History Channel - Ape to Man

[Believer]

The History Channel is having a special titled Ape to Man that premiers on 8/7/05:

http://www.historychannel.com/apetoman/

In my opinion and MANY others, I do take the Bible as 100% truth in everything. When it comes to the book of Genesis and the creation, I do support evolution. Look at it this way. You have a large clump of clay, you then keep forming it into a sculpture, now this would be considered evolution because it is evolving from a clump to a sculpture that represents something. It also is being formed by hand which is also created. So when the Bible states creation it most likely means that we did indeed evolve but with a hand in the process. This being the account of Adam being formed from dust which could of been any kind of earthy matter. It just simply is impossible for ANYONE to consider that the universe formed from absolutely nothing! You can keep going back infinitely and everything has to keep being formed by another thing and so on, it is infinite, the logical conclusion is God. While many atheists will not accept this because they ask "Where did God come from them?", it is not possible for them to know, our minds, even the smartest of people, have no clue how God would come from nothing if everything else came from nothing. God just was and is. We are not God. Plain and simple. I really don't mind if evolution is considered a fact because I simply know that you can go back as far as you want and you still wouldn't know how the universe came into existence. There is no answer, all things MUST come from an originating source - God.

[roysr]

While I am not sure how long this show has been scheduled, don't you find it a bit peculiar they are showing this so soon after president Bush made his comments about ID?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

What did Bush say about ID?

Also, at least one of the commercials is so misleading. It makes it sound like the only problems with evolution are the lack of missing links.

[roysr]

What did Bush say about ID?

He just recently made the following brief comment about ID...

"Both sides ought to be properly taught . . . so people can understand what the debate is about," "Part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01686.html

A lot of the ID critics/evolutionists have really made a huge deal about his statement. They act like he is trying to bring us back to the dark ages even. I have also seen quite a few people like Bill O'Rielly and Chris Mathews COMPLETELY misrepresent ID recently in response to Bush's statement. Chris Mathews, for instance, doesn't realise that ID proponents aren't arguing against the "common descent" aspect of evolution.

Also, at least one of the commercials is so misleading. It makes it sound like the only problems with evolution are the lack of missing links.

The title itself is misleading, evolutionists do not claim that we evolved from "apes". The theory just says apes and humans had a common ancestor. Now, the actual show might clear this up (I havent seen it yet) but it still doesn't justify using a misleading title like that imo. And do you know what the funny part is? If a creationist made such a mistake on a TV program they would get attacked/ridiculed to no end by pro-evolutionists. However, as long as the show is pro-evolution they will let mistakes like that slide.

[Believer]

Just finished watching the 2 hour show. To sum it up, it is non-sense, the people claim we evolved from apes and the show just flipped-flopped. It goes through most of the ape creatures since time began, and then at about an hour and a half it says that neanderthal man and common man co-existed, two completely different species. Common man killed off all other species and then common man populated the earth. In the end they just don't know. But the lady in it said every year, a significant discovery is made and she never makes the same lecture twice.

Scientists agree we descended from common ancestors, not from apes. So in Genesis 1:26-28 it says:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Now Genesis 1:27 says:

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

So this could mean that He created different kinds of "people" in that time.

Then in Genesis 2:

Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Adam and Eve

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

23 The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, '
for she was taken out of man."

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

it talks about Adam and Eve, suggesting that among all the "people", there were common man and women who then had children. So then, how do we fit under common ancestors if according to the Bible there was common man and women in the beginning?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

These missing links are 90% imagination, 10% actual bones. Thank you, goodnight. Second, a problem with the often-touted "98% DNA is the same between man and apes" is this-the other 2% are TRIVIAL genes, while the 98% are body building genes...SO, we actually should be apes according to that test.

[roysr]

These missing links are 90% imagination, 10% actual bones. Thank you, goodnight.

I agree, and I also find it funny that with the amount of fossils they find so few are considered transitional (I am refering to species-to-species transitonal fossils not general lineage) even by them. They just cherry pick the few that supposedly work with it, then ignore the rest. Also, at times they can be very loose with the meaning of "transitional fossil".


