Evidence for God from Science

Veronica wrote: "IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

"[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . ." (Ex. 25:18-19).

"You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked" (Ex. 26:1).

"He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers" (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).

"And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about" (1 Kgs. 7:36)." (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9401vbv.asp)

"[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east" (1 Kgs. 7:25).

"The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.' So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole" (Num. 21:8-9).

vdiaz212 wrote:My intentions are not to attack any churches and their teachings. My concern is simply finding a place where I can learn about Christs teachings. Nothing more... Nothing less. (not trying to sound upset or anything) =) Byblos, I'll take your advice and look into a non-denominational church and start from there. I thank you and every one else who posted to address my concerns.

Byblos wrote:... Catholics do not believe in any way, shape or form that Mary and the saints are dead. They are very much alive in Christ and, therefore, the practice creates no biblical contradiction.

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:... Catholics do not believe in any way, shape or form that Mary and the saints are dead. They are very much alive in Christ and, therefore, the practice creates no biblical contradiction.

This requires a definition of 'dead' which does not appear to be revealed in Scripture.

Fortigurn wrote:

Veronica wrote: "IN Exodus 20:3-6 God forbids making graven images for the purpose of idolatry but does not forbid the making of graven images per se. Elsewhere he commands that statues and other graven images be carved for religious purposes. The Catholic Church permits statues because they remind us of unseen things, but it condemns the idolatry of statue worship.

"[The Lord said] make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. . ." (Ex. 25:18-19).

"You shall make the tabernacle with . . . cherubim skillfully worked" (Ex. 26:1).

"He made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the Temple . . . And he overlaid the cherubim with gold. He carved all the walls of the Temple round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers" (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27-29).

"And on the surfaces of its stays and on its panels, he carved cherubim, lions, and palm trees, according to the space of each, with wreaths round about" (1 Kgs. 7:36)." (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9401vbv.asp)

Please note that these were hidden from the eyes of the people. Only the priests saw them. Not only that, but they were never described as objects of worship or veneration.

"[The brazen sea] stood upon [statues of] twelve oxen, three facing north, three facing west, three facing south, and three facing east" (1 Kgs. 7:25).

This is not described as an object of worship or veneration.

"The Lord said to Moses, `Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.' So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole" (Num. 21:8-9).

This isn't described a an objection of worship or veneration either. In fact when Israel did start worshipping it, Hezekiah destroyed it.

Byblos wrote:You are right, they are not objects of neither worship nor veneration. That is precisely why Veronica is quoting them. To show that statues are permissable scripturally without them becoming the objects of worship. That was the point.

Byblos wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:... Catholics do not believe in any way, shape or form that Mary and the saints are dead. They are very much alive in Christ and, therefore, the practice creates no biblical contradiction.

This requires a definition of 'dead' which does not appear to be revealed in Scripture.

Is that something like asking what the definition of 'is' is?

Well, it 'is' very simple IMO. The same way Jesus died and was resurrected so we can have eternal life is the same we believe Mary and the saints were resurrected in spirit and are with Jesus and the same way we believe we will be resurrected in Christ after we die. That is the heart and soul of Christianity.

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:... Catholics do not believe in any way, shape or form that Mary and the saints are dead. They are very much alive in Christ and, therefore, the practice creates no biblical contradiction.

This requires a definition of 'dead' which does not appear to be revealed in Scripture.

Is that something like asking what the definition of 'is' is?

No, the word 'dead' is under view here.

Well, it 'is' very simple IMO. The same way Jesus died and was resurrected so we can have eternal life is the same we believe Mary and the saints were resurrected in spirit and are with Jesus and the same way we believe we will be resurrected in Christ after we die. That is the heart and soul of Christianity.

Scripture please for 'resurrected in spirit and are with Jesus'.

Byblos wrote:Aside from the resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is too obvious to recite), here are a few quotes from a multitude of scriptural evidence.

Speaking of what happens to a person when they die, Paul wrote:

1. "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."-2 Corinthians 5 (NIV)

2. "I am torn two ways: what I should like is to depart and be with Christ... but for your sake there is greater need for me to stay on in the body." -Philippians 1:23 (NEB)

Before he was beheaded, Paul wrote:

3. "the time of my release is here." -2 Timothy 4:6 (IB)

In the above Paul is saying when a person dies, they leave their body behind and go to be with the Lord in heaven.

Quotes written by Peter:

4. "I think it right, as long as I am in the body, to arouse you by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me..." - 2 Peter 1:13 (RSV)

The above is also consistent with the Jewish book of Ecclesiastes, by the way, where we see:

5. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."-Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

If you would like more please let me know.

