Evidence for God from Science

Just recently come back from Rome for my honeymoon and I have to say that it is an impressive city.

The churches however, although impressive did creep me out a little. I am not a catholic so this might be the reason - but I was slightly unnerved by the overwhelming adoration of Mary they openly displayed. Not just Mary though - they seem to worship their popes as well. The shrines to them are very grand, including having them laid out with death masks for people to light a candle to. In fact in one church the heart of a saint was on display for people to worship.

Now, please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't that sort of fall under Idol worship? And setting up Mary as a divine being - isn't that putting another god before God?

I hope I don't offend any catholics on this board - but I am really searching for an explanation really.

Having said all that I must say I did feel quite a spiritual feeling in the Church of Saint Paul where the actual tomb of Saint Paul lies. There is more certainty that that is the actual tomb of St Paul than the fact that St Peter holds the bones of St Peter himself. If this really is the tomb of Paul - then here lies a person who really did meet Christ.

On another note - if anyone does visit Rome I do recommend the Vatican Museums leading up to the Sistine Chapel and the Chapel itself, they really are something else.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

I shall do my best to answer your questions, although this may turn out to be a lengthly post.

but I was slightly unnerved by the overwhelming adoration of Mary they openly displayed. Not just Mary though - they seem to worship their popes as well.

First lets start with a definition of adoration and worship.

adoration: acts of divine worship that are directed to God only. (A Catholic Dictionary; Editor: Donald Attwater)

The Catholic Chruch condems adoration of Mary.
Now worship of mary is a little more complicated. According to the protestant definition of worship, we do not worship Mary, however...

Worship:the unique adoration and reverence paid to God, called latria: the word is sometimes used also for the honour paid to the saints (dulia), but this is better distinguished by some such word as "veneration."

Thus, we venerate and honour Mary.

veneration:the word commonly used to express in english that worship (hyperdulia, dulia) given to the saints either directly or through images or relics which is different in kind from the divine worship (adoration, latria) given to God only

Honour:the open recognition of anothers worth or dignity

Thus, we hounor Mary. Moving on, why we honour Mary.

Sort of works in a chain reaction
Christ commands us to honour our mothers and fathers. Thus, because Christ commited no fault. Christ honoured his mother. We imitate Christ. So, not only do we honour our own mothers, but we also honour who he honoured. He honoured Mary. We honour Mary. Catching on?

A better explanation...Quoting from Scott and Kimberly Hahns book "Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism"

Just remember two basic biblical principles. First, you know that, as a man, Christ fulfilled God's law perfectly, including the commandment to honor his father and mother. The hebrew word for honor, kaboda, literally means 'to glorify.' So Christ didn't just honor his heavenly father; he also perfectly honored his earthly mother, Mary, by bestowing his own divine glory upon her. The second principle is even easier: the imitation of Christ. So, we simply imitate Christ not just by honouring our own mothers but also by honoring whomever he homors - with the same honor he bestows.

I could go on and on quoting great books, unfortunatly, I have limited time on the computer and still much to cover.

In fact in one church the heart of a saint was on display for people to worship.

Were someone to worship (latria) the heart of a saint, or anyone but God, I, the Pope, and any faithful, devout and well informed catholic would be even more appalled then you.

And setting up Mary as a divine being - isn't that putting another god before God?

Sadly, a few Catholics do 'set Mary up as a divine being,' (though sometimes not intentionally) misunderstanding the catholic teaching. The Pope, the bible, the Church, etc condemn this form of worship. And it hurts and saddens Mary more than anyone.

I hope I don't offend any catholics on this board - but I am really searching for an explanation really.

Thank you for your questions. If you ever have anymore, PM me or ask here. Whatever works for you. And do not ever be afriad of offending me.

Blessings and Prayers,
Veronica

Thankyou Veronica

This does clear up a few matters. The honouring you Mother and father approach does sort of make sense. I understand where you are coming from with the concept of honour - for example I can certainly honour the teachings of Paul and Peter while worshipping Jesus.

