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What's the deal with Catholics?
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:33 am
by Blob
I have noticed many Christians, though by no means all or even most, have a hang up about Catholicism. Indeed, not just Christians but many conspiracy theorists do too ranging from relatively sober sounding accusations of the Vatican being behind major world decisions and business through to wacked out claims that the Pope is a baby-eating lizard (I kid not - see
David Icke for example - though I wouldn't waste your time actually reading that link, I certainly didn't.)
I'm not looking for emotive condemnations of Catholicism or the Vatican. But if anyone can give me a cool-headed handle on this seemingly widespread animosity I'd be intrigued to hear it.
Re: What's the deal with Catholics?
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:43 am
by bizzt
Blob wrote:I have noticed many Christians, though by no means all or even most, have a hang up about Catholicism. Indeed, not just Christians but many conspiracy theorists do too ranging from relatively sober sounding accusations of the Vatican being behind major world decisions and business through to wacked out claims that the Pope is a baby-eating lizard (I kid not - see
David Icke for example - though I wouldn't waste your time actually reading that link, I certainly didn't.)
I'm not looking for emotive condemnations of Catholicism or the Vatican. But if anyone can give me a cool-headed handle on this seemingly widespread animosity I'd be intrigued to hear it.
I believe it is to do with some of the Doctrines they hold onto. Like the Worship of Mary (however I do not think it as that), Praying to Saints, The Wine and Bread turning into the actual Blood and Body of Christ... There are others but I can't think of them off the top of my head. However I still believe there are Christians in that Church just like there are in Pentecostal Churches, Baptist Churches etc...
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:30 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
Every group has their weirdos-some have weirder weirdos though :-p
lol
I think it might be because of the arrogance of Catholics-many of them don't even consider other groups to be Christian-like, there's a quotation by this one missionary that was asking God to basically destroy the Protestant churches and raise up His church-as if the Protestant Churches didn't worship the right God or something silly like that. Maybe stuff like that-not quite an expert.
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 1:53 pm
by Jbuza
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
I think it might be because of the arrogance of Catholics-many of them don't even consider other groups to be Christian-like, there's a quotation by this one missionary that was asking God to basically destroy the Protestant churches and raise up His church-as if the Protestant Churches didn't worship the right God or something silly like that. Maybe stuff like that-not quite an expert.
I agree with this. I have been to catholic services many times, my father-in-law is catholic, so my wife and I go to Church with him sometimes. They recite the apostolic creed every service which includes the line "the one and only Holy Roman Catholic Church" as if the Bible Church I go to isn't church I guess. Also when I go to church there I am not allowed to partake in communion, because I am a heathen I guess. They also have some Doctrines I don't agree with.
That having been said, I don't mind going to the catholic church sometimes, but I wouldn't become a member. I think that one can be a Catholic and a Christian, but I think that some of their teachings may make it harder.
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:31 pm
by Kurieuo
My experience has been that lay Catholics aren't really taught about their faith so much as carrying out the practices, sacraments, signs, and symbols. Thus they get tied to only performing the rosery, petitioning saints for favours, candles, statues, imagery, and many other symbols and practices, rather then discovering the "real" to be found in Christ. So I think Catholicism gets too extreme on the symbols and practices at the expense of not teaching people about their faith, and encouraging a person's own growth with Christ.
Kurieuo
Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm
by Blob
Thanks for the responses guys, although I can't really see the problem. I mean - claiming exlcusivity on absolute truth; rituals that are arguably theologically dubious; lack of real understanding within followers - all that hardly distinguishes catholics from other religions or denominations.
Perhaps dislike for Catholicism comes from a tiny but vocal group and I am assuming a bigger issue than exists. But what about the Pope - I do often here people claim he is evil, even the anti-christ (or a baby-eating lizard!) etc.
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:45 am
by Kurieuo
Blob wrote:although I can't really see the problem.
I'm not sure what "problem" you think we see. It seems to me any "problem" seen would stem from you since you began the thread???
Blob wrote:I mean - claiming exlcusivity on absolute truth; rituals that are arguably theologically dubious; lack of real understanding within followers - all that hardly distinguishes catholics from other religions or denominations.
Firstly, it seems you're nitpicking for the sake of doing so. You began the topic. People gave their responses. And now it seems your trying to stigmatise
all responses to a certain anti-Catholic stereotype you have. Additionally, I'm not sure what sets you above us to be able to pronounce your own judgements while others here seem wrong to. That seems rather dubious to me.
Perhaps you've just come across wrong, but it seems to me you rigged this thread for it to only go one way. I don't like this. There are disagreements between Catholics and those who aren't. So what? This shows nothing. And valid points have been made here which should be taken up by Catholics, not someone trying to justify there being a "problem" with disagreeing when there really isn't one.
