Evidence for God from Science

I just want to begin by saying that I'm new here. I use to believe in god (kind of but not really, I was too young to really think about the world etc) but I am now I don't really believe in anything.

I'm probably an atheist but I believe that there might be a god. Not a christian god or anything. I use the term god to describe someone who is in a way all knowing and all that stuff. I also think that if a christian god does exist, then the bible is flawed and that the concepts of hell, heaven, god etc have been twisted throughout many years.

Anyway, these are my questions. I found some of the answers on the site to be inadequate so I thought I'd ask here. I also enjoy discussions about god:D

Why does god not show himself?

If god said "let there be light...". Who recorded this information and how? Pen and paper? Did people communicate this information through english?
If they communicated this information through english, does it not suggest that mankind did not evolve?

How is god magical and yet all our understandings of the universe prohibit the notion of magic?

Does the theory of the big bang not disprove god's existence?

What was god's purpose in creating humans?

If god is all knowing, why did he knowingly subject Jesus to pain (wouldn't god have known jesus would be sent to the cross?) by giving life to Jesus?

Why do christians cry when people that are close to them, die? Aren't the dead going to a better place? Aren't the mourners happy for the dead? (not really about god's existence but it's about how some people claim to be christians only because they are scared that if heaven/hell does exist then they would go to hell if they didn't believe in god, so they take the safe side and believe in god anyway)

Pls don't do this. Why don't people kill themselves to go to heaven straight away? (are they scared that heaven/hell might not exist and that they'd rather be alive than take the risk that heaven/hell might exist?)

Is god referred to as a 'He'? If so, is he actually a male according to the bible?

I use to not exist (i.e. before I was born). What happened to me before then according to the bible? Did I just cease to exist? Or was I previously in heaven/hell already?

Isn't the purpose of christianity to give people a sense of security and hope. A sense of security in that people would live happier knowing that there is life after death.

Didn't some famous people listed on the main site like Isaac Newton not believe in the christian god? I thought that he believed in a god that was separate from the one associated with christianity? In fact I'm pretty sure he did. It seems unlike him to just believe god exists just because everyone else did at that time.

EDIT:Forgot to include one question. If someone said, god communicated with my last night. Would you believe him? Wouldn't most people just think he's mentally ill?

EDIT: another question I forgot. If god is all knowing, why did god create some humans to be able to be homosexual. Does he not despise homosexuality?

EDIT: sorry about all these EDITS but I keep coming across so many questions. If god is all knowing, does this not suggest that we have a destiny and that we do not really have free will?

Hopefully none of the answers are like some of my friends answers like: God has his ways, It's too complicated for you to understand, God wants us to believe in him through faith.

Thanks in advance, I look forward to constructive answers.

Decided to make a poll because I don't think many christians really believe in god. I call them fakes.

It seems to me you have firmly already gravitated to one side, and when people do that, they are generally more interested in debating there opinion rather than listening to a response. So may I ask what is the reason for your post?

Kurieuo

I posted this because I feel that my assumptions are not entirely correct and would prefer to base my judgement on correct assumptions rather than ones I have thought of.

And also to see if there's anything that may convince me to convert to christianity.

Wow now there is a list of questions.

IF you are genuine in finding God you will. Certianly if God were capable of creating the heavens and the earth, he would be capable of causing a few of his creations to write a book about it.

OF course their is a God, so much dictates it. Who could understand him, how can any of us speak for him, unless he came and said to?

Jesus said that we should go and tell other people the Good news, should tell people that promises about God written in the oldest records man made have been fulfilled. He equates us to fishermen in that we try to tell you things to intice you to believe, he equates us to planters that scatter seed about, and he says that people will believe through the foolishness of preaching.

I don't think there is anyone here that can convince you to be a christian. I don't think you understand what it is like to be a christian because of what you say about pretend christians and such.

We are all flesh, you should understand what makes me tick, because you are largely the same.

The Spirit of God is what convinces, and I wan't to assure you that Jesus says that Satan will come along and try to snatch away the seed.

Just be assured that if you truly seek God, that he promises to reaveal himself to you.

I think you will get better response if you are more specific and direct with what you want to know.

You appear to be overwhelmed by questions. If you trust God and accept his Word I know he will answer them for you.

Why do christians cry when people that are close to them, die? Aren't the dead going to a better place? Aren't the mourners happy for the dead? (not really about god's existence but it's about how some people claim to be christians only because they are scared that if heaven/hell does exist then they would go to hell if they didn't believe in god, so they take the safe side and believe in god anyway)

I decided to weigh in one piece at a time. Why do we cry when someone dies? Because we are uniquely human, you miss someone when they die there are things that are left undone, unsaid, not felt. Things that you no longer have the time to do. I'm sorry I take this one personally. Do you NOT cry?? you said why do christians cry.. do you not feel sadness or pain when someone dies? Yes we believe they have gone on to a better place and one without the pain and suffering that they were possibly having in this world (depending on how they died), but you still MISS them. I'm not scared and therefore have to believe in God, I chose to believe just as you are possibly choosing to not believe. God gave mankind a choice, he didn't make people slaves to his will. BTW people use the masculine "he" instead of "she or it" because of the trinity "the father, the son, and the holy ghost" If you used to believe in God and used to read the bible you would have come across this phrase before.
(sorry forgot to add this before) I'm Irish... we have wakes which celebrate the persons life. What exactly do you do when someone dies?