On a side note, I bet you could make a more "visually compelling" transition between current apes and man with the skulls from recently deceased humans and apes. As far as cranium size goes, you could carefully select the skulls from microcephalics and people with smaller heads etc.. to make it a "visually" smooth transition.

( the following links have some pictures of microcephalics)
http://www.showhistory.com/pinheads.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_the_Pinhead

Also, while microcephalics generally have a low IQ, it is not true in all cases. Basically they can have the same cranium size as "homo-erectus" but still have an average IQ. The following website gives some info on it...

http://cogprints.org/2263/00/skoytarget.htm

[chocloateonly]

The History Channel is having a special titled Ape to Man that premiers on 8/7/05:

http://www.historychannel.com/apetoman/

In my opinion and MANY others, I do take the Bible as 100% truth in everything. When it comes to the book of Genesis and the creation, I do support evolution. Look at it this way. You have a large clump of clay, you then keep forming it into a sculpture, now this would be considered evolution because it is evolving from a clump to a sculpture that represents something. It also is being formed by hand which is also created. So when the Bible states creation it most likely means that we did indeed evolve but with a hand in the process. This being the account of Adam being formed from dust which could of been any kind of earthy matter. It just simply is impossible for ANYONE to consider that the universe formed from absolutely nothing! You can keep going back infinitely and everything has to keep being formed by another thing and so on, it is infinite, the logical conclusion is God. While many atheists will not accept this because they ask "Where did God come from them?", it is not possible for them to know, our minds, even the smartest of people, have no clue how God would come from nothing if everything else came from nothing. God just was and is. We are not God. Plain and simple. I really don't mind if evolution is considered a fact because I simply know that you can go back as far as you want and you still wouldn't know how the universe came into existence. There is no answer, all things MUST come from an originating source - God.

It is interesting that my biggest problem for becoming a believer is exactly what you wrote about. I read what you write and I come up with a different idea.

You're right, we can only conjecture how it 'all' began. But I do not feel I should automatically assume there is a god just because I don't understand. An equally possible explanation is that something happened that we do not yet have the knowledge to explain. The fact that we can't wrap our minds around the answer doesn't presuppose a god.

[Believer]

The History Channel is having a special titled Ape to Man that premiers on 8/7/05:

http://www.historychannel.com/apetoman/

In my opinion and MANY others, I do take the Bible as 100% truth in everything. When it comes to the book of Genesis and the creation, I do support evolution. Look at it this way. You have a large clump of clay, you then keep forming it into a sculpture, now this would be considered evolution because it is evolving from a clump to a sculpture that represents something. It also is being formed by hand which is also created. So when the Bible states creation it most likely means that we did indeed evolve but with a hand in the process. This being the account of Adam being formed from dust which could of been any kind of earthy matter. It just simply is impossible for ANYONE to consider that the universe formed from absolutely nothing! You can keep going back infinitely and everything has to keep being formed by another thing and so on, it is infinite, the logical conclusion is God. While many atheists will not accept this because they ask "Where did God come from them?", it is not possible for them to know, our minds, even the smartest of people, have no clue how God would come from nothing if everything else came from nothing. God just was and is. We are not God. Plain and simple. I really don't mind if evolution is considered a fact because I simply know that you can go back as far as you want and you still wouldn't know how the universe came into existence. There is no answer, all things MUST come from an originating source - God.

It is interesting that my biggest problem for becoming a believer is exactly what you wrote about. I read what you write and I come up with a different idea.

You're right, we can only conjecture how it 'all' began. But I do not feel I should automatically assume there is a god just because I don't understand. An equally possible explanation is that something happened that we do not yet have the knowledge to explain. The fact that we can't wrap our minds around the answer doesn't presuppose a god.

