Evidence for God from Science

Hi,

I'm wondering what a Christian would make of this...

I believe that to place boundaries around physical manifestations and call them separate is incorrect. I.e. we are all the same thing, or rather, the physical manifestations we experience by our senses, interpreted by our consciousness are really all linked by some universal force or forces. E.g. if the universe was a human body, then we might be the little hairs on its skin.

Taking this to the extreme, the universe, i.e. the set of everything, is really just one thing, not a disjoint collection of items, but a super being, self-evolving omni-present (how can it be anything but omni-present when it is one object), but NOT all knowing.

If it were as a whole, all knowing, then what force would there be for it to change, i.e. why would it need to change if it knew everything? as to know everything is to have done everything and to reach the goal of existence.

Over the years clever people have chosen to write down their ideas, like I'm going now, if anything to make some sense out of it all, maybe to answer the big question: why are we here? I put it to you that the answer is the question. I.e. we ask the question, strive for knowledge, because we are the force behind the universe, or to put it into Christian terms, we are God. We are our own creators, it's just that we have forgotten, or are unable to remember where we started, in the beginning.

The Bible is just someone else's interpretation, someone's rant about existence, reason etc... I could turn this into a similar book, then perhaps in a few thousand years time, I might be called a prophet or some god-like driving force, which I would be, otherwise why would people still be reading it in thousands of years time.

I feel pity for people with strict beliefs which limit their existence, my god, the force that drives me, has no limits, it is neither a force for "good" or for "evil" nor "order" nor "chaos", it's an infinitely beautiful complex mixture of them all, of everything, can't you see it? I like to think I can at least begin to appreciate its vast greatness.

What about these extra 6 spatial dimensions String Theorists have discovered? Amazing, and all point me to the same conclusion; the 3D brane of existence we experience is merely the very tip of the iceberg of full existence. We exist in all dimensions all of the time, it's just that the particular part of our consciousness which we experience is trapped in a 3D bubble, though still eternally connected to the rest of the universe through the extra dimensions.

The moral of the story is, don't let your beliefs limit the potential of your existence, we can all evolve to experience the fullness of existence, it's just going to take some time.

Dan...

Oh my... Where to begin...

First, welcome to the forums Dan. It will be good to have some differing viewpoints here.

Let me say that I agree with many of the basic observations that you make. The difference between our viewpoints has more to do with where we each start than where we each end up. I think this may become clear as I address certain statements below.

DanS wrote:I believe that to place boundaries around physical manifestations and call them separate is incorrect. I.e. we are all the same thing, or rather, the physical manifestations we experience by our senses, interpreted by our consciousness are really all linked by some universal force or forces. E.g. if the universe was a human body, then we might be the little hairs on its skin.

I agree that there certainly is a bond between what may at first glance be considered two distinct physical objects/beings. Even amongst two physical objects there are forces at play (gravity for one, electromagnetism, etc.) and entanglement shows us that some 'bonds' can extend vast distances. And there is an even greater bond between people - we do exist beyond our physical 4 dimensional mortal beings - we are spiritual beings and although few are sensitive to spiritual forces, they are constantly at play. We have the capability to interact with these forces - through Satan worship we may well gather around us Demons and evil forces, and conversely through prayer to the Lord we engage in real spiritual battle. This is less obvious in our Western Democracies, but not so uncommon in other nations and cultures.

However, I do reject the idea that just because there is a bond, there cannot be two entities. Sharing a bond does not eliminate individuality entirely, but only to some degree. A husband and wife can be considered one from some viewpoint, but clearly remain two sentient beings. In fact, true individuality could be considered a very Religious concept in that the decision about whether you will believe in Jesus is something directly between YOU and God - no one else can have Faith for you - God is asking each individual, "will you believe?"

DanS wrote: Taking this to the extreme, the universe, i.e. the set of everything, is really just one thing, not a disjoint collection of items, but a super being, self-evolving omni-present (how can it be anything but omni-present when it is one object), but NOT all knowing.

If it were as a whole, all knowing, then what force would there be for it to change, i.e. why would it need to change if it knew everything? as to know everything is to have done everything and to reach the goal of existence.

