Evidence for God from Science

I recently came across a page (Why I Don't Go To Church Anymore!), and it got me thinking it might be a good topic to start up. What do people here generally believe the Church to be, and what is your general reaction to this article?

Kurieuo.

Thats a tough one for an introvert like me - It takes a bit of effort to get involved in fellowship. In the end I end up blessed and I get a chance to bless others.

It gives Christians a sense of unity, belonging and hope - this may become more apparent in an environment of persecution, rather than a self-sufficient western society. I guess here its more of emotional dependency, rather then financial. Well, 1 Corinthians 12 indicates that its not right for a member to function independent of the body.

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If Christ made it his custom to attend the synagogue weekly, how much more must we need to do the same? (Luke 4:16)

Mark 2:27, 28 NIV wrote:Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Since creation there has been a day set aside for God and the only day God made holy. I believe it is as Paul says,

Romans 3:31 NIV wrote:Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

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Funny . . . I kept expecting Mr. Jacobsen to reference some Scriptures supporting his view. I mean, I can think of one off the top of my head. In John 4, Jesus tells to woman at the well that a time was coming when people would not worship God only at the temple, but "in spirit and in truth." This was in response to her question regarding where the appropriate place of worship is.

As it stands, it seems more like he's defending himself against various arguments as to why he should go to church, as if that justifies not going.

All that said, I take my argument from Hebrews 10:25.

KJV wrote:Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

You also get into the concept of elders being appointed in each church . . . we know that "the Church at Jerusalem" wasn't a single church, but a collection of house churches that each had their own elder. That in and of itself disproves Jacobsen's view that the Bible never considers the Church an institution. Don't get me wrong--it obviously is much more than that. But, if the Christian is not expected to go to Church, then why did God appoint some as teachers and pastors? What is a pastor? We know he is a shepherd, so are we to assume that some Christians don't need to be shepherded? But wouldn't that leave them outside Jesus command to Peter to "Feed my sheep"? John 21:16-17 I mean, you either are a sheep or you aren't, and if you are a sheep, you need a shepherd. Jesus, in that passage alone, validates the role of pastors.

So, yeah . . . every Christian should be in a local church. Why? Because the Bible says so

A church can be a great asset and can help strengthen one's faith, but ultimately fellowship with God is most important. Jesus said make God your only Rabbi(sp?) and although I myself will come to be involved in a church again in the future, I feel whats most important is loving the Lord and going to church is really up to the person. I do believe in what you said Jac, but some people who go to church don't take time out to actually read scripture on their own! Not to mention some actually find church to be boring, there are over-looked porblems

I do agree with Jac...

We as Christians do need to go to Church.

What about Matt.16:17. Jesus said that He will build His church - and in :18 He gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Surely there is more to church than just attending or not. Not so?

BrotherT wrote:I do agree with Jac...

We as Christians do need to go to Church.

What about Matt.16:17. Jesus said that He will build His church - and in :18 He gave Peter the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Surely there is more to church than just attending or not. Not so?

However that Scripture is about the Kingdom Church not the Building. Is it not written as well 2 or more gathered together Christ is in the Midst? If that is so is that not a Church as well?

Church was created for what? Fellowship!!!

What is the purpose of Fellowship???

the church is a group of believers who get together in praise and worship God. When we read and take into our hearts the words in the bible then we are worshiping god. When we live by the steps god set in place for us then we are worshiping and praising god.
The church is not the building, it is the congregation, it can meet in a park, at the beach, in someones living room.
if you mean we as christians need to praise and worship god by having fellowship with our fellow christens then that is correct.
Learning someone elses take on the word of god is always helpful to come to an understanding of what the word means. it is important that each of us understands the word of god truly in our hearts, and not just takes someone elses understanding as our own.

btw please pray for me, I seem to have strayed off the path and am having trouble getting back.

The best description of the church that I have seen is "the community of believers". I believe that it is referring to the shared experience of christianity on the part of all believers, this creates a community that is as yet only partially realized on earth. It transcends doctrinal and political divisions that currently exist, thus I would say that there are no individual churches, there is only the one universal [catholic] church.

As for individual participation in collective worship I agree with those who say it is desirable and necessary.

