Evidence for God from Science

Here is a collection of comments I have just picked up whilst reading some threads:

you seem to be saying that only Christians say they are right...Atheists say there is no God, which is saying everyone else is wrong.
...
atheists may say that no theistic/pantheistic religion is correct, but only because he assumes his is correct.
...
If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
...
Atheism as well as theism takes faith. I wish people would stop saying only theists have faith
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I just feel like an atheist and a religious person at the same

I can't help but notice the following tendencies common amongst some on these forums:

1. A notion that atheism means absolute certainty there is no god.
2. A notion that atheists claim to be absolutely correct.
3. A notion that atheism requires just as much or even more faith than theism.
4. A notion that atheism is a religion.


While I personally disagree with all four notions it is curious how commonly they are repeated and how enthusiastic some are to express them. It is clear that these notions are considered to discredit atheism or to be arguments against atheism's validity.

So let's say for the sake of argument that all four notions are not misrepresentations. But in that case, do they not just amount to arguing:

1. Atheism is just as arrogant as theism.
2. Atheists are just as arrogant as theists.
3 & 4. Atheism is just as unfounded as theism.

In other words all four notions seem to express a sentiment that atheism is in some sense just as "rubbish" as theism.

Blob wrote:Here is a collection of comments I have just picked up whilst reading some threads:

you seem to be saying that only Christians say they are right...Atheists say there is no God, which is saying everyone else is wrong.
...
atheists may say that no theistic/pantheistic religion is correct, but only because he assumes his is correct.
...
If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
...
Atheism as well as theism takes faith. I wish people would stop saying only theists have faith
...
I just feel like an atheist and a religious person at the same

I can't help but notice the following tendencies common amongst some on these forums:

1. A notion that atheism means absolute certainty there is no god.
2. A notion that atheists claim to be absolutely correct.
3. A notion that atheism requires just as much or even more faith than theism.
4. A notion that atheism is a religion.


While I personally disagree with all four notions it is curious how commonly they are repeated and how enthusiastic some are to express them. It is clear that these notions are considered to discredit atheism or to be arguments against atheism's validity.

So let's say for the sake of argument that all four notions are not misrepresentations. But in that case, do they not just amount to arguing:

1. Atheism is just as arrogant as theism.
2. Atheists are just as arrogant as theists.
3 & 4. Atheism is just as unfounded as theism.

In other words all four notions seem to express a sentiment that atheism is in some sense just as "rubbish" as theism.

Arrogant? Really? Why? Christianiy isn't gnostic-saying "we have secret information that nobody else has that leads to our salvation, hahaha!" God revealed Himself to man, many times, and we aren't so hardened as to deny God's existence. Also, atheism is more arrogant-it says that EVERYONE ELSE on the planet, 95%+ of the world's present and past population, IS WRONG.

And, yes, our definitions and beliefs on what atheism are correct.

Humanist Manifesto I calls atheism a religion, when a group of communist leaders met years ago, they said basically the same thing.

And, a little game with prefixes...

Muse-to think
BUT, stick an A in front
Amuse-not to think
Theism-Belief that there is a God
Atheism-Belief that there is no God.

Not that hard.

Actually, I see atheism as MUCH WORSE than Deism.

Deism at least acknowledges a Creator, and thus implies that their may be some form of judgement in the after-life.

Atheism rejects all that, so we might as well "do whatever we can get away with" in this life, but because that is all there is. This position undermines anykind of ethical world-view, i.e. The ends will always justify the means.

PHIL121 wrote:Actually, I see atheism as MUCH WORSE than Deism.

Deism at least acknowledges a Creator, and thus implies that their may be some form of judgement in the after-life.

Atheism rejects all that, so we might as well "do whatever we can get away with" in this life, but because that is all there is. This position undermines anykind of ethical world-view, i.e. The ends will always justify the means.

Actually-the purpose of deism is the same as atheism-there's just the extra "and if there WERE a god...so what, he ain't around, doesn't matter to me."

Theism-Belief that there is a God
Atheism- Abelief that there is a God.
..............No belief that there is a God.

Anyone can play pedantics with semantics to "prove" a point and so it proves nothing, KMart.

atheism is more arrogant-it says that EVERYONE ELSE on the planet, 95%+ of the world's present and past population, IS WRONG.

Surely arrogance is an attitude rather than merely holding a minority viewpoint. By your definition any Australian aboriginal who maintains his traditional belief system is yet more arrogant because he says > 99% of EVERYONE ELSE is WRONG. (to adopt your liking for caps lock)

And, yes, our definitions and beliefs on what atheism are correct.

Yet I am an atheist and your definitions do not fit me. For example I do not declare "there is no god"; I declare "there may be a god, but I don't believe it."

However, given your absolutist certainty in your own opinions no doubt you will insist on the label agnostic for me, rather than allowing me to state for myself what label I choose. Yet by denying I am an atheist surely you pay me the complement of saying I am less arrogant and more reasonable than either theists or atheists? If so, thank you, I will from now on take your denial of my atheism as a complement.


Besides all the above the main point is you are attempting to critique an opposing view by saying it is just like your own. Imagine the equivalent in reverse; imagine an atheist saying: "Pah! Theism! It's not a religion and takes no faith. It's just as based on reason and evidence as atheism." A pretty confused insult I'm sure you'd agree.

Atheism rejects all that, so we might as well "do whatever we can get away with" in this life, but because that is all there is. This position undermines anykind of ethical world-view, i.e. The ends will always justify the means.