Well from our perspective the universe certainly is omni-present, because how can we ever be separate from it? By very definition, the universe is 'everything.' But that doesn't imply that it is a 'being' in any sense. Physical matter is not intelligence - it does not think. It interacts with other matter according to the laws of science, but that is only the illusion of intelligence... Similar to how computers also 'feign' intelligence when in reality they are just simple machines that do exactly what they must.

But do I see intelligence in the universe? Yes, certainly. Intelligence in the design of how it functions. I seems that you know at a fundamental level that 'something' seems to oversee or guide the universe. I 'know' the same thing, but interpret that knowledge as the existence of a living, loving, God.

Romans 1:18-20
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

In other words, the recognition of the existence of a higher being is imbued by God in all people, and I believe that this is why so many can profess to a higher power. Furthermore, God's creation reveals his 'eternal power and divine nature' which is why it's not so unreasonable to conclude that the creation itself is somehow divine. I would assert that you know the truth, and see the divine, but are just misinterpreting it slightly.

DanS wrote: Over the years clever people have chosen to write down their ideas, like I'm going now, if anything to make some sense out of it all, maybe to answer the big question: why are we here? I put it to you that the answer is the question. I.e. we ask the question, strive for knowledge, because we are the force behind the universe, or to put it into Christian terms, we are God. We are our own creators, it's just that we have forgotten, or are unable to remember where we started, in the beginning.

See this is where you start to diverge much more from my beliefs. The erroneous conclusion that the universe itself is divine, leads to the assertion that individuals are divine. Immortal? Sure. Fairly smart? Yes. Sentient? Definitely. God? NOPE!

We are all those other things because those things are what enable us to be loving beings. Without sentience there could be no self awareness which permits the statement "I Love You." Without immortality love is temporary and ultimately not real. Our sentience, ability to think, and most importantly our freedom to believe, was given to us so that we would be capable of creating a true and lasting love for Jesus and for the Lord. We are here to make a choice whether or not we will Love Him. And our souls are created for the purpose of having an eternal loving and personal relationship with God. Certainly we are not insignificant, for if we were that love would be also. Yet there is only one God, and you're not Him!

DanS wrote: The Bible is just someone else's interpretation, someone's rant about existence, reason etc... I could turn this into a similar book, then perhaps in a few thousand years time, I might be called a prophet or some god-like driving force, which I would be, otherwise why would people still be reading it in thousands of years time.

I feel pity for people with strict beliefs which limit their existence, my god, the force that drives me, has no limits, it is neither a force for "good" or for "evil" nor "order" nor "chaos", it's an infinitely beautiful complex mixture of them all, of everything, can't you see it? I like to think I can at least begin to appreciate its vast greatness.

What about these extra 6 spatial dimensions String Theorists have discovered? Amazing, and all point me to the same conclusion; the 3D brane of existence we experience is merely the very tip of the iceberg of full existence. We exist in all dimensions all of the time, it's just that the particular part of our consciousness which we experience is trapped in a 3D bubble, though still eternally connected to the rest of the universe through the extra dimensions.

Sure, anyone can write their thoughts, and some even enough to create a religion. Mohammed did that to create the Muslim Faith. Understand that the Bible, though, is the Word of God. In it the will of our creator and the will of the only all-powerful being that exists is conveyed to us. The fact that the Bible claims to be the Word of God (the same Word by the way, that created the universe) is a major distinction between Christianity and other religions.

Well string theory is far from fact... But for the sake of argument I'll go along with it. Were it found to be true, I would agree that there certainly are further plains of existence. (well I believe that regardless of the theory) Our souls exist in some of them. But God exists in all of them... It is the very thing that makes God timeless. He created time along with the universe, and as such He is not bound by it. He sees the whole universe from start to end because He is not bound by time like we are. Hence He is 'I Am." "The beginning and the end." "In the beginning WAS the Word." Ever thought about that? At the very start, was ALREADY God - He started before the start.

DanS wrote: The moral of the story is, don't let your beliefs limit the potential of your existence, we can all evolve to experience the fullness of existence, it's just going to take some time.

Well, the moral of my story is the same to you. Loving and being loved by God is the very definition of a 'full' existence. Jesus came that we might live life abundantly, and those who know Him certainly do just that. I only pray that one day you too might come to know the peace, fulfillment, and joy that we as Christians have and that only God can give.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

Looks like we the only fundamental difference between our beliefs is that I believe God is the super set of everything, i.e. the universe, and you believe God is more than everything, i.e. He is a single entity living in a "super universe".