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:46 am
by Jbuza
Blob wrote: I mean - claiming exlcusivity on absolute truth. . .
I think that it does set Catholicism apart within christianity. Anyone that comes to my church can partake in communion, we try to make anyone feel welcome, and try to be quite plain in our biblical beliefs. I don't want to get into bash Catholics because while I personally feel they are misguided by teachings that came from Pope's of the past and perhaps of the present Pope, I do believe their are christians in their congregation and there is no point in creating discord within the Body of Christ.
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:44 pm
by j316
Kurieuo wrote:Blob wrote:although I can't really see the problem.
I'm not sure what "problem" you think we see. It seems to me any "problem" seen would stem from you since you began the thread???
Blob wrote:I mean - claiming exlcusivity on absolute truth; rituals that are arguably theologically dubious; lack of real understanding within followers - all that hardly distinguishes catholics from other religions or denominations.
Firstly, it seems you're nitpicking for the sake of doing so. You began the topic. People gave their responses. And now it seems your trying to stigmatise
all responses to a certain anti-Catholic stereotype you have. Additionally, I'm not sure what sets you above us to be able to pronounce your own judgements while others here seem wrong to. That seems rather dubious to me.
Are we seeing a touchiness coming from a theological hardening of the arteries here? Blog did not say what you attributed to him, he merely said that the traits catholics are accused of are not in themselves remarkably different from other denominations.
Perhaps you've just come across wrong, but it seems to me you rigged this thread for it to only go one way. I don't like this. There are disagreements between Catholics and those who aren't. So what? This shows nothing. And valid points have been made here which should be taken up by Catholics, not someone trying to justify there being a "problem" with disagreeing when there really isn't one.
Kurieuo
Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:55 pm
by AttentionKMartShoppers
j316 wrote:Kurieuo wrote:Blob wrote:although I can't really see the problem.
I'm not sure what "problem" you think we see. It seems to me any "problem" seen would stem from you since you began the thread???
Blob wrote:I mean - claiming exlcusivity on absolute truth; rituals that are arguably theologically dubious; lack of real understanding within followers - all that hardly distinguishes catholics from other religions or denominations.
Firstly, it seems you're nitpicking for the sake of doing so. You began the topic. People gave their responses. And now it seems your trying to stigmatise
all responses to a certain anti-Catholic stereotype you have. Additionally, I'm not sure what sets you above us to be able to pronounce your own judgements while others here seem wrong to. That seems rather dubious to me.
Are we seeing a touchiness coming from a theological hardening of the arteries here? Blog did not say what you attributed to him, he merely said that the traits catholics are accused of are not in themselves remarkably different from other denominations.
Perhaps you've just come across wrong, but it seems to me you rigged this thread for it to only go one way. I don't like this. There are disagreements between Catholics and those who aren't. So what? This shows nothing. And valid points have been made here which should be taken up by Catholics, not someone trying to justify there being a "problem" with disagreeing when there really isn't one.
Kurieuo
All you did was quote them...
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:14 am
by Blob
Apologies for any offense taken, and I can see I was clumsy.
Firstly, it seems you're nitpicking for the sake of doing so. You began the topic. People gave their responses. And now it seems your trying to stigmatise all responses to a certain anti-Catholic stereotype you have.
Yes I am exploring an anti-Catholic stereotype, I guess. Excuse my cognitive disonance. If I pushed too far please take it as me leaning too heavily on the mutual trust we are building, as opposed to me taking potshots at anyone.
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:04 am
by Veronica
Blob wrote:I have noticed many Christians, though by no means all or even most, have a hang up about Catholicism.
First of, Catholics are also Christians, and I know many people will disagree with me. Second, I believe that many people have a 'hang up' about Catholics because they misunderstand Catholic teaching. As Fulton J. Sheen put it, "There are not one hundred people in The united States that hate the Catholic Church. There are, however, millions who hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church."
Jbuza wrote:Also when I go to church there I am not allowed to partake in communion, because I am a heathen I guess.
You must be 'in communion with the catholic church to recieve communion.' Meaning you must be united with all that the church teaches, prays and does. Non-catholics are obviously not in full or complete union or they would be Roman Catholics.
Communion isn't the same in a Catholic church as it is in your church. Communion in the Catholic Church is literally the
body and blood of Jesus. In Protestant churches, it is a symbol.
Kurieuo wrote:My experience has been that lay Catholics aren't really taught about their faith so much as carrying out the practices, sacraments, signs, and symbols. Thus they get tied to only performing the rosery, petitioning saints for favours, candles, statues, imagery, and many other symbols and practices, rather then discovering the "real" to be found in Christ. So I think Catholicism gets too extreme on the symbols and practices at the expense of not teaching people about their faith, and encouraging a person's own growth with Christ.
