Evidence for God from Science

Hello, I'm new to the board and have a question regarding the Revelations scripture. I am referring to Revelations 11:8

" And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."

I am wondering why this says that our Lord was crucified in Sodom/Egypt?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt

Those names are not the literal locations...I am definately no expert, but it could be a reference to how horrible the place is...the people of the place (Jerusalem I'm guessing?) will be practicing all manner of sin, while keeping the Jews under their thumb.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt

Those names are not the literal locations...I am definately no expert, but it could be a reference to how horrible the place is...the people of the place (Jerusalem I'm guessing?) will be practicing all manner of sin, while keeping the Jews under their thumb.

hmm, so you think this verse may be referring to Jerusalem? (or, am I misunderstanding you?) I have also tried that theory in my research and could find nothing that indicates where Sodom/Egypt was compared to Jerusalem in any form.

I find it interesting that the word "spiritually" is used in the verse of Revelations 11:8. What could this mean? We know that Matthew spoke about Mary and Joseph having to flee to Egypt with Jesus to escape the slaughter of Herod so I am assuming that Egypt did exist in the literal sense. What I do find confusing is that Luke or Mark (for that matter) never mentions this event.

Of course Revelations is referring to future events, but it speaks about the cucification of our Lord as a past event.

I am completely confused. Thanks for your answer.

Hopefortruth wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt

Those names are not the literal locations...I am definately no expert, but it could be a reference to how horrible the place is...the people of the place (Jerusalem I'm guessing?) will be practicing all manner of sin, while keeping the Jews under their thumb.

hmm, so you think this verse may be referring to Jerusalem? (or, am I misunderstanding you?) I have also tried that theory in my research and could find nothing that indicates where Sodom/Egypt was compared to Jerusalem in any form.

I find it interesting that the word "spiritually" is used in the verse of Revelations 11:8. What could this mean? We know that Matthew spoke about Mary and Joseph having to flee to Egypt with Jesus to escape the slaughter of Herod so I am assuming that Egypt did exist in the literal sense. What I do find confusing is that Luke or Mark (for that matter) never mentions this event.

Of course Revelations is referring to future events, but it speaks about the cucification of our Lord as a past event.

I am completely confused. Thanks for your answer.

It is compared to Egypt because Israel is not free. It is compared to Sodom because people are not living under God's covenant. The "great city" is Jeruselum.

The Great Whore is Jerusalem.

1.) THE IMAGE OF THE UNFAITHFUL WIFE, THE HARLOT, WAS OFTEN USED OF ISRAEL IN THE OT. Israel is repeatedly called the wife of God (Jer. 2:2, 3:14, Is. 54:5). But she was an unfaithful wife (Jer. 3:20, Hos. 1:2, Ez. 6:9, Ez. 16, Is. 50:1) behaving as a prostitute (Jer. 3:1-2). In the context of Jerusalem's designation as a prostitute, Is. 1:21 is especially noteworthy: "See how the faithful city has become a harlot.“ (Ezekiel Chapters 16 and 23 give a disgusting description of Israel's Harlotry. You will want to avoid reading these chapters to your kids until you are ready to explain some things to them.)

2.) SHE IS THE "GREAT CITY” Rev. 17:18 . I believe that this is the same great city “which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8) This is clearly talking about Jerusalem. Our Lord was not crucified in Sodom, Egypt, or Babylon. He was crucified in Jerusalem.

3.) SHE FILLS HERSELF WITH THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS AND SAINTS (Rev. 17:6)

Matthew 23:37 — “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee”

Acts 7:52 — “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:”

Herod Agrippa — Ruled Jerusalem from 37 — 44 AD. Close friend of the Roman Emperor Caligula.
•   Arranged the murder of the apostle James
•   Imprisoned Peter with plans to execute him
•   Allowed the people to praise him as a god

4. HER ARRAY AND CLOTHING (Rev. 17:4)4.) Dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones and pearls (Rev. 17:3-5) - an almost exact description of the high priest's ephod (Ex. 28:5-6, 36) This combination of fabrics and gems also describes the temple tapestry, which, according to Josephus, was "Babylonian tapestry in which blue, purple, scarlet and linen were mingled." (Wars 5.5.4)

The gold cup she holds (Rev. 17:4) is symbolic of the temple's implements: "The greatest part of the vessels ... were of silver and gold" (Wars 5.4.4.)