Oh well, no way to prove or disprove either since we are bound by the limits of our non-super-universe, that is unless you can get God to lend you a "super-universe-telescope" then we're stuck with no proof, oh well.

Dan...

DanS wrote:Looks like we the only fundamental difference between our beliefs is that I believe God is the super set of everything, i.e. the universe, and you believe God is more than everything, i.e. He is a single entity living in a "super universe".

Well, that's the point at which our beliefs diverge. And from that starting point I accept the Bible by Faith, which leads to the admission and acceptance that Jesus died for my eternal salvation.

DanS wrote: Oh well, no way to prove or disprove either since we are bound by the limits of our non-super-universe, that is unless you can get God to lend you a "super-universe-telescope" then we're stuck with no proof, oh well.

True, there's no proof that one individual can use to convince another. Proof can only be established within an individual through Faith. But there's plenty that anyone can do to see evidence. Getting involved with people of Faith that are truly walking with Jesus will provide ample opportunity for one to witness the wonder of the Holy Spirit that is manifest through such people.

Felgar wrote:True, there's no proof that one individual can use to convince another. Proof can only be established within an individual through Faith. But there's plenty that anyone can do to see evidence. Getting involved with people of Faith that are truly walking with Jesus will provide ample opportunity for one to witness the wonder of the Holy Spirit that is manifest through such people.

I almost started laughing because I was thinking of how many people one could find that believe themselves to be the god of the cosmos. How many of these people could we find to "get involved" with to witness...that's the funny part...what would they have to witness to anyone? There is NO evidence that they are god! The best they can do is say we've "forgotten" how we did it?

The truth is there are only two "proven" scenarios.

1. We are a product of a cosmic burp, one that lead from nothing to something...

2. A Creator God that has revealed Himself through the complexity of nature and through a "book" that has survived even though men have tried as they may to rid themselves of it.

There is no other.
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BavarianWheels wrote:I almost started laughing because I was thinking of how many people one could find that believe themselves to be the god of the cosmos. How many of these people could we find to "get involved" with to witness...that's the funny part...what would they have to witness to anyone? There is NO evidence that they are god! The best they can do is say we've "forgotten" how we did it?

Did you misunderstand me? What I was saying is that the Holy Spirit reveals himself through true believers in a real and tangible way. So that if someone wants to seek evidence of God, a good place to do that is to get to know Christians with a personal relationship with Jesus.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you? What do you mean by this statement?

Felgar wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:I almost started laughing because I was thinking of how many people one could find that believe themselves to be the god of the cosmos. How many of these people could we find to "get involved" with to witness...that's the funny part...what would they have to witness to anyone? There is NO evidence that they are god! The best they can do is say we've "forgotten" how we did it?

Did you misunderstand me? What I was saying is that the Holy Spirit reveals himself through true believers in a real and tangible way. So that if someone wants to seek evidence of God, a good place to do that is to get to know Christians with a personal relationship with Jesus.

Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you? What do you mean by this statement?

The laugh was not at you...as it seems we agree here...but at the prospect of finding a community of people that believe as the one to whom you were responding.

IOW...where do we find such a community of people who believe themselves to be the "gods" of the universe, but have only forgotten how to be a god?...as opposed to finding a Christian community that can be found on just about every street corner of the U.S.

I was laughing because aside from DanS, I've not heard of this theory before.

Felgar wrote:Getting involved with people of Faith that are truly walking with Jesus will provide ample opportunity for one to witness the wonder of the Holy Spirit that is manifest through such people.

Where are the people of DanS's "faith" and what is their witness? What are they "walking" in? What sustains their "faith?"
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BavarianWheels wrote:Where are the people of DanS's "faith" and what is their witness? What are they "walking" in? What sustains their "faith?"

Right, I see what you're saying. It's like "why would anyone believe that they are god, when they are so clearly inadequate in relation to the one true God?" And why believe something with so little evidence, when all you'd have to do is get to know some Christians in order to witness the Holy Spirit.... In that sense it is almost laughable.