I ask these questions because while in Rome, although beautiful, I was slightly unerved by the amount of pictures and scupltures and shrines to Mary that were present, far more than of our Lord. Your explanation certainly covers an opinion from an enlightened catholic but doesn't really address why Mary is placed is such a forefront on such a level. The coronation of Mary was also a prominent image that I saw in many of the art galleries and churches - the scene where Jesus Crowns Mary making her divine. This isn't even in the Bible (Not sure about the Catholic Bible mind)

I visted many of the Churches and a Galleries in Rome and Florence and I can say withou doubt that there were far more images of Mary than Jesus by a huge amount.

So even if what you say is true - it is still taken to a level close to idol worship. IMHO or course.

God Bless

Silvertusk

Silvertusk wrote:Thankyou Veronica

This does clear up a few matters. The honouring you Mother and father approach does sort of make sense. I understand where you are coming from with the concept of honour - for example I can certainly honour the teachings of Paul and Peter while worshipping Jesus.

I ask these questions because while in Rome, although beautiful, I was slightly unerved by the amount of pictures and scupltures and shrines to Mary that were present, far more than of our Lord. Your explanation certainly covers an opinion from an enlightened catholic but doesn't really address why Mary is placed is such a forefront on such a level. The coronation of Mary was also a prominent image that I saw in many of the art galleries and churches - the scene where Jesus Crowns Mary making her divine. This isn't even in the Bible (Not sure about the Catholic Bible mind)

I visted many of the Churches and a Galleries in Rome and Florence and I can say withou doubt that there were far more images of Mary than Jesus by a huge amount.

So even if what you say is true - it is still taken to a level close to idol worship. IMHO or course.

God Bless

Silvertusk

I've discussed this topic many times in a different forum so here are my 2 cents, but before, just keep in mind one thing which is true to any Christian (Catholic or otherwise). We all believe in one God, his son Jesus Christ and the Holly Spirit. Jesus died on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins and was resurrected so we can have eternal salvation. That is the unshakable truth of christianity. Anything beyond that realm is moot as it is mired in tradition (and I don't mean Traditions which are the Apostles' oral teachings).

In any case, going to the topic at hand, the basic truth is that Catholics do not worship Mary (or the saints, for that matter), although it certainly appears so to the uninitiated (mainly Protestants who do not believe in such practices or traditions). The fact that you saw far more pictures of Mary than of Jesus doesn't really mean anything in and of itself. You will see far, far more Catholics wearing a crucifix than a picture of Mary.

Catholics regard Mary and the saints as intercessors with God as they do have a special relationship with God. Now Protestants on the other hand, argue that nowhere in the Bible does it say that the dead can hear our prayers, much less intercede with God on our behalf. They would also argue that such a practice is tantamount to necromancy, which is forbidden by the Bible.

The disagreement always comes down to these 2 premises to which my reply has always been that, while the Bible forbids the conjuring of spirits of the dead, its does not expressly forbid the praying to the living, in fact it is greatly encouraged and there are ample examples of that in both the old and new testaments.

Now, since Catholics firmly believe that Mary and the saints are very much alive in Christ, therefore asking Mary and the saints to pray for us and intercede on our behalf, is neither necromancy nor contradictory to the Bible in any way, shape or form.

In a nutshell, Catholics believe Mary and the saints are alive in heaven, and because of their closeness to Christ and to God, they can intercede for us, and so it is ok as far as the Bible is concerned.

Protestants, on the other hand, do not believe Mary and saints are alive and sending them their prayers contradicts the Bible, and that is also ok, as far as the Bible is concerned.

I hope this clears it up.

Thankyou

That does make sense

However, and maybe again this is a more protestant view - but why do you need saints to interceed for us. Jesus taught us that you can pray directly to God.

Also that still doesn't address the matter of the coronation of Mary - where is that mentioned in the Bible?

Thankyou for taking the time to answer these questions.

God Bless

Silvertusk

As I'm short of time, I'll just post a link from a article.

Silvertusk wrote: However, and maybe again this is a more protestant view - but why do you need saints to interceed for us. Jesus taught us that you can pray directly to God.

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/a ... p0151.html

If you don't have time to read it, let me know and I'll quote the highlights.

Silvertusk wrote:Also that still doesn't address the matter of the coronation of Mary - where is that mentioned in the Bible?

"In the monarchy of King David, as well as in other ancient kingdoms of the Near East, the mother of the ruling king held an important office in the royal court and played a key part in the process of dynastic succession. In fact, the king's mother ruled as queen, not his wife." << http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying ... Saints.asp

Blessings and Prayers,
Veronica

I just read through most of that article. What it says does make sense, though it would take much more time than I have to verify that no scripture was taken out of context.

