Evidence for God from Science

I was wondering what peoples views are on the spiritual realm. Evidently God exists here, but he is also in a spritiual realm that is not apparent, usually, to the physical realm.

Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Jbuza wrote:I was wondering what peoples views are on the spiritual realm. Evidently God exists here, but he is also in a spritiual realm that is not apparent, usually, to the physical realm.

Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Our spirit looks through the physical eyes of the physical human body (the eyes are the window to the soul), as well as interacting with the spiritual realm at all times, we are two co-existing beings. We do "see" spiritual things, but it isn't physical, it is something different we know, what comes to mind.

That is interesting. I never thought of that about the spirit seeing through the eyes? John the apostle, says that one one LORD'S day he was walking in the spirit, and his eyes were opened. If an angel can appear, does that mean that it also has a body?

Thinker wrote:

Jbuza wrote:I was wondering what peoples views are on the spiritual realm. Evidently God exists here, but he is also in a spritiual realm that is not apparent, usually, to the physical realm.

Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Our spirit looks through the physical eyes of the physical human body (the eyes are the window to the soul), as well as interacting with the spiritual realm at all times, we are two co-existing beings. We do "see" spiritual things, but it isn't physical, it is something different we know, what comes to mind.

Yes we are always interacting with the spiritual world. Use your heart to "see" into the spiritual world.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Thinker wrote:

Jbuza wrote:I was wondering what peoples views are on the spiritual realm. Evidently God exists here, but he is also in a spritiual realm that is not apparent, usually, to the physical realm.

Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Our spirit looks through the physical eyes of the physical human body (the eyes are the window to the soul), as well as interacting with the spiritual realm at all times, we are two co-existing beings. We do "see" spiritual things, but it isn't physical, it is something different we know, what comes to mind.

Yes we are always interacting with the spiritual world. Use your heart to "see" into the spiritual world.

Word, BGood!

Thinker wrote:

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Thinker wrote:

Jbuza wrote:I was wondering what peoples views are on the spiritual realm. Evidently God exists here, but he is also in a spritiual realm that is not apparent, usually, to the physical realm.

Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Our spirit looks through the physical eyes of the physical human body (the eyes are the window to the soul), as well as interacting with the spiritual realm at all times, we are two co-existing beings. We do "see" spiritual things, but it isn't physical, it is something different we know, what comes to mind.

Yes we are always interacting with the spiritual world. Use your heart to "see" into the spiritual world.

Word, BGood!

I see your faith is growing stronger everyday.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:Yes we are always interacting with the spiritual world. Use your heart to "see" into the spiritual world.

I like it!! I cam eacross a piece on this subject that made me think of you. This is a small excerpt, but check the link if you want, I havent finished the read yet, but thought this was interesting.

Under our analysis two antithetic worlds emerge, a world of nature and of spirit, the former guided by blind forces, the latter self-managed. Unlike spiritual beings, natural objects are under alien control; have not the power of development, and when brought into close conjunction with others are liable to disruption.

The Nature of Goodness
by George Herbert Palmer
http://www.authorama.com/nature-of-goodness-8.html

I am rivited, good read.

Nice one Bgood.

Dan

Jbuza wrote:Angels have appeared, demonic powers are able to influence, so this realm is able to influence our physical existence. We are told that we struggle with powers that are not visible to us, so we must be able to influence the spiritual realm.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Part of our being is spiritual, so we must exist in both these ways. How is it that our spiritual being is not more able to see spiritual things as clearly as our body sees physical things?

Simply we are allowed or not by the Father as He sees fit. As for the mechanism that we cannot see into the spirit realm is a mystery.

2Ki 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.
2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, a host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?
2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.
2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

Open your eyes, the spiritual world is all around you and within you. Compassion will lift the blinders.

As for the mechanism that we cannot see into the spirit realm is a mystery.

I believe this is not a mystery, when all the pieces of the puzzle are correctly assembled.

The piece by G.H. Palmer identifies to me the common problem that needs to be overcome in order to understand the problem which solves the mystery.