In Dan's defence though, he's certainly not alone. The whole 'new age' movement is essentially this same concept that either "the whole universe is God" or "each of us is God"... It's very common among scientists who, being so intimate with nature, simply cannot deny how nature testifies to the glory of God. To reconcile that with their inability to come to terms with the true nature of God and salvation, it is necessary to redirect their faith and mislabel God. The good thing about it is that they're one step closer to the full realisation of who they and God really are than an atheist is.

Felgar wrote:In Dan's defence though, he's certainly not alone. The whole 'new age' movement is essentially this same concept that either "the whole universe is God" or "each of us is God"... It's very common among scientists who, being so intimate with nature, simply cannot deny how nature testifies to the glory of God. To reconcile that with their inability to come to terms with the true nature of God and salvation, it is necessary to redirect their faith and mislabel God. The good thing about it is that they're one step closer to the full realisation of who they and God really are than an atheist is.

Right. And so the question remains. Where are the followers of this "faith"...where do they gather that outsiders can experience their faith and become convinced? Do they sing songs of praise to themselves, is there a creed they follow? If there is a creed, from where do they gather their morals-if morality is based on "points of view" as DanS has clearly stated already?

There is no "group"...it is the "religion" of Self.
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Right... Through our discourse we have found common ground and understanding here Bav. There is no live and vibrant church through which God does work within Dan's faith system. But hopefully Dan will open his mind to the further possibilities that God is alive, real, loving and has freely given the necessary gift of salvation to all who would receive it.

Hey Dan. I'll not take your post line-by-line as Felgar did. His response was completely adequate in that regard, and the following discussion with Bav. did a good job to clarify other points. Instead, I wanted to point out that your belief is what is properly termed pantheism. You would be interested, I imagine, in a slightly different view known as panentheism. I'd recommend that link for a discussion on the difference between the two. Pantheism is the basic idea behind Hinduism, in fact, behind almost all Eastern thought. It is the driving force behind the postmodern movement (which has, gradually, adopted more of a panentheistic world-view, but that's beside the point). In other words, the road you are on has been traveled for well over four thousand years.

That said, there are some inherent flaws in the thinking, so far as I see it. First, a pantheistic world view simply cannot allow for a personal God. Now, by "personal," I don't mean it in the sense of possession (i.e., my personal trainer). I mean it as a distinction between that which is impersonal and that which is personal. One of the things that ALL world-views must ask themselves is this: is reality ultimately grounded in the personal or the impersonal? For the sake of argument, I am defining a "person" as a being with emotion, will, and intellect (this is the theological definition of "personhood." See any book on basic or systematic theology . . . Ryrie's popular Basic Theology comes to mind, being that I just read it ).

Now, we know that personality exists in this universe. You and I are "persons." You can perhaps argue that personality is all an illusion. In fact, you'll note that this is a required position for hard atheists or anyone of a materialistic persuasion. We also know that the impersonal exists. This computer doesn't have emotion, intellect, or will. It is not a person.

So, here is the question: did Impersonality give rise to Personality, or did Personality give rise to Impersonality?

What you have tried to do, and what all beginning pantheists try to do, is make the Universe Personal. But, you can't really argue that rocks think--certainly not in the same capacity has we do! More importantly, we have this concept of a Beginning. The universe is finite, after all. It hasn't existed forever. If, then, the universe is ALL that exists, then Impersonality MUST give rise to Personality, because "nothing" is certainly not Personal, is it? I imagine you could try to argue that the universe actually has existed forever, but you'd be going against both the grain of logic and modern science. Without getting technical, we have an argument that looks back to the Necessary Existence. That, ultimately, is what I am talking about. It simply says, "That which must exist does exist." Now, that which must exist is, by definition, incapable of non-existence. Therefore, if something is capable of non-existence, it is not the Necessary Existence. But, as we established earlier, non-existence is certainly Impersonal. Therefore, the Necessary Existence MUST be personal (which, in my mind, rules out atheism).

So, you have to argue that the universe itself has emotion, will, and intellect. That may well be your presupposition, but it is only that. More importantly, if the universe is capable of non-existence, then the universe cannot be the Necessary Existence, and therefore, it CANNOT be the ultimate Personality you are assuming it to be? Is it capable of non-existence? I think the pretty obvious answer is yes. What, after all, is the universe? If any part of it is capable of non-existence, why not the whole? It seems very much to have had a beginning, and it most definitely will experience an End. We may argue that a new universe will arise in it's place, but again, THIS universe is capable of non-existence, and therefore, the Necessary Existence must be outside of this. If you read the article, you'll find here why Panentheism is so attractive, at least for more progressive thinkers in your line of reasoning.