Don't forget that we're members of a Body, and as members we must stay connected to function properly! How can God move His Body effectively if it's members are disconnected and off doing their own thing on their own, not communicating with each other as the Bible teaches us we need to do? We are supposed to be connected to each other. The foot must get word from the eye, as well as the hand, and the arm must help it move as well! Who's the bowels? J/K Sorry, had to. Once you're in a Spirit-led "church" you see quite obviously how it's necessary to meet regularly, though it's not terrible to miss. I myself have to go because each time nearly the whole sermon is for me! Always on the mark! God speaks to me through my pastor, as well as the others there. We all work together to coming toward a common vision and understanding.

People make up the "church", what ever building you are in or not in. Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Church is not a building.

You do not ever have to go to a church building to worship, you can worship where ever you want. A lot of churches today keep so many man made traditions that the truth has actually been clouded, and the Pastor really does not teach the Bible. The word Pastor in the Hebrew language is ra `ah, meaning to pasture, tend, graze, feed, to shepherd, to teach. What did Christ say in John 21:16? Feed my sheep. The word Pastor comes from pasture, where the sheep are fed.

As long as there are Christians in Church it will be imperfect.

Church doesn't save us.

For me it is an obedience issue. We're commanded not to forsake the gathering together. Further, the Church is God's chosen organism, or organization to help in our discipleship, discipline and as importantly, for us to use our gifts. I Corinthians 12 - 14 seems to imply that gifts are given through individuals, not for their sole edification but also for the benefit of the entire body. Fail to be part of a local body and it begs the question as to how serious we are about being obedient. It also robs those in the body whom God may have intended to benefit from the gifts He has given us specifically for their edification.

Our western culture has become so centered around the individual that we've lost something that really is Biblical and part of how God made us. We need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. Not just for what we get but also so we experience the joy of service and ministering to others. There are seasons in life for all of us where that is different in degrees and we aren't always able to know when that might be.

I've received some of my greatest blessings in Church. Unfortunately, I've also received some of my deepest wounds. I understand the fear at times. Believe me. But I still go and I still participate. It's an obedience thing. God wants me there for a reason and the reason is not always, and in fact is quite often something far bigger than just me.

Canuckster1127
wrote:
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As long as there are Christians in Church it will be imperfect.

Church doesn't save us.

For me it is an obedience issue. We're commanded not to forsake the gathering together. Further, the Church is God's chosen organism, or organization to help in our discipleship, discipline and as importantly, for us to use our gifts.

*************************
Did you know that the word "church" is not in the Bible? The words translated "church" mean "assembly" and no particular kind of assembly. King James commanded his interpreters to change the word to church instead of the correct word, assembly.
In the time of the Roman occupation of Israel, there were only 2 allowable religions. One was the Roman pagan worship with mandatory worship of Caesar as a god and Judaism with Temple worship, sacrifices and Sabbath observance in synogogues. It was a crime to worship in any other than one these two ways within the Roman Empire.
There was no organized Sunday worship of Chrestianos.
The religion of Yeshua was the religion of the Creator of Heaven and earth. The Scripture they used said that YHVH said to keep the Sabbath from friday at sundown to saturday at sunset. They were commanded to assemble together on that day that God Almighty at creation said was Holy. It was the only thing in all creation He declared Holy. And He never said it was no longer Holy.
There are few "churches" that keep it Holy.
Ruth
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I Corinthians 12 - 14 seems to imply that gifts are given through individuals, not for their sole edification but also for the benefit of the entire body. Fail to be part of a local body and it begs the question as to how serious we are about being obedient. It also robs those in the body whom God may have intended to benefit from the gifts He has given us specifically for their edification.

Our western culture has become so centered around the individual that we've lost something that really is Biblical
***************************

But the "church" is not Biblical.
Ruth

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and part of how God made us. We need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. Not just for what we get but also so we experience the joy of service and ministering to others. There are seasons in life for all of us where that is different in degrees and we aren't always able to know when that might be.

*******************************
Yeshua was with YHVH and the Holy Spirit at Creation and at the giving of the MC Law. At Creation They created the Holy 7th Day Sabbath, and the appointed times and seasons. In the MC Law, They elaborated on those times and seasons that are ordained by Them.
Daniel says the anti-christ will seek to change the times and seasons of God.
Ruth
*********************************



I've received some of my greatest blessings in Church. Unfortunately, I've also received some of my deepest wounds. I understand the fear at times. Believe me. But I still go and I still participate. It's an obedience thing. God wants me there for a reason and the reason is not always, and in fact is quite often something far bigger than just me.
******************************


