Evidence for God from Science

Has anyone here been to a CS church service? It can be a bit unsettling. Basically, CS's believe that Christ died to reveal that death and sickness are sinful things that can be overcome, because they don't actually exist.

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4. Jesus Christ. Christian Science denies that the incarnation of Christ was the fullness of deity dwelling in human flesh, denies the perfection of the man Jesus, and attempts to explain away the historical death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ (Science and Health, pp. 336, 29, 332, 53, 398, 313, 593; Miscellaneous Writings, p. 201) Christian Science believes that Mary's conception of Jesus was spiritual -- on pages 332 and 347 of Science and Health, the virgin birth of Christ is described and explained: "Jesus was the offspring of Mary's self-conscious communion with God. ... Mary's conception of him was spiritual." Christian Science believes that the names "Jesus" and "Christ" do not refer to the same person -- that Jesus is the human man and Christ is the "divine idea" (i.e., "dualism"). They teach that the spiritual (good) cannot dwell in material bodies because they are evil; thus Jesus could not have been both God and man. [To the contrary, the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is not the divine idea of God but was God uniquely manifested in the flesh, truly God and truly man, one divine Person with two indivisible natures, who is the only Savior and the only truth and Lord (John 1:1-3,14; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:6-7; John 14:6).] Christian Science believes that Jesus was not God and the only way to heaven, but only the "wayshower" (cf. Jn. 20:31; I Jn. 4:2,3).

Concerning the blood atonement of Jesus Christ: "The material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin when it was shed upon 'the accursed tree,' than when it was flowing in his veins ..." (Science and Health, p. 25). Christian Science teaches that the death of Jesus Christ for sin was a "man-made" theory, and that Jesus was alive in the tomb, demonstrating the "power of Spirit to overrule mortal, material sense" (Science and Health, p. 44). Eddy states, "Christ was not crucified ... Jesus, being the man who possessed the Christ consciousness, was the one who went to the cross and who appeared to die." Thus, according to the theology of Christian Science, the Bible only appears to say that Jesus died on the cross and His body was laid in the tomb; it must instead be understood that Jesus actually never died, but was rather in the tomb denying death's reality!

5. Holy Spirit. Christian Science denies that the Holy Spirit is a personal being. It teaches that the Holy Spirit is Christian Science.

6. The Resurrection. It is obvious that if Jesus never physically died on the cross to atone for sins that mankind cannot commit (Science and Health, pp. 45-46), then the resurrection must also have a unique meaning in Christian Science. Eddy explains, "When Jesus reproduced his body after its burial, he revealed the myth or material falsity of evil; its powerlessness to destroy good and the omnipotence of the Mind that knows this: he also showed forth the error of nothingness of supposed life in matter, and the great somethingness of the good we possess, which is of Spirit, and immortal" (Miscellaneous Writings, p. 201). Jesus resurrection was thus the manifestation of the error of evil. He demonstrated that sin and death are illusions and that if one wishes to rid themselves of these illusions, they only need to deny their reality.

7. Sin. Christian Science denies the existence of all matter, including man's physical body. They say that man is "incapable of sin, sickness, and death." They claim sin, sickness, and death are the "effects of error," thereby denying the reality of sin. [HJB] Bottom line, to Christian Science, there is no sin (Science and Health, p. 447). This is a consistent deduction and fundamental principle of the Christian Science system -- namely, God is all and God is good, and since the real man has never departed from his original state of perfection, he is not in need of salvation. He is saved now and reposing in the bosom of the Father. He has always been saved -- that is, as God's idea of the expression of the mind, man is forever held in the divine consciousness. And since sin and evil have no reality, all ideas of sin and evil are illusions. They are the product of the mortal mind. Hence, it is a sense of sin which is sinful because of the illusory product of the mortal mind. They say that man's real problem is the belief of sin, and that "Christ came to destroy the belief of sin." In other words, Jesus came to save mankind from the false belief that sin is real! Jesus saving work was to exemplify the fact that death is unreal, that sin is only an illusion or false belief, and that to deny its existence is the ultimate task of each person.]