To me, then, Pantheism, which is what the actual position you defined is, becomes logically self-contradictory. You either must claim that this Universe is Personal (and therefore assume some greater personality, which violates the initial idea that this Universe is the superset of all that is), or you must argue that ultimately, the universe is Impersonal, and that any "Personality" that exists is merely an illusion. "God" then, just becomes a matter of semantics, and you are really nothing more than a philosophical atheist. You, then, have the same problems to deal with as any other person in that category. But, that is the nature of pantheism . . . a true pantheist argues for an "impersonal force" . . . certainly not a personal God.

This is long enough. Hopefully it will give you something to chew on. Regardless, I simply do not accept your position as true or valid, no offense intended. I believe in a Personal, Self-existence, totally Unique God that exists independently of me. (As an aside, it is interesting to me that the primary sin of human beings, according to the Bible, is that we try to be our own gods. Modern thought has taken this to extremes! ). That all said, welcome to the boards, check out the posting rules, and I look forward to talking more with you.

God bless

Firstly, let me strighten some things out, I don't believe I am a "God" or posess the power to wield any "Godly" powers. What I was saying is, I think the Universe should be considered as one object, to which we are all essential parts, like the cogs in a machine. "God" should be considered as the soul of this machine - the Universe. It's not that God is the sum of all the matter and energy here, just like we are not just the sum of all the atoms in out bodies. God is the devine driving power or ultimate force which makes the Universe go round, e.g. love some people would say.

I've been to a few Wiccan/Neo-Pagan gatherings and I agree more with them than with the Christian view of God. A lot of it is a bit mumbo-jumbo-ish but the basic ideals seem sound.

My aunt is the High Priestess Witch in her covern, I visit her from time to time, she's 54 but looks about 30, due to how well she's looked after herself over the years, eating nothing but naturaly grown plants and stuff.

I've also gone to some tribal gatherings of young people who "celerbrate" and give thanks to the spirit of the earth through dance, i.e. they see their dances and drum playing as an offering to the plannet so to speak. Sounds very hippy like, but it fits in with the Wiccan ideas well.

These "New Age" people seem to be grasping at somthing, a higher power for good, and giving it respect, so that must be a good thing.

It's interesting that so many young people are having the same ideas about faith, and being drawn to this "New Age" type Wiccan/Neo-Pagan style of worship. I.e. Worshipping the Earth/Universe as a being, drawing on "The power of the Ancients". I mean, we can't all be having these ideas without there being some truth in it can we?

Dan...

Oh Dan - I plead with you to take a step back and think. Satan is a liar John 8:44 and the first thought you are going to get now that I just said this will be one of contempt. He will deceive you into thinking something is "sound" or "seems logical" or "fits into the natural course of things" when it is in direct violation to the law of God. Please stay away from the wiccan/neo-pagan gatherings as they will lead to more deception and strongholds within your mind. Read Revelation 12 from scripture and meditate on what the goal of Satan is - he is the deceiver of nations. Right now I imagine that you're going to be getting about 50 thoughts in your head about how silly or stupid what I'm saying sounds. Did you ever take a step back and wonder sometimes where those assertions or accusations come from? It happens to me on a daily basis - a tempting thought, "Maybe you should just give up" "You're always going to be this way" "Maybe you should go out and get wasted tonight" "Maybe you should just give in and look at pornography" "Are you sure that's true?" "There's nothing wrong with this." In the midst of the chaos and confusion you will hear one ever quiet voice that humbly sits as judge over all your thoughts/actions. Your conscience will speak either accusing or else excusing a thought or action. It's your responsibility to choose good over evil. And don't let the devil (what you'd consider your own thoughts or reasoning) define what truth is for you - he will deceive you into thinking lying/stealing/even lusting are ok. He will try to overwhelm your conscience when you use God's name in replace of a four letter filth word. Please don't be ignorant of his devices or believe that the basic ideal of the devil is "unsound". You believe in a higher power for good - great, the devils or demons believe that there is one high power (God) and they tremble James 2:19 . Please be sober when you meditate upon these things as the devil will try to cloud your mind as soon as possible. Look towards the truth that will dispell his lies - the word of God.