Paul said the reason that the gentiles were grafted into the Jewish olive tree was to make the Jews jealous and bring them to salvation. Rom.11:11. That's the purpose for your life.
If your "church" is not bringing Jews to salvation, it is not doing it's mandated work.
Does your "church" worship the Jewish Messiah and the King of the Jews?
Does your "Church" ever mention the Son of David or the Holy City where He will reign when He returns?
Would a Jewish person recognize His Jewish Messiah in your "church"?
Has you "church" changed His Sacred Name from Yeshua, YHVH saves, to a Greek name no Jew would believe is the One God, YHVH, that Zech.14 says will return to Jerusalem.
And when He returns the whole world will go up to Jerusalem to worship the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, Sukkot, the Feast of Booths.
Is your "church" celebrating it yet?
Ruth

ruth wrote:Canuckster1127
wrote:
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As long as there are Christians in Church it will be imperfect.

Church doesn't save us.

For me it is an obedience issue. We're commanded not to forsake the gathering together. Further, the Church is God's chosen organism, or organization to help in our discipleship, discipline and as importantly, for us to use our gifts.

*************************
Did you know that the word "church" is not in the Bible? The words translated "church" mean "assembly" and no particular kind of assembly. King James commanded his interpreters to change the word to church instead of the correct word, assembly.
In the time of the Roman occupation of Israel, there were only 2 allowable religions. One was the Roman pagan worship with mandatory worship of Caesar as a god and Judaism with Temple worship, sacrifices and Sabbath observance in synogogues. It was a crime to worship in any other than one these two ways within the Roman Empire.
There was no organized Sunday worship of Chrestianos.
The religion of Yeshua was the religion of the Creator of Heaven and earth. The Scripture they used said that YHVH said to keep the Sabbath from friday at sundown to saturday at sunset. They were commanded to assemble together on that day that God Almighty at creation said was Holy. It was the only thing in all creation He declared Holy. And He never said it was no longer Holy.
There are few "churches" that keep it Holy.
Ruth
******************************************




I Corinthians 12 - 14 seems to imply that gifts are given through individuals, not for their sole edification but also for the benefit of the entire body. Fail to be part of a local body and it begs the question as to how serious we are about being obedient. It also robs those in the body whom God may have intended to benefit from the gifts He has given us specifically for their edification.

Our western culture has become so centered around the individual that we've lost something that really is Biblical
***************************

But the "church" is not Biblical.
Ruth

********************************
and part of how God made us. We need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. Not just for what we get but also so we experience the joy of service and ministering to others. There are seasons in life for all of us where that is different in degrees and we aren't always able to know when that might be.

*******************************
Yeshua was with YHVH and the Holy Spirit at Creation and at the giving of the MC Law. At Creation They created the Holy 7th Day Sabbath, and the appointed times and seasons. In the MC Law, They elaborated on those times and seasons that are ordained by Them.
Daniel says the anti-christ will seek to change the times and seasons of God.
Ruth
*********************************



I've received some of my greatest blessings in Church. Unfortunately, I've also received some of my deepest wounds. I understand the fear at times. Believe me. But I still go and I still participate. It's an obedience thing. God wants me there for a reason and the reason is not always, and in fact is quite often something far bigger than just me.
******************************


Paul said the reason that the gentiles were grafted into the Jewish olive tree was to make the Jews jealous and bring them to salvation. Rom.11:11. That's the purpose for your life.
If your "church" is not bringing Jews to salvation, it is not doing it's mandated work.
Does your "church" worship the Jewish Messiah and the King of the Jews?
Does your "Church" ever mention the Son of David or the Holy City where He will reign when He returns?
Would a Jewish person recognize His Jewish Messiah in your "church"?
Has you "church" changed His Sacred Name from Yeshua, YHVH saves, to a Greek name no Jew would believe is the One God, YHVH, that Zech.14 says will return to Jerusalem.
And when He returns the whole world will go up to Jerusalem to worship the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles, Sukkot, the Feast of Booths.
Is your "church" celebrating it yet?
Ruth

Nice to meet you Ruth.

Thanks for your responses, though it seems to me like you used my post to go in your own direction as I said nothing about the date of meeting.

But to each their own.

What's your source on your statements? Maybe you'd like to interact with the Greek and explain your assertions a little better so I can interact with you better.

Hello Canuckster,
Sorry if I went too far afield with my reply.
If you would be more specific about which things I said, you would like more clarification on, I would be glad to do that.
Shalom,
Ruth