8. Salvation. Since Christian Scientists do not believe that sin is real, they, therefore, see no need for salvation in Jesus Christ. Notwithstanding, Christian Scientists still teach a salvation based on works -- and contrary to even their own teachings, a salvation through victory over suffering and temptation. [HJB]

9. Hell. Christian Science denies the existence of hell and eternal punishment, and, therefore, there is no devil (Science and Health, p. 469). Hell is defined as "mortal belief; error; lust; remorse; hatred; revenge; sin; sickness; death." They believe that hell is a self-imposed "mental anguish," emanating from the guilt of one's imagined sin. [HJB]

10. Man's Destiny. Christian Science teaches that since God is all good and nothing that is real exists outside God, then sin, sickness, and death are mortal error or an illusion. Christ, as the Truth, therefore came to set man free from these false beliefs by His teachings and example (Science and Health, pp. 473, 475, 108). Christian Science denies the penal, substitutionary atonement of Christ, saying, ''The material blood of Jesus was no more efficacious to cleanse from sin when it was shed on 'the accursed tree,' than when it was flowing in his veins as he went daily about His Father's business" (Science and Health, p.25). "Jesus taught the way of Life by demonstration. There is but one way to heaven, harmony, and Christ in Divine Science shows us this way" (Science and Health, p. 242). ''Universal salvation rests on progression and probation … No final judgment awaits mortals …" (Science and Health, p. 291)

11. Disease and Death. Christian Scientists claim that since organic disease does not exist, "the cause of all so-called disease is mental" [i.e., 'the belief in sin is thereby the cause of it'], "a mistaken belief" (Science and Health, p. 377). They say that since our physical bodies do not exist, disease and death are only illusions (Science and Health, pp. 348,386). [To the contrary, the Bible teaches that sin, sickness, and evil are not an illusion, but a result of man's willful choice to rebel against a Holy God, and death (both physical and the spiritual eternal separation from God) is the result of sin (Rom. 3:10, 23; 5:12-14; 1 John 1:8-10).] They believe they have restored Christ's principles of divine healing through their practices of mental healing; i.e., the healing performed by Christian Science involves helping a person to deny the reality of his illness, and thereby, any failure to heal is due to a person's inability to overcome his belief. Mary Baker Eddy claimed to have this power of healing (called Divine Science), though she never provided any tangible proof of it. [HJB] [Whereas the Christian Science approach to healing may help psychosomatic illnesses, it has been scientifically demonstrated that it is not effective with real illness. In fact, studies comparing the cumulative death rates of practicing Christian Scientists with control groups have shown significantly higher death rates among the Christian Scientists (Journal of American Medical Association, September 22/29, 1989, pp 1657-58; and Morbidity Weekly Report, August 23, 1991, pp. 579-582).]

12. The "Gospel" of Christian Science. Jesus, who possessed the Christ consciousness as do all men to a lesser extent, went to the cross, not to bring about forgiveness of sin, for sin is an illusion, but rather to demonstrate that death is an illusion. On the morning of the resurrection, the supposed physical body of Jesus was reproduced in its original illusionary form, for all matter is illusion, and thereby demonstrated to mankind that all could do the same by denying the reality of sin and death.

Jesus' "seeming" death on the cross was not intended to pay for our sins, but to prove the unreality of sin, disease, and death. The Bible is full of mistakes. Jesus' words were recorded by "dull disciples ... in a decaying language," and must be spiritually interpreted through Christian Science.

To put it another way: "Jesus was laid down as the result of apparent death, into a fictitious tomb, in an unreal body, to make an unnecessary atonement for sins that had never been a reality and had been committed in an imaginary body, and that He saves from non-existing evil those headed toward an imaginary hell, the false fancy of an erroneous Mortal Mind" (J.K. VanBaalen, The Chaos of Cults).

13. Conclusion. Christian Science offers some real enticements -- a "spiritually scientific" method for healing, victory over life's circumstances, and guaranteed salvation. All one has to do to receive these blessings is to study Eddy's writings and obey them to the letter. She was God's messenger to this age and her writings are considered infallible. Just obey her teaching, and learn to think as she thought, and you will be victorious.

Personally, I think Christian Science is deadly. Their teachings can cause pain and loss for people with loved ones that are seriously ill. I think we should be praying at all times, but when you rely on faith/prayer alone for healing, it should only be done when things are out of hand, not when they're in a position that can be resolved easily. The tragedies and deaths that occur in Christian Science are mostly because of the beliefs of the followers, not the will of God.

Ark~Magic wrote:Personally, I think Christian Science is deadly. Their teachings can cause pain and loss for people with loved ones that are seriously ill. I think we should be praying at all times, but when you rely on faith/prayer alone for healing, it should only be done when things are out of hand, not when they're in a position that can be resolved easily. The tragedies and deaths that occur in Christian Science are mostly because of the beliefs of the followers, not the will of God.

Not only that, but they also don't believe in Jesus' divinity.

Ah yes...Christian science, another lovely and annoying cult...which has a cult a block or two away from my future dorm

WHY CAN'T ANYONE write the whole name? I thought there was a CS Lewis church for a while there.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:WHY CAN'T ANYONE write the whole name? I thought there was a CS Lewis church for a while there.

Dude, I did in the title.
Someone should go to a CS practitioner and report what he or she discovered.