Josephus' description of the temple reflects the same opulence: "The outward face of the temple in its front ... was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun's own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow; for, as to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceeding white." (Wars 5.5.6) The inscription on the prostitute's forehead is a perverse image of that on the high priest's: "Holy to the Lord.“

Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Jeremiah 4:30
And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

5.) HER DESTRUCTION BY THE BEAST - In other threads, I've already identified the great beast as the Roman Empire (Daniel 7;23) EVEN JERUSALEM'S END RESEMBLES THAT OF AN ADULTEROUS WIFE - DEATH BY STONING: Josephus writes: "The stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5.6.3) This account is reminiscent of hailstones, weighing a talent each, that rain down on the "great city" in Rev. 16:19-21.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:It is compared to Egypt because Israel is not free. It is compared to Sodom because people are not living under God's covenant. The "great city" is Jeruselum.

That's a nice insight, especially for a non-Christian...

Kurieuo

Kurieuo wrote:

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:It is compared to Egypt because Israel is not free. It is compared to Sodom because people are not living under God's covenant. The "great city" is Jeruselum.

That's a nice insight, especially for a non-Christian...

Kurieuo

Thanks Kurieuo
=)

puritan lad wrote:The Great Whore is Jerusalem.

1.) THE IMAGE OF THE UNFAITHFUL WIFE, THE HARLOT, WAS OFTEN USED OF ISRAEL IN THE OT. Israel is repeatedly called the wife of God (Jer. 2:2, 3:14, Is. 54:5). But she was an unfaithful wife (Jer. 3:20, Hos. 1:2, Ez. 6:9, Ez. 16, Is. 50:1) behaving as a prostitute (Jer. 3:1-2). In the context of Jerusalem's designation as a prostitute, Is. 1:21 is especially noteworthy: "See how the faithful city has become a harlot.“ (Ezekiel Chapters 16 and 23 give a disgusting description of Israel's Harlotry. You will want to avoid reading these chapters to your kids until you are ready to explain some things to them.)

2.) SHE IS THE "GREAT CITY” Rev. 17:18 . I believe that this is the same great city “which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev. 11:8) This is clearly talking about Jerusalem. Our Lord was not crucified in Sodom, Egypt, or Babylon. He was crucified in Jerusalem.

3.) SHE FILLS HERSELF WITH THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS AND SAINTS (Rev. 17:6)

Matthew 23:37 — “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee”

Acts 7:52 — “Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:”

Herod Agrippa — Ruled Jerusalem from 37 — 44 AD. Close friend of the Roman Emperor Caligula.
•  Arranged the murder of the apostle James
•  Imprisoned Peter with plans to execute him
•  Allowed the people to praise him as a god

4. HER ARRAY AND CLOTHING (Rev. 17:4)4.) Dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones and pearls (Rev. 17:3-5) - an almost exact description of the high priest's ephod (Ex. 28:5-6, 36) This combination of fabrics and gems also describes the temple tapestry, which, according to Josephus, was "Babylonian tapestry in which blue, purple, scarlet and linen were mingled." (Wars 5.5.4)

The gold cup she holds (Rev. 17:4) is symbolic of the temple's implements: "The greatest part of the vessels ... were of silver and gold" (Wars 5.4.4.)

Josephus' description of the temple reflects the same opulence: "The outward face of the temple in its front ... was covered all over with plates of gold of great weight, and at the first rising of the sun, reflected back a very fiery splendor, and made those who forced themselves to look upon it to turn their eyes away, just as they would have done at the sun's own rays. But this temple appeared to strangers, when they were at a distance, like a mountain covered with snow; for, as to those parts of it that were not gilt, they were exceeding white." (Wars 5.5.6) The inscription on the prostitute's forehead is a perverse image of that on the high priest's: "Holy to the Lord.“

Jeremiah 4:14
O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

Jeremiah 4:30
And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

5.) HER DESTRUCTION BY THE BEAST - In other threads, I've already identified the great beast as the Roman Empire (Daniel 7;23) EVEN JERUSALEM'S END RESEMBLES THAT OF AN ADULTEROUS WIFE - DEATH BY STONING: Josephus writes: "The stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was a white color" (Wars 5.6.3) This account is reminiscent of hailstones, weighing a talent each, that rain down on the "great city" in Rev. 16:19-21.

1) I have read Ezekial (many times). My understanding of this book (and others that use Parables) is that it is referring to man kind in general. If you are referring to just the people of Israel, then these versus seem to contradict each other.

Ezekial (OT) 20:23 I lifted up my hand also unto them in the wilderness, that I would scatter them among the nations, and disperse them through the countries;20:24 because they performed not mine ordinances, and rejected my statutes, and profaned my sabbaths, and their eyes were after their fathers' idols.