What I'm learning more and more is this: That Catholicism IS Christianity; but only Catholicism in its pure form. The Catholics who are truly grounded in Christ do understand and believe in the same salvation by Grace through Faith.

What seems to happen though, is that common stereotype alters our perception of Catholic belief and tradition (like asking Priests for forgiveness), and also there seem to be an overwhelming portion of Catholics that are way off track and don't actually know what their church teaches. And esspecially for the guidance of its believers, the Catholic Church itself must take a large portion of the blame. My feeling is that such lack of guidance is a direct result of such heavy reliance on tradition and not enough emphasis on Jesus; in effect, the result is often a duplication of what we saw with the Pharisees of Jesus' time.

Felgar wrote:What I'm learning more and more is this: That Catholicism IS Christianity;

Absolutely. We certainly do regard ourselves as Christians.

but only Catholicism in its pure form. The Catholics who are truly grounded in Christ do understand and believe in the same salvation by Grace through Faith.

Not sure what you mean by purest form. Are there any impure forms of Catholisim? I don't think so. There are, however, impure catholics just as there are impure Protestants or impure whatever.

What seems to happen though, is that common stereotype alters our perception of Catholic belief and tradition (like asking Priests for forgiveness)

That is not a stereotype but rather a religious practice. There's absolutely nothing preventing us from confessing our sins directly to God and I often do. As to why we do it, well let me answer with a question: why not?

, and also there seem to be an overwhelming portion of Catholics that are way off track and don't actually know what their church teaches.

According to whom? You see those things from a non-Catholic eye but if you are not Catholic (or extremely knowledgeable about Catholisim) you would not be able to judge fairly.

And esspecially for the guidance of its believers, the Catholic Church itself must take a large portion of the blame. My feeling is that such lack of guidance is a direct result of such heavy reliance on tradition and not enough emphasis on Jesus; in effect, the result is often a duplication of what we saw with the Pharisees of Jesus' time.

I totally disagree with you. Going back in history to the early years after the resurrection and for hundreds of years to follow, the only body to keep a tight grip on the new testament was the church. If it weren't for the church's efforts to weed through the different false gospels, Christianity would not be the same today. If this is not guidance, I don't know what is. In addition, when you mention tradition I assume you mean Traditions (which are the oral teachings of the disciples) rather than mere societal traditions. Those are the Traditions the church uses in conjunction with the Bible.

Besides, which would you prefer interpreting the Bible? The church that was established by Jesus himself and has numerous scholars to research linguistic nuances in an effort to come up with as close an interpretation as possible? Or would you rather interpret the Bible yourself (and which version)? Now you might say I'm more than capable of understanding it on my own with the help of the Holy Spirit, which is quite fine. But what happens when 2 people (or 2 million) each one of whom arrives at a different interpretation? Who's right and who is wrong? And more importantly, who decides?

What I'm trying to show with the above argument is that, to an outsider, things look much differently than to a person who practices the faith. There certainly are differences between Protestants and Catholics and at times they seem insurmountable. But what they do not change is the fact that we are all united in Christ.

Byblos wrote:That is not a stereotype but rather a religious practice. There's absolutely nothing preventing us from confessing our sins directly to God and I often do. As to why we do it, well let me answer with a question: why not?

I'm referring to the moments in the booth, typically precluded by "Forgive me father, for I have sinned." Why not do it? Because it's Jesus who forgives sins, not your priest. Unless you sinned against the priest himself, then you're asking the wrong person! The danger is that an immature believer may never understand the need to to confess and repent of the sin to God himself.

Byblos wrote:In addition, when you mention tradition I assume you mean Traditions (which are the oral teachings of the disciples) rather than mere societal traditions. Those are the Traditions the church uses in conjunction with the Bible.

What I mean by traditions are the rituals that pervade the Catholic church. Hail Mary's, penance, confession, and even the elaborate atire. The problem is not even that they are entirely unscriptural (because many are founded in scripture) - the problem is that they detract from the message of the Gospel and (in my opinion) can be the very thing that lead people away from Faith in Jesus.