Does anyone have any verses on Jesus' stance on medical assistance? The only thing I've heard is that Luke was a physician before becoming a disciple, but that doesn't prove anything.

I've been wondering exactly where the line is drawn between faith healing and going to the doctor. I know now that demons aren't behind illness, (it finally dawned on me the other month that Jesus cast out demons and healed people separately, and I don't think once cast out a demon to heal,) so it makes me wonder. Our bodies were saved from sin by Christ's sacrifice and our new life in Him, and by faith in His ability and will to heal us we can be healed, so at what point do we go to the doctor?

Then what of health insurance? God's led me to not have any right now, (though He may indicate otherwise in the future,) and so I'm living on faith for my health. He told me just two weeks ago that I need to be flossing by a series of obvious coincidences. I did once, but haven't since. I see Him as my health insurance, also seeing as how I rely on Him for all of my finances. I figure that if He'll want me to go to the hospital He'll give me the money and then tell me to. If not He'll lead me to pray and give me the faith for a healing. I know full well that He'll do such things, (I'm not trying to debate that here.) But should all Christians ultimately, because of our available healing by faith, go without health insurance? I mean, God could certainly tell certain people He wants them to get it, as He's told me and others I know not to, but what of most of us?

I tend toward believing that if we have the faith for it we have no need of health insurance or medical assistance. We have the Great Physician, don't we? And He certainly is capable, and apparently willing also, to heal us. That is, of course, if we have the faith for it!

kateliz wrote:I tend toward believing that if we have the faith for it we have no need of health insurance or medical assistance. We have the Great Physician, don't we? And He certainly is capable, and apparently willing also, to heal us. That is, of course, if we have the faith for it!

Agreed. I believe that if we had enough faith we could be perfectly healthy. Yet also God provides in many ways. Why would God multiply the loaves and fishes to feed the people instead of just making them instantly full? Somewhere in there is a fine line between taking the help we're given and never doing anything within our God-given capabilities because we think we're acting on faith. I'll admit though, the pastor of the church I attended this morning said so many Christians are guilty of "practical atheism" and that did get me thinking. Sure we confess Jesus is Lord, but then completely ignore Him as we go about trying to survive and earn a living. Somewhere in the middle is reasonable I think...

kateliz wrote:Does anyone have any verses on Jesus' stance on medical assistance? The only thing I've heard is that Luke was a physician before becoming a disciple, but that doesn't prove anything.

I've been wondering exactly where the line is drawn between faith healing and going to the doctor. I know now that demons aren't behind illness, (it finally dawned on me the other month that Jesus cast out demons and healed people separately, and I don't think once cast out a demon to heal,) so it makes me wonder. Our bodies were saved from sin by Christ's sacrifice and our new life in Him, and by faith in His ability and will to heal us we can be healed, so at what point do we go to the doctor?

Then what of health insurance? God's led me to not have any right now, (though He may indicate otherwise in the future,) and so I'm living on faith for my health. He told me just two weeks ago that I need to be flossing by a series of obvious coincidences. I did once, but haven't since. I see Him as my health insurance, also seeing as how I rely on Him for all of my finances. I figure that if He'll want me to go to the hospital He'll give me the money and then tell me to. If not He'll lead me to pray and give me the faith for a healing. I know full well that He'll do such things, (I'm not trying to debate that here.) But should all Christians ultimately, because of our available healing by faith, go without health insurance? I mean, God could certainly tell certain people He wants them to get it, as He's told me and others I know not to, but what of most of us?

I tend toward believing that if we have the faith for it we have no need of health insurance or medical assistance. We have the Great Physician, don't we? And He certainly is capable, and apparently willing also, to heal us. That is, of course, if we have the faith for it!

You can have Faith in God in that respect Kate but you are not being a Good Steward of your Life. It is like you work for Money and don't save anything. That is not being a good Steward with you Money! If you need Money for retirement then you have to save for that retirement!

Hope that Helps

I understand what you two are saying, though I obviously prefer Felgar's take on it! However, I've found, first from the Bible, then from biographies on great Christians of the past, and then finally from my own experience, that God does not care for us to, "use the brain He gave us," as so many like to tell me, but to use our faith in Him. "The just shall live by faith," not by our own stivings with our limited knowledge and ineffective power. God desires so much more for His Children. He desires to show them what only He can, and do for them only what He can. And all that to strengthen and deepen our relationship with Him. He wants us to ask for bread and let Him give it to us. I cannot stress the importance of this enough. God so greatly desires for us to understand Him in this way and to let Him work through us and for us in this way. He wants us to let Him be the Father He has promised He will!