So the fact that most people are now dropping natural darwinian and neo-darwinian evolution in place for something other, like evolution guided by hand, still doesn't make you believe? Anthony Flew converted to deism, highly respected in the atheistic and agnostic community, he was their candle light for their movement. So it seems to me that you believe one day we will find a way to show that matter comes from absolutely nothing? Atoms, molecules, all invisible things are STILL matter, they had a starting place. Like I said in my post you can keep going further back before it all began and something has to create that something and something had to create that something and something had to create that something, etc..... It is infinite, UNTIL you can say a God (Intelligent Being) was involved. The Bible never is clear on how we came to be except that we were created (Pat Robertson from The 700 Club, Christian Broadcasting Network, said he believes creationism is just a bunch of garbage but not so with Intelligent Design, Pat Robertson has been a strong believer for decades), so do other things in the Bible. God does something like present us a bunch of books within a book but leaves it up to us to as a task to discover how it happened, fill in the blanks. The only reason people still except natural darwinian evolution is because they don't want there to be a God. Countless people, including myself have gone through things only something divine could do. How about when someone is having a Word of Knowledge about a sick person that has an incurrable disease or has been sick for decades and than all of a sudden at that moment they are healed, COMPLETELY? Just by hearing this Word of Knowledge presented to that person does not trick the brain into automatically making you healed of whatever you had and be free from it. I don't mean to sound harsh but according to the Bible, a person who doesn't believe in God (you) is a fool. There are other places in scripture that mention people being fools for their disbelief. Visit http://www.tektonics.org, it is a highly respected website for answering questions with nice long articles that make sense. J.P. Holding among others are geniuses. Another one I like is http://www.geocities.com/atheismsucks, especially http://atheismsucks.blogspot.com, since it is updated a few times a day compared to the main website. If you were born into a non-believing family, you have a problem because you you said it is hard for you to believe, if you were born into a believing family but some things just didn't quite fit with you and the Bible making you turn into a skeptic, it's not the Bible's fault. Instead of indulging yourself with atheistic material on the internet (which I did and caused great doubt and confusion), I suggest you get away from it and read good wholesome Christian theology and philosophy and apologetics and whatever else you come across. I remember having a vivid dream that Jesus spoke to me and showed these ignorant people (atheists) and told me in what I can remember "These people do not know what they do, love them anyways". The message is clear, they don't know when they think they do and also to love them in what Jesus preached His life out about in the New Testament. I could keep on rambling with tons of information, but I think this is enough. Just remember, matter (whatever it being) CANNOT come from non-matter, I realize this is what we hold now, and I am certain this will continue on in the future. I used to be a big doubter, almost a non-believer, but I found the truth, and the fact that I mentioned what Anthony Flew converted to (deism) is another reason to believe.

[chocloateonly]

"Anthony Flew converted to deism, highly respected in the atheistic and agnostic community, he was their candle light for their movement."

I'm not going to decide to do or not do something because someone else did or said it. So it doesn't matter who said what in the end.

"Atoms, molecules, all invisible things are STILL matter, they had a starting place. Etc..."

I am not a physicist or a astrophysicist. Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

"Countless people, including myself have gone through things only something divine could do. How about when someone is having a Word of Knowledge about a sick person that has an incurrable disease or has been sick for decades and than all of a sudden at that moment they are healed, COMPLETELY? "

"Miracles" are tough to prove or disaprove. People's bodies can change for the positive for many reasons: will power, diet, environment, medicine, etc. There are many more likely explanations (some of which we are still in the process of understanding) and no need to fall back on things like miracles. There are also too many charletans out there. It muddies the waters

"The only reason people still except natural darwinian evolution is because they don't want there to be a God. "

Nonsense. And this sort of exchange will get us nowhere.

"I don't mean to sound harsh but according to the Bible, a person who doesn't believe in God (you) is a fool."

You wouldn't happen to have a quote on this? I find this remarkably short-sighted. It has rather alarming implications - but before I start saying the wrong things, some quotes would help (or maybe someone else's interpretation).

"I remember having a vivid dream that Jesus spoke to me and showed these ignorant people (atheists) and told me in what I can remember "These people do not know what they do, love them anyways".

A dream is not exactly the best evidence. Our minds are very creative in making them seem very real. I've had dreams where for the rest of my life, I can recall how vivid they were. It is more likely that the Jesus you saw was a creation of your mind, but debating it does not serve much of a purpose as I can either accept your word or not. You certainly believe what you saw and do not question your interpretation of it.