Psalm 6:
5For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?

Psalm 115:
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 12:
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

New American Bible:
7And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it.

Revised Standard Version:
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.

Contemporary English Version:
7So our bodies return to the earth, and the life-giving breath returns to God.

Today's English Version:
7Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.

Psalm 146:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The Living Bible:
4for every man must die. His breathing stops, life ends, and in a moment all he planned for himself is ended.

New American Bible:
4 When they breathe their last, they return to the earth; that day all their planning comes to nothing.

New Living Translation:
4When their breathing stops, they return to the earth, and in a moment all their plans come to an end.

New Revised Standard Version:
4 When their breath departs, they return to the earth; on that very day their plans perish.

Revised Standard Version:
4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:Aside from the resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is too obvious to recite), here are a few quotes from a multitude of scriptural evidence.

How does the resurrection of Christ prove that 'Mary and the saints were resurrected in spirit and are with Jesus'?

Speaking of what happens to a person when they die, Paul wrote:

1. "Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands."-2 Corinthians 5 (NIV)

2. "I am torn two ways: what I should like is to depart and be with Christ... but for your sake there is greater need for me to stay on in the body." -Philippians 1:23 (NEB)

Where do either of these passages say anything about 'Mary and the saints were resurrected in spirit and are with Jesus'?

Before he was beheaded, Paul wrote:

3. "the time of my release is here." -2 Timothy 4:6 (IB)

In the above Paul is saying when a person dies, they leave their body behind and go to be with the Lord in heaven.

That is a strange conclusion to draw, since Paul nowhere mentions heaven, and says nothing about a person leaving their body behind and going anywhere when they die.

Quotes written by Peter:

4. "I think it right, as long as I am in the body, to arouse you by way of reminder, since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me..." - 2 Peter 1:13 (RSV)

The above is also consistent with the Jewish book of Ecclesiastes, by the way, where we see:

5. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."-Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)

What do you think these passages are saying?

If you would like more please let me know.

May I provide some of my own?

Psalm 6:
5For in death there is no remembrance of Thee: in the grave who shall give Thee thanks?

Psalm 115:
17The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:
5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Ecclesiastes 12:
7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

New American Bible:
7And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath returns to God who gave it.

Revised Standard Version:
7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the breath returns to God who gave it.

Contemporary English Version:
7So our bodies return to the earth, and the life-giving breath returns to God.

Today's English Version:
7Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us.

Psalm 146:
3Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The Living Bible:
4for every man must die. His breathing stops, life ends, and in a moment all he planned for himself is ended.

New American Bible:
4 When they breathe their last, they return to the earth; that day all their planning comes to nothing.

New Living Translation:
4When their breathing stops, they return to the earth, and in a moment all their plans come to an end.

New Revised Standard Version:
4 When their breath departs, they return to the earth; on that very day their plans perish.

Revised Standard Version:
4 When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Byblos wrote:This is a personal thought I just wanted to share with you: If I am to doubt that Mary, Peter and Paul (and the rest of the old gang) are in heaven with Jesus, what hope do I have left for myself?

Job 19:
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God,
27 whom I will see for myself, and whom my own eyes will behold, and not another.

Daniel 12:
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:
28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.

John 11:
23 Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”
24 Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Luke 14:
13 But when you host an elaborate meal, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind.
14 Then you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:
15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 11:
35 …But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life.

Acts 4:
1 While Peter and John were speaking to the people, the priests and the commander of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to them,
2 angry because they were teaching the people and announcing in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:
10 My aim is to know him, [Christ] to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

In any case, you seem to be looking for specific passages that explicitly state that Mary and the saints are with Jesus.

Well, let me ask you this, where does it specifically say they are not?

This has always been a point of contention among the various Christian denominations: i.e. the literal and strict interpretation of the Bible.

This argument boils down to one thing and that is you believe if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible then it it must not be so.

My side is that unless it is explicitly stated then it can be so.

I can provide an additional 50 verses to counter yours...

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:This is a personal thought I just wanted to share with you: If I am to doubt that Mary, Peter and Paul (and the rest of the old gang) are in heaven with Jesus, what hope do I have left for myself?

Do you have any problem with the hope of the resurrection?

Fortigurn wrote:

Job 19:
26 And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God,
27 whom I will see for myself, and whom my own eyes will behold, and not another.

Daniel 12:
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:
28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation.

John 11:
23 Jesus replied, “Your brother will come back to life again.”
24 Martha said, “I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Luke 14:
13 But when you host an elaborate meal, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind.
14 Then you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Acts 24:
15 I have a hope in God (a hope that these men themselves accept too) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 11:
35 …But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life.