Ezekial 20:16 "Because they despised my judgments, and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths: for their heart went after their idols."

Exodus (OT) 24:3 And Moses came and told the people all the words of Jehovah, and all the judgments; and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!

2) I know that it is written that Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem. But, Revelations 11:8 is not "clearly" referring to Jerusalem.....at least not to me.

Exodus (OT) 23:9 And the stranger thou shalt not oppress; for ye know the spirit of the stranger, for ye have been strangers in the land of Egypt.


3) Speaking of Herod, I just can't seem to grasp the thought that if he ordered the slaughter of all the male newborns in the land when Jesus was born, then why is there no written account of such a travesty occurring......anywhere?

4-5) According to the following, I believe it describes the Ark of the Covenant, which by the way seems to list most of the items in your posts as well.

Exodus (OT) 25:1 And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me a heave-offering: of every one whose heart prompteth him, ye shall take my heave-offering. 3 And this is the heave-offering that ye shall take of them: gold, and silver, and copper, 4 and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and byssus, and goats' [hair], 5 and rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins; and acacia-wood; 6 oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil, and for the incense of fragrant drugs; 7 onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate. 8 And they shall make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I shall shew thee, the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the utensils thereof, even so shall ye make [it]. 10 And they shall make an ark of acacia-wood; two cubits and a half the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold: inside and outside shalt thou overlay it; and shalt make upon it a border of gold round about. 12 And cast four rings of gold for it, and put [them] at the four corners thereof, that two rings may be upon the one side thereof and two rings upon the other side thereof.

Finally, I leave you with one of my favorite passages.

Luke (NT) 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

I tried one reply. Apparently it was too long, so I'll try again.

How would you deal with the temple in Rev. 11:1-2? Which other city could it be referring to? Consider Isaiah's description of Israel in his day.

Isaiah 1:7-10
"Your country is desolate, Your cities are burned with fire; Strangers devour your land in your presence; And it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. So the daughter of Zion is left as a booth in a vineyard, As a hut in a garden of cucumbers, As a besieged city. Unless the LORD of hosts Had left to us a very small remnant, We would have become like Sodom, We would have been made like Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to the law of our God, You people of Gomorrah:"

Isaiah referred to Israel as Sodom, and as a harlot (verse 21).

While you are correct in the description of the ark, the Bible plainly teaches that it is a "city". It is the "the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified". It is the city where the temple is standing. All clues point directly to Jerusalem.

Hopefortruth wrote:3) Speaking of Herod, I just can't seem to grasp the thought that if he ordered the slaughter of all the male newborns in the land when Jesus was born, then why is there no written account of such a travesty occurring......anywhere?

Mathew perhaps was trying to build a parallel with Moses and Egypt. The deliverer persecuted from birth.
But there not being other accounts does not negate or falsify the claim.

Can someone please tell me why my original post is now linked to Revelations in the NIV of the Bible? this version reads different than what I originally quoted.

11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

As you can see "spiritually" has been replaced with "figuratively".

My question was from the King James Version of the Bible, and was readily available from the BibleGateway.com web site that linked the NIV version.

Hopefortruth wrote:Can someone please tell me why my original post is now linked to Revelations in the NIV of the Bible? this version reads different than what I originally quoted.

11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

As you can see "spiritually" has been replaced with "figuratively".

My question was from the King James Version of the Bible, and was readily available from the BibleGateway.com web site that linked the NIV version.

Click on your profile
Then scroll all the way down, and change your Bible type from NIV to whatever you like.
=)

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Hopefortruth wrote:Can someone please tell me why my original post is now linked to Revelations in the NIV of the Bible? this version reads different than what I originally quoted.

11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

As you can see "spiritually" has been replaced with "figuratively".

My question was from the King James Version of the Bible, and was readily available from the BibleGateway.com web site that linked the NIV version.

Click on your profile
Then scroll all the way down, and change your Bible type from NIV to whatever you like.
=)

That Bible option doesn't work, it is by default ALWAYS NIV, it can't be changed no matter how much you tinker with it, at least not on my account.

Hopefortruth wrote: Speaking of Herod, I just can't seem to grasp the thought that if he ordered the slaughter of all the male newborns in the land when Jesus was born, then why is there no written account of such a travesty occurring......anywhere?

Matthew 2:16 - Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.

I think that the scripture in REvelations is simply saying that the wickedness of JEruselem in that day is like the wickedness that was in the other cities. Just my take.

puritan lad wrote:The Great Whore is Jerusalem.

You and I really need to talk about your Praeterism.