Thanks for the sites - I am always looking for sites on both sides.

[Believer]

"Anthony Flew converted to deism, highly respected in the atheistic and agnostic community, he was their candle light for their movement."

I'm not going to decide to do or not do something because someone else did or said it. So it doesn't matter who said what in the end.

"Atoms, molecules, all invisible things are STILL matter, they had a starting place. Etc..."

I am not a physicist or a astrophysicist. Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

"Countless people, including myself have gone through things only something divine could do. How about when someone is having a Word of Knowledge about a sick person that has an incurrable disease or has been sick for decades and than all of a sudden at that moment they are healed, COMPLETELY? "

"Miracles" are tough to prove or disaprove. People's bodies can change for the positive for many reasons: will power, diet, environment, medicine, etc. There are many more likely explanations (some of which we are still in the process of understanding) and no need to fall back on things like miracles. There are also too many charletans out there. It muddies the waters

"The only reason people still except natural darwinian evolution is because they don't want there to be a God. "

Nonsense. And this sort of exchange will get us nowhere.

"I don't mean to sound harsh but according to the Bible, a person who doesn't believe in God (you) is a fool."

You wouldn't happen to have a quote on this? I find this remarkably short-sighted. It has rather alarming implications - but before I start saying the wrong things, some quotes would help (or maybe someone else's interpretation).

"I remember having a vivid dream that Jesus spoke to me and showed these ignorant people (atheists) and told me in what I can remember "These people do not know what they do, love them anyways".

A dream is not exactly the best evidence. Our minds are very creative in making them seem very real. I've had dreams where for the rest of my life, I can recall how vivid they were. It is more likely that the Jesus you saw was a creation of your mind, but debating it does not serve much of a purpose as I can either accept your word or not. You certainly believe what you saw and do not question your interpretation of it.

Thanks for the sites - I am always looking for sites on both sides.

"Anthony Flew converted to deism, highly respected in the atheistic and agnostic community, he was their candle light for their movement."

I'm not going to decide to do or not do something because someone else did or said it. So it doesn't matter who said what in the end.

Okay, yes, ONE guy out of MANY highly respected people have converted to a belief in God.

"Atoms, molecules, all invisible things are STILL matter, they had a starting place. Etc..."

I am not a physicist or a astrophysicist. Just because I don't understand it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

IT IS ALL MATTER! EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN EXPLORE IS MATTER! WHERE DID THIS MATTER COME FROM? NOTHING?! Matter has an originating point, it is not possible to even think for a moment that matter comes from nothing, for what can nothing make?

"Countless people, including myself have gone through things only something divine could do. How about when someone is having a Word of Knowledge about a sick person that has an incurrable disease or has been sick for decades and than all of a sudden at that moment they are healed, COMPLETELY? "

"Miracles" are tough to prove or disaprove. People's bodies can change for the positive for many reasons: will power, diet, environment, medicine, etc. There are many more likely explanations (some of which we are still in the process of understanding) and no need to fall back on things like miracles. There are also too many charletans out there. It muddies the waters

Okay, so you deny that divine miracles or healings exist? Tell me in your understanding, from what I have seen, that an every day ordinary person is very gravely ill on the verge of death, a person gives them a Word of Knowledge, and they INSTANTLY become healed, go to the doctor who once confirmed they were dying with all the best medical equipment, and now is passed off as negative for showing any signs of problems. How can the brain that quickly cause an almost fatal disease to become healed INSTANTLY just by hearing words??? Their is a difference between divine miracles and divine healings.

"The only reason people still except natural darwinian evolution is because they don't want there to be a God. "

Nonsense. And this sort of exchange will get us nowhere.

Actually it is a belief that they want it to be true so it eliminates the possibility of God. I have done too much study on this.

"I don't mean to sound harsh but according to the Bible, a person who doesn't believe in God (you) is a fool."

You wouldn't happen to have a quote on this? I find this remarkably short-sighted. It has rather alarming implications - but before I start saying the wrong things, some quotes would help (or maybe someone else's interpretation).

