Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

[RickD]

jpbg wrote:
Saved poeple do not go to hell.

Amen!

You've finally seen the light!

Just when I was thinking you were hopelessly fighting against God and scripture, you've finally come around!

Yay! I think he finally agrees - those in Heb 10:29 were never saved to begin with. They were given the opportunity but chose to trample on Jesus, treat the covenant with contempt and reject the free gift.

Actually...

I think the context shows that Paul is speaking to believers.

But I also don't think losing salvation is mentioned in Hebrews 10.

I don't see any reason to read into the text that people can lose their salvation. Punishment for the believer can mean loss of eternal rewards, or even punishment for sin, in this life.

Anyone who reads loss of salvation into Hebrews 10, I believe, has to presuppose that believers can lose salvation, then read that back into the text.

[LittleHamster]

Ah yes, that's better. If they were believers, then we have...

"If they were given the opportunity but chose to trample on Jesus, treat the covenant with contempt, they would lose rewards, punished more severely - but not lose salvation"

[jpbg33]

I guess we are agreeing that Paul is referring to what happens to a believer if they sin willfully after they are saved.

Paul said they were sanctified by the blood of Jesus. Which to me according to that chapter says they were saved.

At lest we agree there.

[jpbg33]

So sense we agree that Paul was talking about what happens to a person, if they sin willfully after they are saved. Then we must agree that Paul said that they were on there way to hell.

Hebrews 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 

Hell fire is going to devour the adversaries.

We all no that saved people do not go to hell so they must have lost there salvation.

[LittleHamster]

So sense we agree that Paul was talking about what happens to a person, if they sin willfully after they are saved. Then we must agree that Paul said that they were on there way to hell.

Hebrews 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 

Hell fire is going to devour the adversaries.

We all no that saved people do not go to hell so they must have lost there salvation.

If Paul was addressing those who are saved, the believers, then they would be receiving punishment. If Paul was addressing those who were not saved, but went back to animal sacrifices upon receiving the truth, they would also receive punishment. Yes, people can fall away, but nowhere do these passages mention losing salvation.

[jpbg33]

The sanctification Paul was talking about in this chapter was salvation. Lost people are not perfected. So the lost can not be sanctified in the blood of Jesus. So if someone is said to be sanctified by the blood of Jesus then they most be saved. Unsaved people can not be sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Hebrews 10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 

Hebrews 10:14  For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 

Hebrews 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 


the blood of the covenant is Jesus's blood and the verse says the person was sanctified by this blood. So sense he was sanctified by the blood of Jesus. Then he was saved after which he willfully sinned. Then was on his way to hell. We Know saved people do not go to hell, so he must have lost his salvation.

[RickD]

I just posted, saying that in order to get the loss of salvation from these passages, one must read it into the text, because it doesn't actually say anything about the saved losing salvation or going to hell.

Then, littlehamster posts saying that nowhere do these passages mention losing salvation.

So what happens next?

Jpbg posts the scripture, which again, say nothing about someone who is saved, losing salvation and going to hell. And then Jpbg proves what littlehamster and I just said, by saying the texts say someone is going to hell, and losing salvation.

It's amazing how we can just add to what the text actually says, in order to try to make it back up our preconceived beliefs, instead of actually taking the text for what it says, and then have our beliefs reflect what the text actually says.

And again, this is why nobody can have a productive conversation with Jpbg.

[LittleHamster]

And again, this is why nobody can have a productive conversation with Jpbg.

Look at the bright side. jpdg has done humanity a great service, by his constant, incessant and heretical posting on loss of salvation, has single-handedly helped to convince hundreds and possibly thousands (and one day maybe millions) of readers on this forum, that eternal security is true and irreversible and that it is a divine impossiblity that anyone of the face of the planet will ever ever ever ever lose his salvation once it has been granted by GOD.

Thanks jpdg, you're the best !


Positive !

[jpbg33]

RickD this part of the conversation isn't really directed at you. You have already stated that you believe that Paul was talking about someone that was saved. LittleHamster is trying to play both sides. LittleHamster is not wanting to admit if Paul is talking about a person that was saved or someone that was not. So I will ask it more directly. LittleHamster was the person Paul was talking about saved or not. Jesus's blood is the blood of the covenant and Paul said the person was sanctified in the blood of the covenant. I believe that means he was saved. RickD said he thought the scripture implied that he was saved as well, but he didn't believe that the person was going to hell but just be punished here on Earth, and was still saved.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Lost poeple are not perfected.

[LittleHamster]

So I will ask it more directly. LittleHamster was the person Paul was talking about saved or not.

Here are some youtube videos on salvation. If you read through the 30,000 or so comments, I'm sure you'll find a definitive answer.

16,768 Comments...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz1bF3TXB1Y
2,191 Comments...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy3tSIg7Gi0
3,937 Comments....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMpp6LTC4Qs
3,546 Comments.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AJ9cYbhgvQ
3,029 Comments....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvdOMwYxASk

[Stu]

Can't seem to display the video so click on the link.

ABSOLUTELY TERRIFYING - Once Saved Always Saved Preacher Goes to Hell!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mcJkYpSTNM&t=

[1over137]

Guy who says about himself how smart and wise he is...
I do not trust this guy at all. (I would not trust any youtube video)
Plus, he is not consistent - in one moment he says to run from Calvinism, in another he says he is Calvinist.

[LittleHamster]

Sounds like he promised and preached OSAS to a whole bunch of people. They never received salvation (for whatever reason), they died, went to hell, and now they blame him. Congregational Backlash !

"Hey, You promised us eternal life in heaven !!! Look where we are !!!! We're coming to get you !!! (Sizzle Sizzle) Arrrrrgh !!!"

[Philip]

Hamster: Sounds like he promised and preached OSAS to a whole bunch of people. They never received salvation (for whatever reason), they died, went to hell, and now they blame him. Congregational Backlash !

If this were true - that people are in Hell that heard OSAS - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Scriptural fact that salvation is forever, and eternal life AIN'T TEMPORARY!!! Deceased people who are in (temporary, as opposed the permanent) Hell are only there because they were never saved to begin with! How about: NYSUYRA (Not yet saved until you really are!).

[LittleHamster]

Hamster: Sounds like he promised and preached OSAS to a whole bunch of people. They never received salvation (for whatever reason), they died, went to hell, and now they blame him. Congregational Backlash !

If this were true - that people are in Hell that heard OSAS - it has nothing whatsoever to do with the Scriptural fact that salvation is forever, and eternal life AIN'T TEMPORARY!!! Deceased people who are in (temporary, as opposed the permanent) Hell are only there because they were never saved to begin with! How about: NYSUYRA (Not yet saved until you really are!).

Philip !!!!. Relax, the main point I'm trying to make here is about why those in Hell would blame their predicament on a preacher. I'm suggesting that the never really repented and were never saved to begin with and never got saved along the way. So rather than blame themselves (for not truly putting their faith in Christ) they go and blame the messenger.