Palmer notes, "Under our analysis two antithetic worlds emerge, a world of nature and of spirit, the former guided by blind forces, the latter self-managed." Here is an ontological ambiguity which never leads to the truth, a view quite predominant in Christian thinking to this day, IMO. Basically, the notion that spirit is intrinsically different in structure (meaning wholly good, alive or cleansed) than matter, what we Christians often call 'the flesh' is the error that has to be overcome in order to see the truth.

I won't get into the problem areas caused by improper assignment of a whole state of 'goodness' to human spirit, but can provide a link to my web site for further reading of an article I wrote some years ago in case anyone wishes to push the matter to clarification. The way I think of it is kind of abstract, but quite logical and lines up well with Scripture.

1) All that exists in information...matter, mind, spirit, etc. All information exists (here's the important ontological distinction) in possession of some ratio of the proerties true and false.
2) Truth and falsity manifest themselves in different ways in different things, but at base they share in common the fact that to the extent an informational structure is true, it's perfect....to the extent it's false, it's imperfect. In the realm of matter, we can say that the structure of a home is nearest perfection when it's new. If the home's purpose is to house humans safely and comfortably, then the home has a high degree of truth in its true/false ratio. One hundred years from now when the mutability of time has ravaged the house, it will have fallen into falsity or imperfection to the degree that it no longer is capable of housing human safely and comfortably.
3) In human intellect, there's a very different nature than is found in simple matter because spirit as an animating force exists as the most important part of the whole....spirit infuses matter to create mind (intellect). I agree with Palmer's observation, "When the Renaissance revolted against the teachings of the mediaeval church, the disposition to return to nature was insolently strong." The move toward a materialistic worldview automatically assigns relevance to the material world and dismisses the notion of animating spirit, which clear paths for teachings like evolution and etc.

I digress. Truth and falsity take on a new dimension in created intellect that isn't found in matter. Here, true metamorphoses into moral "good" and falsity into the moral evil of wickedness. Spirit blends with matter [brain; sense data] to form intellect, from which reason springs. Reason is used (both before and after) in forming intent, and the will is a product of this process. The mystery IRQ speaks of is solved in understanding that the extent reason is corrupted by falsity is directly correspondent to the degree to which both matter and spirit are corrupted by falsity.

The idea that spirit is clean and the human nature of attraction to and appetite for evil lies in matter is an untenable and illogical conclusion. In intellect, spirit as animating force is the primary force. Think about it...if spirit were wholly pure and regenerate, the falsity of matter (brain, body) would have only a slight effect on the cognitive process. Thoughts would be very close to pure. The true and good have unity with truth; falsity has a natural association with evil. The wholly "clean" state of spirit is the primary force of human intellect...to say that some ratio of falsity in matter is able to predominate over spirit in intellect is simply irrational.

Now if you move falsity to both spirit and matter, the whole picture becomes coherent and realistic. Experience is full of both good and evil in some real proportion to one another. The devil doesn't make us do it, though he certainly encourages us...but we perform evil from a true evil nature, a nature that is intrinsic to all of our being, spirit and body.

The mystery disappears when we understand that tension and resistance exist between the antithetical properties tue and false. Falsity in spirit creates an intellectual "darkness" of understanding spiritual things. We love our darkness (falsity; evil...Jn 3:19) because falsity resists spiritual truth, it's not in unity with it. Spiritual absolute Truth (Christ) is actually the means of death (thus providing a high degree of tension and resistance) to human falsity. We don't want to die, so we hide in our darkness...this is why we don't understand spiritual things.

Sorry this is so long, but it's hard to explain this in two or three sentences.

1 Thessalonians 5:13 declares man is a tripartite being. We are a spirit, possess a soul, and are housed in a body.

The body, our physical self is obvious -nowadays it gets lots of attention.
The difference between soul and spirit are harder to distinguish, but I think Hebrews 4:12 gives us a clue.

Hebrews 4:12: "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (NKJV).

There is a division between soul and spirit. That difference is like the the difference between joints and marrow, or thoughts and intents of the heart.

Soul is where your thoughts and reasoning occurs.
Spirit is the seat of motivation and direction -the deepest most part of you.

Motivation (spirit) is tempered by reason (soul) and produces action (body) which manipulates the physical world we live in. I find it interesting that Jesus Christ does not repair our spirit, but gives us a new one (Ezekiel 11:19). The intent is to save the soul which retains memories, reason, and knowledge (James 1:21, & Romans 12:2). The evidence of God's redemption is seen by changed behavior (James 2:26).