Surely you are mixing what you think ought to be with what might actually be.

If you were to become highly doubtful that there is a christian god afterall, would you retain your christianity on the basis that you would prefer it to be true?

PS Are you suggesting that as someone who does not believe in your god - and so in your eyes wanting to get away with anything I can - I might be dangerous to be around? That perhaps you should keep a close eye on your wallet were you ever to meet me in the flesh?

Yet I am an atheist and your definitions do not fit me. For example I do not declare "there is no god"; I declare "there may be a god, but I don't believe it."

Then, by definition, you are not an atheist-you are an agnostic.

Surely arrogance is an attitude rather than merely holding a minority viewpoint. By your definition any Australian aboriginal who maintains his traditional belief system is yet more arrogant because he says > 99% of EVERYONE ELSE is WRONG. (to adopt your liking for caps lock)

Yes, but the atheist says that even the basic principles-that there is supernatural, that there is life after death, that there is something that we cannot see that-are wrong.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:

Yet I am an atheist and your definitions do not fit me. For example I do not declare "there is no god"; I declare "there may be a god, but I don't believe it."

Then, by definition, you are not an atheist-you are an agnostic.

Surely arrogance is an attitude rather than merely holding a minority viewpoint. By your definition any Australian aboriginal who maintains his traditional belief system is yet more arrogant because he says > 99% of EVERYONE ELSE is WRONG. (to adopt your liking for caps lock)

Yes, but the atheist says that even the basic principles-that there is supernatural, that there is life after death, that there is something that we cannot see that-are wrong.

I think the point of Blob's post was to point out that people tend to pidgeon-hole other people based on a perceived label.

I am sure you know from your experience that all Christians are not alike. Some have doubt in their faith, some are strong. Some beleive in the bible literally others see it less rigidly. There is great variety to a "Christian" .

A second point he was trying to make was that in the generalization of athiests it is often compared to theism. And this comparison is meant to put athiesm in a bad light.

A lesson to be learned is no individual completely fits a category to a tee. A label should be taken with a grain of salt, because the truth is we are all individuals. Each beautiful, and each with our own charms.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Then, by definition, you are not an atheist-you are an agnostic.

Thank you, KMart. I can only take that as a complement, considering you have such a disdain of atheism that you liken it to theism. Presumably you consider those you label agnostic to be free from faith and religion and arrogance, unlike atheists/theists. That's a very kind opinion you have of me.

Blob wrote:

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Then, by definition, you are not an atheist-you are an agnostic.

Thank you, KMart. I can only take that as a complement, considering you have such a disdain of atheism that you liken it to theism. Presumably you consider those you label agnostic to be free from faith and religion and arrogance, unlike atheists/theists. That's a very kind opinion you have of me.

I disdain stupid atheists who rant and scream and cry that theists are all stupid, and claim that science backs them up at every single point, and that any source we use to refute them is biased and wrong and stupid...And I didn't say agnostics were free from faith and religion...I think you must, at least subconsciously, have faith that God does not exist-I just think it is possible that agnostics are more open-minded, and not so rabid like people like sockermoronfreak.

And then there's faith behind your presuppositions that make your worldview-like that you exist, for example...

KMart wrote:you are an agnostic.
...
agnostics are more open-minded

Thank you again.

blob wrote: I just feel like an atheist and a religious person at the same

Hey Blob. I just gotta jump in here 'cause I can't keep my big mouth shut.

I think it comes from a view of atheism that comes from people who belief that God exists. Atheism has a certian amount of superiority built into it when compared to theism. This is where, I think, this flavor you get about christian view of atheism comes from.

Chrisitan Philosophy. Humbled by the attention and love of a creator God far superior to us that would send his word to be flesh and dwell among us and reveal himself to us.

Chrisitan perspective of atheistic philosophy. I am the ultimate source of knowledge. There is nothing greater outside my existence or myself. AS the greatest evolved being I am the god of this place. Anything I do is right because their is no God to measure myself against

The atheistic philosophy has superioirty built in.

Not at all - jump right in and thank you for sharing your perspective.

It sounds like the existence of atheists is a slight irritation for you. If it's any consolation, that atheistic superiority will be wiped off our faces in the afterlife, assuming your religion to be correct.

Blob wrote:Not at all - jump right in and thank you for sharing your perspective.

It sounds like the existence of atheists is a slight irritation for you. If it's any consolation, that atheistic superiority will be wiped off our faces in the afterlife, assuming your religion to be correct.

No, Blob, not at all. I don't mean to say that you feel you are superior or that athiests do. I just think from my philosophical standing having come to the end of myself and found things wanting that creates a viewpoint that I was trying to explain.

By all means I am glad you exist. I wish you would come to the realizations I have come to, and that is because I believe them to be right, so you could argue that, and from what I gather you are, Christians are superior because they believe they hold truth within themselves, that is that God has been revealed to them, and that they discount other philosophies. But as long as you are convinced in your own mind, How can you come to any other conclusion reguardless of which philosophy/religion you subscribe to.

One could indeed argue that Christians have a superiority complex - for example because they believe this entire vast universe was finely-tuned just for us humans. Conversely, one could argue atheists have a superiority complex as you have done above.

But there is a fine line between feeling superior and having dignity; and between having humility and lacking self-respect. It seems to me we can all paint our "opponents" point of view as in some sense or other dishonourable or even dishonest. Yet many people on both "sides" are sincere and well-meaning, however misguided we all may be.