Acts 4:
1 While Peter and John were speaking to the people, the priests and the commander of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to them,
2 angry because they were teaching the people and announcing in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

Philippians 3:
10 My aim is to know him, [Christ] to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings, and to be like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

It seems a very good hope to me.

Fortigurn wrote:

In any case, you seem to be looking for specific passages that explicitly state that Mary and the saints are with Jesus.

Well it would help, since you made the claim.

Fortigurn wrote:

Well, let me ask you this, where does it specifically say they are not?

That is an argument from silence, and is therefore invalid. Having said which, the Bible teaches that when people die they go into the grave and are unconscious.

Fortigurn wrote:

This has always been a point of contention among the various Christian denominations: i.e. the literal and strict interpretation of the Bible.

I don't think that this has anything to do with ' the literal and strict interpretation of the Bible'. It's a matter of RC tradition versus the Bible.

Fortigurn wrote:

This argument boils down to one thing and that is you believe if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible then it it must not be so.

No that is not what I am arguing.

Fortigurn wrote:

My side is that unless it is explicitly stated then it can be so.

That's an argument from silence.

Fortigurn wrote:

I can provide an additional 50 verses to counter yours...

No you can't. You couldn't even provide me with a single verse saying that Mary and the saints are 'alive' in heaven, let alone a verse saying that they were 'resurrected in the spirit'.

Byblos wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:

Byblos wrote:This is a personal thought I just wanted to share with you: If I am to doubt that Mary, Peter and Paul (and the rest of the old gang) are in heaven with Jesus, what hope do I have left for myself?

Do you have any problem with the hope of the resurrection?

It was a mere observation. You are taking it too literally.

Every quote you provided bolsters my case, not yours as they are evidence of resurrection after death, a case I made for Mary and the saints (or are they not entitled because they are deemed catholic?).

I made no claim that the bible states that Mary and the saints are alive in Christ.

I made the claim that that is the central teaching of christianity and as such Mary and the saints benefited from that.

All of your quotes (and mine) prove that.

Fortigurn wrote:

Well, let me ask you this, where does it specifically say they are not?

That is an argument from silence, and is therefore invalid. Having said which, the Bible teaches that when people die they go into the grave and are unconscious.

Your opinion, I disagree with it (or am I not entitled to because I'm Catholic?)

And your contention is what? That the RCC does not believe in the bible? That is an old and tiring catholic-basing argument.

Just because you disagree with it does not make you right.

I am not contending you are wrong, I am contending you have a different opinion and you are entitled to it.

It would be nice if you can afford me the same curtesy.

Fortigurn wrote:

This argument boils down to one thing and that is you believe if it is not explicitly stated in the Bible then it it must not be so.

No that is not what I am arguing.

That is how I see it.

Fortigurn wrote:

My side is that unless it is explicitly stated then it can be so.

That's an argument from silence.

Again, a matter of opinion.

That is not a matter of opinion. I suggest you look up the definition of 'argument from silence'. It is an argument resting on the absence of evidence.

Fortigurn wrote:

I can provide an additional 50 verses to counter yours...

No you can't. You couldn't even provide me with a single verse saying that Mary and the saints are 'alive' in heaven, let alone a verse saying that they were 'resurrected in the spirit'.

[/quite]

I did but you chose to ignore them all, I have no reason to believe you will not ignore the rest.

Felgar wrote:I'm not sure it's conclusive but I think the evidence leans toward our immortal soul moving on to heaven when we die.

First there's plenty of anecdotal evidence of people who have been dead, seen heaven, and then sent back to Earth. Some are scams but I don't think they all are.

The story of the rich man in Hell seems to indicate that something does happen between death and the resurrection. It also indicates that events are still occuring on Earth, and those events are certainly before the end times as the rich man is concerned for his immediate family.

Revelations 6:9-11 would indicate that former humans are present and aware in heaven.

They are told to wait until more die, which would prove that the resurrection hadn't yet taken place. The chronology of Revelations itself also indicates that the resurrection is yet to happen.

And it doesn't make sense to me that a select few would be taken alive if there's no one else in heaven.

John 3
13 No one has ascended into heaven (except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man).

Acts 2:
29 “Brothers, I can speak confidently to you about our forefather David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
34 For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says,
'The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand
35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”'

Finally, it seems obvious if Satan and his followers are to suffer for eternity that we cannot die. If being completely seperated from God still does not stop perception and existance, then neither would the death of our bodies IMO.