I don't have a lot of time, so I'm just providing one-paragraph summary answers of the questions. Hopefully I'll have time to respond if you find anything confusing or insufficient.

erzeon wrote:Why does god not show himself?

That's an interesting question, and a somewhat difficult one. However, I would say that in some ways God does show Himself. He shows up through changed lives (freedom from old, sinful ways) and through nature.

Are you wondering why He doesn't show himself physically? Well, we can reasonably conclude from the fact that he is omnipresent that He is not a physical entity as we might think. He would have to exist in some other realm or dimension. Thus, to speak of Him showing Himself physically would be almost meaningless. Short of an incarnation into some sort of physical being. But the Bible teaches that that actually did happen through the person of Jesus Christ. So the answer would still be that he does/did.

erzeon wrote:If god said "let there be light...". Who recorded this information and how?

Moses was the person who wrote the record down. We hold that God somehow inspired Moses to write what he wrote, otherwise Moses could not have known. The specific details are unknown. People have speculated anything from direct word-for-word dication from God, to a vision from God given to Moses. I don't claim to know the answer.

erzeon wrote:Pen and paper?

Not modern pen and paper as we would think of today, no. I don't know a whole lot about ancient writing systems at the time. It may well have involved Egyptian papyrus.

erzeon wrote:Did people communicate this information through english?

Not initially, as English didn't exist at the time. It was written in ancient Hebrew, the language Moses spoke. Modern Hebrew is derived from ancient Hebrew but is of course quite different. No modern language I am aware of is identical to any ancient language. Language changes over time. Try translating "Internet" into ancient Greek.

The first translation of the Bible into English that I am aware of (without looking at a reference) would probably be William Tyndale's translation effort (1500s, if I recall correctly). The first widespread translation in English was probably the King James Version of 1611. Now there are many translations into English, with new ones in the works all the time.

erzeon wrote:How is god magical and yet all our understandings of the universe prohibit the notion of magic?

"Magical" is probably not an appropriate term to describe God. "Supernatural" is closer. Nothing in our understanding of the universe can disprove the existence of the supernatural. Science in particular is typically defined as only seeking natural causes, so as such we have defined the supernatural out of existence (if we are to consider science the final word), rather than proving so. I would say that this is fallacious because science is not the only final word. Other methods of study are also legitimate.

erzeon wrote:Does the theory of the big bang not disprove god's existence?

If anything, it does quite the opposite. The Big Bang theory demonstrated that the universe had a beginning. It does not address its cause, but in fact can be argued to prove the necessity of a cause. This cause is often identified as God. (I am not claiming that the Big Bang theory by itself is enough to prove Christianity, of course.)

erzeon wrote:What was god's purpose in creating humans?

We don't necessarily know this for sure, but many theologians believe that God created humans for relationship with Him, and for companionship.

erzeon wrote:If god is all knowing, why did he knowingly subject Jesus to pain (wouldn't god have known jesus would be sent to the cross?) by giving life to Jesus?

Not only did God know about the cross, but that was the primary reason He sent Jesus. The death of Jesus provided "atonement". What this basically means is that Jesus's death made Heaven possible for humans who had sinned, something which would otherwise not be possible. More importantly, it allowed people to get past their sin and live good, fulfilling lives. That's the three sentence version.

erzeon wrote:Why do christians cry when people that are close to them, die? Aren't the dead going to a better place? Aren't the mourners happy for the dead? (not really about god's existence but it's about how some people claim to be christians only because they are scared that if heaven/hell does exist then they would go to hell if they didn't believe in god, so they take the safe side and believe in god anyway)

In many cases, they could also be crying because they themselves will not be able to talk to their loved ones until their own deaths. They cry from missing the person. Same reason parents cry when their kids go off to college, even though it won't be the last time they will see their kids.

erzeon wrote:Why don't people kill themselves to go to heaven straight away? (are they scared that heaven/hell might not exist and that they'd rather be alive than take the risk that heaven/hell might exist?)

Christianity is about more than Heaven and Hell. Someone who would accept Christ just so he/she could kill him/herself and go to heaven doesn't understand what Christianity is actually about. It's just as much about living a transformed life of good in this life as it is about the next life. Suicide is generally outside the will of God, and as such isn't generally desired by Christians. (Other problems like depressions can complicate matters, though. Christians aren't perfect.)

erzeon wrote:Is god referred to as a 'He'? If so, is he actually a male according to the bible?