God lives in the realm of spirits, of which we are a part, but gave mankind authority over a physical creation until such time we return to Him. The spirit realm is more real than the physical we're used to. Imagine interaction with other astronauts, in space suits, on the moon. After divesting such clunky apparatus to do the same, it becomes easier. Though it be counterintuitive, the spirit realm from which all things are created (Hebrews 11:3) is much more tangible and "real" than the physical we're used to.

Our bodies are spacesuits... Hmm. Interesting analogy.

Welcome to the board btw, M7.

Hi m7,

M7nyc wrote:Soul is where your thoughts and reasoning occurs.
Spirit is the seat of motivation and direction -the deepest most part of you.

Motivation (spirit) is tempered by reason (soul) and produces action (body) which manipulates the physical world we live in. I find it interesting that Jesus Christ does not repair our spirit, but gives us a new one (Ezekiel 11:19). .

Your view of spirit/body/soul is similar to mine. Couple of thoughts...
1. Your notion of spirit as 'motivation' is similar to the traditional view of spirit as 'animating force', so am assuming you mean essentially the same thing here. As such, wouldn't reason actually be tempered by spirit rather than the other way around? I believe to the extent spirit is false or evil, the reason and emotions are likewise corrupted. The causative path for this seems to be established in Genesis where God declared to Adam that he would die the day he ate from the tree of the knowlege of good and evil (Gen 2:17). God was true: what died 'that day' was not Adam's body, but something in Adam's spirit--the pathology or property of falsity was incorporated into the fabric of spirit by sin--as evidenced by the fact that when God entered the garden, Adam and Eve knew to be ashamed of their nakedness and hid from Him. When their spirits were perfect [existed in a physical and spiritual informational structure which was completely true], they enjoyed a face-to-face relationship with God. Sin introduced falsity, which affected reason and eventually flowed into even material reality, as it took Adam 930 years to actually die physically (Gen 5:5).

2. I believe the Bible in its esoteric sense speaks directly to the principle that the Lord gives us a new spirit specifically by a methodology of repair, of destroying the falsity [death] in spirit gradually in sanctification in this life and bringing forth or changing spirit to a true [live] state in a fragmented and progressive regneration. Ezek 21:2-5 speaks to this 'spiritual surgery', wherein the Lord's sword cuts off the 'righteous from the wicked'. If you have Online Bible, a search of the word 'offspring' shows a number of passages in the books of the prophets wherein God speaks of the bringing forth of offspring. This holds true in both its literal (application to particulars or individuals) and spiritual (application to essence or spirit of each individual) senses.

The same fire that the Bible speaks of which destroys evil can be applied either gradually and mercifully or immediately and harshly....this is the difference between salvation by faith in time or salvation by force in the lake of fire, where God declares He'll show no mercy [Ezek 7:4, 9:10, Jer 11:11]. To be "salted" with fire (Mark 9:49) speaks quite directly, I think, to the fragmented process of regeneration. Paul speaks of this repair work in the human spirit (Heb 4:12), and Isa 10:16-19 paints an interesting picture:

"Therefore the Lord, the GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors; And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame. And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame, And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day.
"And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body; And it will be as when a sick man wastes away. And the rest of the trees of his forest will be so small in number That a child could write them down."

Fire is spiritual languge which invariably speaks to a regenerative process. Interestingly, God inspired His prophets to frame their prophecies in ways that almost always represent an aspect of multiplicity, as in the above, referring to "his forest", "fruitful garden", which are then associated to "soul and body". Interesting that this prophecy tells of dectruction so severe that most of the "forest" is destroyed, which is consistent with the prophecies of destruction to a remnant (Isa 10:20-22, etc.) To me, this represents a sanctifying methodology which corresponds to the notion of multiplicity, of a work performed in human essence taking place on a level so far from our sight that we're unaware of the work being accomplished in us until we one day notice that we've somehow been changed in our thinking and attitudes. If we stop and think about it, we wouldn't notice if our body were being changed a few molecules at a time. I think Scripture in its esoteric sense sets this principle as true for spirit as well.

My two cents, for what it's worth.