And that's what I mean about 'pure form.' Catholics believe in the same Gospel of Jesus that protestants do, and if it gets right down to it our core beliefs match. But it's the "Religion" surrounding that faith that can (and often has) become mired in legalism, corruption, and greed. So my complaint against the Catholic church is that it emphases that tradition and religion, while all but ignoring the foundation of the faith which is Jesus.

Now I know you'll say that I don't understand the church and my observation of what it teaches is incorrect. And maybe that's fair, but it is based on the relationships that I've had with those who profess to be Catholic. Even if it's not completely fair, it is grounded on actual observation.

Felgar wrote:

Byblos wrote:That is not a stereotype but rather a religious practice. There's absolutely nothing preventing us from confessing our sins directly to God and I often do. As to why we do it, well let me answer with a question: why not?

I'm referring to the moments in the booth, typically precluded by "Forgive me father, for I have sinned." Why not do it? Because it's Jesus who forgives sins, not your priest. Unless you sinned against the priest himself, then you're asking the wrong person! The danger is that an immature believer may never understand the need to to confess and repent of the sin to God himself.

And there lies the most common misconception. We do not confess our sins to the priest we confess our sins to Jesus through the priest. As you said only God can forgive our sins and that is what we believe. Any 'immature' Catholic will tell you that. For the same reason we can ask our fellow Christians to pray for us, we can ask the priest to intercede on our behalf with Christ for the forgiven of our sins. Why do we feel the need to have someone intercede on our behalf? For the same reason we ask others to pray for us; because we need help. Otherwise what is the point of asking others to pray for us? we can just as well pray for Jesus and ask of no one else to do so. Why do you feel the need to ask others to pray for you? It is the same thing.

Byblos wrote:In addition, when you mention tradition I assume you mean Traditions (which are the oral teachings of the disciples) rather than mere societal traditions. Those are the Traditions the church uses in conjunction with the Bible.

What I mean by traditions are the rituals that pervade the Catholic church. Hail Mary's, penance, confession, and even the elaborate atire. The problem is not even that they are entirely unscriptural (because many are founded in scripture) - the problem is that they detract from the message of the Gospel and (in my opinion) can be the very thing that lead people away from Faith in Jesus. And that's what I mean about 'pure form'. [/quote]

I see what you mean by tradition but those hardly detract from Jesus. Quite the contrary most are specifically designed to glorify him. But then again, those are mere practices rather than fundamental differences.

Catholics believe in the same Gospel of Jesus that protestants do, and if it gets right down to it our core beliefs match. But it's the "Religion" surrounding that faith that can (and often has) become mired in legalism, corruption, and greed. So my complaint against the Catholic church is that it emphases that tradition and religion, while all but ignoring the foundation of the faith which is Jesus.

While I agree that certain aspects of the church have gone awry over the years but that is to be expected with such a gigantic organization that tends to over a billion people. But to say that the church is ignoring the foundation of the faith is grossly inaccurate.

Now I know you'll say that I don't understand the church and my observation of what it teaches is incorrect. And maybe that's fair, but it is based on the relationships that I've had with those who profess to be Catholic. Even if it's not completely fair, it is grounded on actual observation.

I am not doubting that what you said is what you believe nor that you have observed it. But personal observation is hardly a testament (or lack thereof) of the faith of a billion people. My objection is to the blanket statements about the church and the stereotypical generalization about Catholics. How many branches of Protestantism are there? Do they all agree on the interpretation of the Bible? If yes, why are there so many of them then?

There have been great many misconceptions between Protestants and Catholics over the years and my aim is not to dispell all of them as I realize that is a daunting task. But whatever I can do to clear up some of them I feel it is my duty to do so, particularly to my fellow Christians.

Byblos wrote:
And there lies the most common misconception. We do not confess our sins to the priest we confess our sins to Jesus through the priest.

Right, I agree. And I draw you back to my original statement that the church suffers from stereotypes and misconceptions:

Felgar wrote:What seems to happen though, is that common stereotype alters our perception of Catholic belief and tradition (like asking Priests for forgiveness), and also there seem to be an overwhelming portion of Catholics that are way off track and don't actually know what their church teaches.

Now to the extent that members of the church tend to be off-track and unaware of Catholic doctrine, I'm sure we can chalk it up so simple differences of perception, of which I can agree that mine is likely less accurate than yours.