"The fool says in his heart, there is no God" - Psalm 14:1

There are more quotes in the Bible that give examples of fools. Do some healthy research on it.

"I remember having a vivid dream that Jesus spoke to me and showed these ignorant people (atheists) and told me in what I can remember "These people do not know what they do, love them anyways".

A dream is not exactly the best evidence. Our minds are very creative in making them seem very real. I've had dreams where for the rest of my life, I can recall how vivid they were. It is more likely that the Jesus you saw was a creation of your mind, but debating it does not serve much of a purpose as I can either accept your word or not. You certainly believe what you saw and do not question your interpretation of it.

Careful, I did not say I SAW Jesus, I said I heard Him speak to me in my dream. I have seen plentiful pictures of artists renditions of what Jesus might have looked like, but I did not see Him, I only heard Him. The dream started with a room like a party, in it were full of atheists. Then the atheists became a blur in the background shortly later and a voice cameover in my dream that said "These people do not know what they do, love them anyways". This is because I had a grudge against atheists. Now the fact that what I heard in my dream confirms to me that it is what Jesus preached for His life, it also showed to me that yes, atheists are fools as quoted above on Psalm 14:1. I do realize the brain is good on fabrication, but many instances are given in the Bible that shows that many people had dreams that came true. The fact that I have seen many pictures of Jesus and then in my dream hearing Him instead of seeing Him, confirms further that this can't be fabrication, and it was also specifically tailored to me pertaining to problems I had with people. I have done research on dream interpretation, and I wouldn't for a second think this dream was a fabrication. I have looked into the myths of dreams and whatnot, this was a unique dream.

Thanks for the sites - I am always looking for sites on both sides.

You're very welcome . I hope one day you will find the truth as I have been in the same shoes you have been in. For some people, in this generation where it seems to good to be true, and usually is, they can't accept the Bible and reject it based on todays influences. Others will accept it as is. There are TONS of Christian resources that back the Bible up through many forms of science and other methods. If you do sincerely ask Jesus Christ into your life and heart, I GUARANTEE you that you will change. It isn't the words of the Bible that do it, it is something out there that we can't comprehend that does it. I also want to to let you know that even if you are really skeptical at this point (at which I was for years in my life), you WILL find truth. Yes, there is science to explain what happens in SOME situations, but dont you think God allows us to discover some of these things? I hope you will find the truth and you will believe, because going to hell is the worst thing that could happen. History has been plagued with all these pagan stories of creation and heaven and hell and whatever, but all those don't hold credibility because they didn't make sense. The Bible does, it has withstood time, time and time again. If you just find it too hard to believe in God and the Bible, that's fine, it doesn't make you a bad person, it may be just a lack of TOTAL and COMPLETE understanding of all sides of the debates.

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Brian, stop growling at the skeptic.

And, chocloateonly, one of your many statements seems to have the hint that ID is based on ignorance, that because scientists don't understand something, they believe in God. I may have overanalyzed, but I thought I'd let you know-belief in God, in the realm of science, is backed up by knowledge, not the lack of it. I wonder how much you believe in science that actually has theological implications. Do you believe in the Big Bang?

[chocloateonly]

Do I believe in the Big Bang? Do I believe in a scientific theory? Strange question to me. The evidence seems to support the Big Bang at the moment. There are a few other interesting ideas out there as well. The question I would answer is: Do I believe the evidence supporting the Big Bang leads to the Big Bang? In general, I would say yes. And even if evidence eventually points to a different version of this theory, ok. And if the evidence points to the existence of god, that would be ok too. I think it unlikely that will happen (that is, I don't expect science to be able to confirm an answer in this way).

Many of the current criticisms of the big bang are weak. For example, some people spend a long time arguing about the odds of life happening. I don't really see much value in such discussions. I prefer discussions around issues that should be verifiable. These include discussions on stories that happened in the bible and are factual (for example, the flood).

Belief in god is backed by knowledge? Not entirely clear what you were saying here. Do you mean that science supports the idea that god exists?

[AttentionKMartShoppers]

Yes

[chocloateonly]

Hmm, ok, I'll bite. How?