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. 1 Sam 15:23 , 2 Chron 33:6 , Galatians 5:19-21 .

DanS wrote:It's interesting that so many young people are having the same ideas about faith, and being drawn to this "New Age" type Wiccan/Neo-Pagan style of worship. I.e. Worshipping the Earth/Universe as a being, drawing on "The power of the Ancients". I mean, we can't all be having these ideas without there being some truth in it can we?

I agree with Premo on this one entirely...

Please understand that I'm NOT saying you're crazy or that the 'power of the ancients' is a myth and doesn't exist. There's no doubt in my mind that people devout in witchcraft can wield and experience real power. But understand that this power is directly from Satan - he uses it to deceive people into thinking just what you said - "I know there must be something to it." Indeed there is, but it's evil and it's a deception. Though it's NOT a phantom; Satan's power is real and great - but it's nothing in the face of God.

I feel very sorry for your circumstance, because with those close to you on the path they're on, it will be very difficult for you to a) see the truth, and b) accept the truth. What would your Aunt say if she found out that you were a born-again Christian?

On the flip side, if you continue down this path (and I pray you will) what you will witness is spiritual warfare and that can have the effect of confirming your faith and changing those around you. Stories abound about how witches will lose their powers in the presence of a man of God. So if you ever did decide that maybe Christian's are on the right track, you would be well-advised to immediately seek spiritual help from a pastor and other strong Christians, because I guarantee that Satan would ambush your new faith, and likely do it with the help of your Aunt.

Furthermore, with the involvement of your Aunt with Satan, his demonic forces have been (and will continue to be) near to you and it'll be extremely difficult for you to see the truth as Premo has pleaded you to do. To that end, any Christians who read this should say a prayer to free you from that bond. Rest assured though, should you turn to God, you WILL immediately be freed from that bond, and Satan will have no power over you.

1 John 4:3-4
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

DanS wrote:Firstly, let me strighten some things out, I don't believe I am a "God" or posess the power to wield any "Godly" powers. What I was saying is, I think the Universe should be considered as one object, to which we are all essential parts, like the cogs in a machine. "God" should be considered as the soul of this machine - the Universe. It's not that God is the sum of all the matter and energy here, just like we are not just the sum of all the atoms in out bodies. God is the devine driving power or ultimate force which makes the Universe go round, e.g. love some people would say.

Would you say this "force" you equate as god, feels? How? It seems you are making the case that whatever caused the Big Bang is this force. I would then wonder what necessity is there in "praising" this force in dance, song, chants...whatever goes on in a Wiccan/Neo-Pagan gathering.

DanS wrote:I've been to a few Wiccan/Neo-Pagan gatherings and I agree more with them than with the Christian view of God. A lot of it is a bit mumbo-jumbo-ish but the basic ideals seem sound.

What are these basic ideas...and what do you find to be "mumbo-jumbo-ish?"

DanS wrote:My aunt is the High Priestess Witch in her covern, I visit her from time to time, she's 54 but looks about 30, due to how well she's looked after herself over the years, eating nothing but naturaly grown plants and stuff.

While I wouldn't advocate her spiritual beliefs, I find irony that a person that worships the earth would find it more healthful to stay away from meats...but this comment is in regard to another thread.

DanS wrote:I've also gone to some tribal gatherings of young people who "celerbrate" and give thanks to the spirit of the earth through dance, i.e. they see their dances and drum playing as an offering to the plannet so to speak. Sounds very hippy like, but it fits in with the Wiccan ideas well.

Do the Wiccan ideas promote an earth that "feels" their celebration and thanks? What is the purpose of the gatherings? Is it for personal or corporate gain?

DanS wrote:These "New Age" people seem to be grasping at somthing, a higher power for good, and giving it respect, so that must be a good thing.

It's interesting that so many young people are having the same ideas about faith, and being drawn to this "New Age" type Wiccan/Neo-Pagan style of worship. I.e. Worshipping the Earth/Universe as a being, drawing on "The power of the Ancients". I mean, we can't all be having these ideas without there being some truth in it can we?

This New Age stuff is just for the anarchist who needs something to worship without that something imposing some guidelines. When you're a Wiccan/Neo-Pagan, Mother Nature's rules are subjective...each believer makes his/her own set.
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