Sadly enough, many Catholics can't defend their faith. And many Catholics just go to Mass, etc because "it's what they grew up with" and they feel guilty if they don't. However, I have many Catholic friends who have a wonderful relationship with Christ, through the help of the Mary and the saints. So while many Catholics have strayed away from Christ
and the church, there are still many Roman Catholics who are deeply commited to Christ.
As for the many comments about the pope, yes there have many many corrupted popes (take Alexander the..sixth, I do beleive). But there have also been many saintly, Christ centered popes. (take Benedict, our present pope, as well as John Paul II etc, although some of you may disagree with me). But Christ is faithful to his promise.
For an explanation and a defence on the papacy:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
Blessings and Prayers,
Veronica
Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:20 pm
by Jbuza
Veronica wrote:First of, Catholics are also Christians, and I know many people will disagree with me. . . . You must be 'in communion with the catholic church to recieve communion.' Meaning you must be united with all that the church teaches, prays and does. Non-catholics are obviously not in full or complete union or they would be Roman Catholics.
I believe Catholics can be Christians. I guess I no longer have any desire to take communion at the catholic church, thanks. I take communion to be in communion with Jesus, because he commanded us to gather together and remember his death and the love he has for us. I wouldn't mind having communion, remembering our LORD together with some catholics, but I have no desire to commune with the catholic church, and find no scriptural justification for some of their teaching. I guess that comes from accepting Papal teaching as if it were from God. Jesus is my priest and I follow his teachings.
Thanks for the info. Again I don't mind going to the catholic church, but I don't believe I could commune with it as if
it were God.
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:29 pm
by Byblos
Veronica wrote:Blob wrote:I have noticed many Christians, though by no means all or even most, have a hang up about Catholicism.
First of, Catholics are also Christians, and I know many people will disagree with me. Second, I believe that many people have a 'hang up' about Catholics because they misunderstand Catholic teaching. As Fulton J. Sheen put it, "There are not one hundred people in The united States that hate the Catholic Church. There are, however, millions who hate what they mistakenly believe to be the Catholic Church."
Jbuza wrote:Also when I go to church there I am not allowed to partake in communion, because I am a heathen I guess.
You must be 'in communion with the catholic church to recieve communion.' Meaning you must be united with all that the church teaches, prays and does. Non-catholics are obviously not in full or complete union or they would be Roman Catholics.
Communion isn't the same in a Catholic church as it is in your church. Communion in the Catholic Church is literally the
body and blood of Jesus. In Protestant churches, it is a symbol.
Kurieuo wrote:My experience has been that lay Catholics aren't really taught about their faith so much as carrying out the practices, sacraments, signs, and symbols. Thus they get tied to only performing the rosery, petitioning saints for favours, candles, statues, imagery, and many other symbols and practices, rather then discovering the "real" to be found in Christ. So I think Catholicism gets too extreme on the symbols and practices at the expense of not teaching people about their faith, and encouraging a person's own growth with Christ.
Sadly enough, many Catholics can't defend their faith. And many Catholics just go to Mass, etc because "it's what they grew up with" and they feel guilty if they don't. However, I have many Catholic friends who have a wonderful relationship with Christ, through the help of the Mary and the saints. So while many Catholics have strayed away from Christ
and the church, there are still many Roman Catholics who are deeply commited to Christ.
As for the many comments about the pope, yes there have many many corrupted popes (take Alexander the..sixth, I do beleive). But there have also been many saintly, Christ centered popes. (take Benedict, our present pope, as well as John Paul II etc, although some of you may disagree with me). But Christ is faithful to his promise.
For an explanation and a defence on the papacy:
http://www.catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
Blessings and Prayers,
Veronica
Veronica, an excellent post, thank you. It is truly amazing how misunderstood the Catholic faith is. I go around from one forum to another trying to correct some of these misconceptions but it's like plugging holes (you plug one, another ten spring out). But we have to keep the dialogue open not matter what. I won't respond to any points raised thus far in this thread as I think you covered them.
Just one thing that JBuza said:
JBuza wrote:Thanks for the info. Again I don't mind going to the catholic church, but I don't believe I could commune with it as if it were God.
The Catholic church does in no way consider itself God. It considers itself the foremost authority on scripture because the belief is that Jesus himself established it as such and commanded it to do so.
I asked the following question in a different post but never got a reply: Who would you consider an authority on scripture in cases of disputes? When 2 Protestants interpret the Bible differently, who determines who is right?
I pose these questions in an effort to learn as I do not know the answer. In Catholisim, the answer is the supreme court (i.e. the church).
God bless you all.
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:51 pm
by bizzt
Byblos wrote:
I pose these questions in an effort to learn as I do not know the answer. In Catholisim, the answer is the supreme court (i.e. the church).
God bless you all.
What is the Church?