I think Kateliz has the right slant on this issue, and I say that from similar experience with letting God provide. I never was very good at thinking my way through life, and it has been a lot better since I stopped trying to be my own director. There is such a hazy line between being responsible for yourself and taking over completely that it is better to err on the side of faith.

Health insurance can turn into a trap, the more you use it the more you need it. That doesn't leave much room for God's help, also the medical profession seems to be more scientific than religious.

Felgar wrote:

kateliz wrote:I tend toward believing that if we have the faith for it we have no need of health insurance or medical assistance. We have the Great Physician, don't we? And He certainly is capable, and apparently willing also, to heal us. That is, of course, if we have the faith for it!

Agreed. I believe that if we had enough faith we could be perfectly healthy. Yet also God provides in many ways. Why would God multiply the loaves and fishes to feed the people instead of just making them instantly full? Somewhere in there is a fine line between taking the help we're given and never doing anything within our God-given capabilities because we think we're acting on faith. I'll admit though, the pastor of the church I attended this morning said so many Christians are guilty of "practical atheism" and that did get me thinking. Sure we confess Jesus is Lord, but then completely ignore Him as we go about trying to survive and earn a living. Somewhere in the middle is reasonable I think...

That is a very Good Thought Felgar! After Re-reading I agree with what you are saying.

But our responsibities for ourselves must be within the realm of living and walking in faith. We must first of all rely on God and go to Him for His Will, and then we act in faith based on what He's communicated to us of His Will, letting Him be the power in our arm and the thought in our head.

He by no means wants us to stress out and worry about what we are to do or how we will get the power to do it. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills; all the earth is His and so is the knowlege of everything and the power to do anything. He wants us to tap into our divine supplies through Him, in faith, without fumbling about striving to do what we think is best in our own power.

God desperately craves for His Children to interact with Him in this way.

Oh, and also on health insurance, (or for that matter any insurance which you're not required by law to have,) the purpose of it is to have the assurance that things will be taken care of in case something happens. Well, if God tells one of His Children that He will be their insurance, then that's that. It's not a hazy issue. If God says that your money is better being spent on other things than being put away for an accident that'd happen later, than how's that being a bad steward? If you do not put so much a month or however often aside, but when the time comes you'll be given the amount or otherwise have your needs met, (your friend or relative fixes your car for free or cheaper,) then I'd say that is being the better steward.

Take my new alternater for an example. Since my dad's death a few years ago my siblings and I have been receiving Social Security. It just so happened that they stopped sending the checks about over a year ago because of bad management. No check came for nine months. When they finally started coming again we got a huge check for all that time, and my portion was to be $400. It so happened that the day after we got the check my battery light went on in my car, and I needed a new alternater, (along with a few other smaller things.) I believe it totaled at $300. Now, before that check came I didn't have anything close to that amount, (as I don't save because I trust God to meet my needs daily, or hourly, or by the second, Him having told me to do so.)

And what if I totaled my car and needed a new one with no money in my pocket and not believing in going into debt? (Whole 'nother topic!) Why I'd tell God that He gave me that car, He gave me the work to do with which I'd need a car, and so it'd be His problem/job to get me a new one! I'm in current need to take a stand of faith on my transmission that's getting worse and worse! I've let myself get worried over it, yet if I only went before Him once and spoke with Him like that I'd be able to stand on that kind of faith. In fact, I feel inspired to finally do that today. And we'll see how He provides after that.

Heck, last night I just got an answer to prayer about moving out, which I've been praying for lately specifically so that I wouldn't be put to shame by trusting God for my needs yet living at home paying Mommy $50 a month for rent! It's uncertain how that situation will end up like, but ya know, even if it's falls to pieces it still proves God's capable!

I've set my desires, (inspired by God or by sin,) on the idea of a cute, little house of my own with a certain look. With no money I have had confidence that if God so chooses He could hand over a little house like that in an instant. Someone could come to the door right now and I could be moving in tonight! I fully believe that. Or even Bill Gate's house! All's fair game when God owns everything and can do with it as He wills!

But, of course, He works everything to the good of those who love Him, and so He's not going to do something for us that's not for our growth.

There's a Christian Science program on public access TV that I sometimes watch.

It's easy to see how Mary Baker Eddy's beliefs grew out of the transcendental movement of the 1800's. Emerson could have written part of her book.

I find the program quite edifying at times as they read back and forth from the Bible and Eddy's "Science and Health". It's better than some of the other "self-help" books that are so popular among Christians today. I think she rediscovered some the concepts of the Modalists that were suppressed by the Early Church.

Some of the doctrine is NOT Scriptural, however. There was something in their program a coupla weeks ago that set off bells and whistles in my head, but I forget exactly what it was.