Evidence for God from Science

Is there not the believe by some anyways that the penalty for our sins is a separation from God?

R7-12 wrote:There were no sins literally or mystically laid upon Christ at the time of his death.

The cry coming from Christ just prior to his death was an expression of what he endured.

God has promised never to leave or forsake anyone and that includes His firstborn son.

I remember, also, that our blessed Lord had lived in unbroken fellowship with God, and to be forsaken was a new grief to him. He had never known what the dark was till then: his life had been lived in the light of God... His fellowship with the Father was of the highest, deepest, fullest order; and what must the loss of it have been? We lose but drops when we lose our joyful experience of heavenly fellowship; and yet the loss is killing: but to our Lord Jesus Christ the sea was dried up I mean his sea of fellowship with the infinite God. -- Charles Spurgeon

Felgar wrote:There was a preacher on TV the other day that was discussing prophecy and he made an obvious point that I had never realized before... When Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" just before He died, what He was really saying is that He was the fullfilment of Psalm 22.

Felgar wrote:Back in those times they didn't have Bibles with numbered chapters and verses, so a passage of scripture would have been known by the first part of it. In much the same way that we know Hymns by their first part (Amazing Grace, etc) rather than by a number. So basically Jesus is telling everyone to read Psalm 22.

Felgar wrote:I initially was thinking that the theory is pretty solid, and then when I looked up the passage in Matthew, the NIV version actually shows Psalm 22 as a reference to Jesus' words. So it went from "that's plausible" to "how could I have missed that?"

It seems so obvious I don't know why I didn't catch on to it earlier, but in case anyone else hadn't I thought I'd share. Psalm 22 as it turns out is about Jesus suffering, being killed, and then delivering humanity to God. The preacher pointed out that it's interesting how the Psalm states that Jesus' "hands and feet are pierced" when in fact crucifixion as a form of capital punishment would not have been around in David's time.

R7-12 wrote:The piercing mentioned in that text and others is a reference to what actually caused Christ's death - the piercing of the soldier's spear into his side. Christ did not die of asphyxiation. If he had he would have been considered an unfit or unworthy sacrifice according to the law.

IRQ Conflict wrote: The Father did hear Him, and turned His back on Him. He raised Himself from the dead, after preaching in hades for three days.

Swamper wrote:Where's the scriptural evidence that Jesus was in Hell? It seems more likely that this is a mistranslation and Jesus was simply dead in his grave for three days (there are several words translated as "hell" in the Bible, one simply referring to the grave, which is something that seems to cause confusion to no end).

Lexicon Results for hades (Strong's 86)
Greek for 86

Pronunciation Guide
hades {hah'-dace}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 1:146,22 from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492
Part of Speech
n pr loc
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions

2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead

3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
++++
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:This assumes that Psalms 22 was a prophesy...

R7=12 wrote:The piercing mentioned in that text and others is a reference to what actually caused Christ's death - the piercing of the soldier's spear into his side. Christ did not die of asphyxiation. If he had he would have been considered an unfit or unworthy sacrifice according to the law.

A medical expert as quoted by JP Holding wrote:There is only one circumstance which fits both the story as given and medical science. That is the one where a patient has died and the blood in his heart has pooled long enough to fractionate into packed cells and serum. A spear thrust into the heart would allow these fluids to pour out with exactly the appearance recorded. We should note that such a patient would be DEAD.

One alternate has been proposed with some plausibility. That one states that Jesus' trials led to the accumulation of a pleural effusion. The spear then allowed that water to flow out. But such a circumstance would not lead to blood flowing out as described. That would require the spear to penetrate the heart. Again, the patient would be DEAD. Even this very unlikely scenario requires the patient to be dead, and the rest of [the] arguments are therefore nonsense.

FFC wrote:Where did He go when He preached to the spirits in prison?

JP Holding wrote:Did Christ not also preach to those who lived between Noah and his own time that had died? If so, why does the verse not say so? Why are those of Noah's time specifically mentioned if this was a message to all who had died prior to Christ? It will not do to say that Peter was simply specifying one group out of many that were preached to; this is merely begging the question, even if (as Marshall tells us -- Mars.1P, 126) that the generation of Noah was noted proverbially for its wickedness. Why just the generation of Noah, and not, for example, Sodom and Gomorrah's inhabitants? Was the generation of Noah randomly selected here by Peter? We should try to find a more secure context for this passage, and this leads to the first important question:

Who are these "spirits"? LDS apologists of course assume that these are the spirits of men, but the word "spirit" is also used in Jewish and Christian literature to refer to supernatural beings and especially evil spirits (e.g., Mark 1:23, 26, 27; Tobit 6:6; 2 Macc. 3:24). Note also that the passage refers to "the spirits who disobeyed," not to "the spirits of those who disobeyed," suggesting strongly that these critters are spirits by nature and always were. [Kist.PJ, 142] Combined with the limitation to the days of Noah described above, it is possible to anchor this passage in another well-known account, this one from the apocryphal book of 1 Enoch.

1 Enoch includes an account of the "sons of God" who came among the daughters of men and corrupted the human race, based on Gen. 6:1-4 (cf. Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4). These "sons of God" are variously named as angels, watchers, and in one place as "spirits" and Enoch is sent to tell them that they are out of luck (1 Enoch 12:4, 15:8):

And they said to me, "Enoch, son of righteousness, go and make known to the Watchers of heaven who have abandoned the high heaven, the holy eternal place, and have defiled themselves with women..."

But now the giants who are born from spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth.

This book also notes that certain angels were "bound" and thrown into a "prison house" (1 Enoch 10:4-6, 12-14, 13:1, etc.) Thus the "spirits in prison" are to be identified with these referred to in 1 Enoch, and Peter is either relating that Christ took up in reality what Enoch had done fictionally, or else is using this account typologically "to depict dramatically Christ's victory over evil." [Mars.1P, 129] (Michaels, it should be indicated, refers to these as "spirits in refuge" and believes that the reference is not to the sinning angels, but to their demonic offspring. His reasons for making this identification are not compelling, but this obviously no more agrees with the LDS view than ours does.)

PL wrote:Do you think Jesus actually went on a "missions trip" to Hell? How does that square with His words to the dying thief in Luke 23:43?