trenn have studied radiation biology in a theoreti- cal framework and have achieved promising results in terms of image superficiality and clarity.7

The human radiation model seems to offer the greatest application to the Shroud image thus far.

Accetta also talks about his gamma ray experiments in the paper as well .

I think you would like find this paper interesting 1over137

You are right Bippy, am interested from the physics point of view. Now gotta see the video first.

FL, video is too short to make something of it. I need real meat. Maybe reading papers here http://shrouduniversity.com/opticalsciences.php
Also I need to research counter-opinions from other scientists.
Only after that I can give my opinion. (Maybe in a year? )

1over137 wrote:FL, video is too short to make something of it. I need real meat. Maybe reading papers here http://shrouduniversity.com/opticalsciences.php
Also I need to research counter-opinions from other scientists.
Only after that I can give my opinion. (Maybe in a year? )

In one year, I could be dead! Anyway, I think Bippy's post on page 8 answered my question, specifically this link he provided:

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

I am reading every post and every link. I'm on page 8 of this topic so far and am waiting to see what will happen with the Ivellious character as this story unfolds. Did he eventually come to his senses? DON'T TELL ME! I want to find out on my own!

FL

I am reading every post and every link.

FL, glad to see that open mind in action! I will be interested to see your comments at various points along your trip through the thread. I was extremely skeptical first coming across this thread - especially with the history of faked relics and the perverse focus often surrounding them. In medieval times, I almost could see some guy with a trench coat opened to showcase various pieces of the cross and a few holy grails for sale. Initially seeing Gary Habermas, one of the world's most-knowledgeable experts on the Resurrection, kind of perked me up - especially after reading so much of the science Bippy tipped us to.

1over137 wrote:FL, video is too short to make something of it. I need real meat. Maybe reading papers here http://shrouduniversity.com/opticalsciences.php
Also I need to research counter-opinions from other scientists.
Only after that I can give my opinion. (Maybe in a year? )

That's a fair and open minded answer 1ovet137

Also here is one from physicist john Jackson called the cloth collapse theory

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ional.html

I believe the link you found. Has an audio interview with Jackson as well he was the physicist on the original sturp team in 1978.

Maybe in a year u can help me understand this aspect of the shroud better as physics is definitely far from.my strong point (by light years )

And yes it's important that you study the counter points as well. As a matter if fact during my first 2 years of shroud research I restricted myself to mostly anti shroud websites to find out if I was wasting my time or not with the shroud

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

1over137 wrote:FL, video is too short to make something of it. I need real meat. Maybe reading papers here http://shrouduniversity.com/opticalsciences.php
Also I need to research counter-opinions from other scientists.
Only after that I can give my opinion. (Maybe in a year? )

In one year, I could be dead! Anyway, I think Bippy's post on page 8 answered my question, specifically this link he provided:

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/accett2.pdf

I am reading every post and every link. I'm on page 8 of this topic so far and am waiting to see what will happen with the Ivellious character as this story unfolds. Did he eventually come to his senses? DON'T TELL ME! I want to find out on my own!

FL

Fl, I like the fact that you will at least read through the thread to get acquainted with the evidences for and against . I know that Pierson was against it but at least has a more open mind on the shroud now. He really gave me a run fir my money
I hope he is doing well in his work and in his personal life
I know his field of work takes a lot if guts. I didn't have the guts to keep pursuing it myself , but I guess God give sis each different strong and weak points .
God bless

Philip wrote:

I am reading every post and every link.

FL, glad to see that open mind in action! I will be interested to see your comments at various points along your trip through the thread. I was extremely skeptical first coming across this thread - especially with the history of faked relics and the perverse focus often surrounding them. In medieval times, I almost could see some guy with a trench coat opened to showcase various pieces of the cross and a few holy grails for sale. Initially seeing Gary Habermas, one of the world's most-knowledgeable experts on the Resurrection, kind of perked me up - especially after reading so much of the science Bippy tipped us to.

Habermas is also one if my favorites . Hopefully we can all go fishing with the guy one day. He just seems extremely down to earth, and it will be my first time fishing . ID love to pick his brains on the shroud and the New Testament .

FL and Bippy,

As I am not able to produce answer within short time and also find it not fair to post nothing I decided to post at least something.

Sorry.

Very interesting discussion on the Shroud.I've always accepted it as the burial clothe of Jesus but I've got to be honest I have not thoroughly researched the shroud,from an all sides point of view,still I've looked at it as just more evidence the bible is the true inspired word of God.I expect critics to doubt it and try to explain it away.

1over137 wrote:FL and Bippy,

As I am not able to produce answer within short time and also find it not fair to post nothing I decided to post at least something.

Sorry.

Hey 1over , it's ok . The shroud isn't something that can be researched over night
Take your time my friend
It has perplexed many scientists and it will continue to do this . This is actually one of the clues that tell us that something amazing happened on this burial cloth.

abelcainsbrother wrote:Very interesting discussion on the Shroud.I've always accepted it as the burial clothe of Jesus but I've got to be honest I have not thoroughly researched the shroud,from an all sides point of view,still I've looked at it as just more evidence the bible is the true inspired word of God.I expect critics to doubt it and try to explain it away.

Abel, almost no one cared much about shroud research until 1898 when an amateur photographer took a photograph and a positive image turned up instead of a negative one on his glass plate . This is when experts in all fields started to converge on it.
A great place to start is Russ Breault's shroud university . It's stacked with great shroud research

http://www.shrouduniversity.com