"He" is the pronoun used, yes. However, God doesn't really have gender as we would think of it. The pronoun was probably chosen to emphasize certain qualities of God which were associated with masculinity in Hebrew culture. Leadership, for example. But by God's nature, neither "male" nor "female" as normally defined makes sense when applied to God. I would be making the same error if I asked whether your toaster was male or female. (Not that God is anything like a toaster, just that neither has gender.)

erzeon wrote:I use to not exist (i.e. before I was born). What happened to me before then according to the bible? Did I just cease to exist? Or was I previously in heaven/hell already?

Nothing happened to you before conception, because you didn't exist yet. You entered existence at conception. That's all there is to it. You can't "cease to exist" if you don't already exist.

erzeon wrote:Isn't the purpose of christianity to give people a sense of security and hope. A sense of security in that people would live happier knowing that there is life after death.

No, because Christianity is just as much about living for God in this life as it is about the next.

erzeon wrote:Didn't some famous people listed on the main site like Isaac Newton not believe in the christian god? I thought that he believed in a god that was separate from the one associated with christianity? In fact I'm pretty sure he did.

I have read (albeit from Wikipedia, not the most scholarly source) that Newton was a Unitarian. In other words, he did not believe in the Christian concept of the Trinity. However, I believe he did adhere to most other Christian doctrines. He could still certainly be said to have believed in the Christian God, he just had some unusual ideas about Him.

erzeon wrote:It seems unlike him to just believe god exists just because everyone else did at that time.

He could have believed based on the evidence instead.

erzeon wrote:EDIT:Forgot to include one question. If someone said, god communicated with my last night. Would you believe him? Wouldn't most people just think he's mentally ill?

Depends on whether there were existing signs of mental illness. In an individual I already believe to be mentally ill, I would of course be quite skeptical. I could also evaluate whether the claimed message from God was at all consistent with the message of the Bible. Because the claim is inherently difficult to verify, I would have to be somewhat skeptical. However, I would not rule out the possibility altogether. I do believe that God does communicate with people.

erzeon wrote:EDIT: another question I forgot. If god is all knowing, why did god create some humans to be able to be homosexual. Does he not despise homosexuality?

God created all humans with the potential to sin. Homosexuality is no worse than other sins. The real question is why God would create humans with the potential to sin in general. This is a complex issue. The most common answer, summarized, is that God gave us free will because only then is true love and meaning possible.

erzeon wrote:EDIT: sorry about all these EDITS but I keep coming across so many questions. If god is all knowing, does this not suggest that we have a destiny and that we do not really have free will?

This is where it actually gets complicated. There are several responses. Calvinists in particular hold that humans don't have free will. (My problem with Calvinism has to do with what I just mentioned - I haven't seen any reasonable explanation for why God allows evil if Calvinism is true.) Others hold that perhaps God doesn't know all about what choices we will make, but that He does know about everything else, including the consequences of all possible choices. A third option is that perhaps foreknowledge is possible without predetermination - that God knows you will choose a given action because you will freely choose that particular action. This assumes that causality (cause and effect) works differently with God than in day-to-day experience. I don't claim to know for certain which solution is correct.

EDIT: another question I forgot. If god is all knowing, why did god create some humans to be able to be homosexual. Does he not despise homosexuality?

Ah, you adhere to the great myth that "gays are born that way"

wow thanks for that massive reply jerickson, it certainly answered a lot of questions. I must say I didn't expect to get such a good and contructive response but I guess I'm wrong.

I think I'm going to have to get me a bible and study it further and I think I may have gone about thinking of God the wrong way.

Since I've hardly ever touched a bible in my life, what bible would be best to look at? I have never read one before, I've only picked one up and took one glance.

erzeon wrote:wow thanks for that massive reply jerickson, it certainly answered a lot of questions. I must say I didn't expect to get such a good and contructive response but I guess I'm wrong.

I guess I was also wrong with my initial impression. My sincere apologies...

Kurieuo

As a Calvinist, I need to clarify this...

jerickson314 wrote:This is where it actually gets complicated. There are several responses. Calvinists in particular hold that humans don't have free will. (My problem with Calvinism has to do with what I just mentioned - I haven't seen any reasonable explanation for why God allows evil if Calvinism is true.)

That not exactly true. Calvinists do believe in the human will. The Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 9 deals with free will. (See http://www.reformed.org/documents/westm ... html#chap9).

What Calvinists hold is that man cannot use his "free will" to get himself saved. The problem is that man's will isn't totally free (even Arminians will acknowledge some limits on free will. Just ask one if it is possible for a person to go a lifetime without committing sin). Man is a slave to sin, by nature a child of wrath. That is why we must be born again. Christians are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13).

erzeon wrote:wow thanks for that massive reply jerickson, it certainly answered a lot of questions. I must say I didn't expect to get such a good and contructive response but I guess I'm wrong.

I'm glad I was able to help you understand better.

erzeon wrote:I think I'm going to have to get me a bible and study it further and I think I may have gone about thinking of God the wrong way.

Since I've hardly ever touched a bible in my life, what bible would be best to look at? I have never read one before, I've only picked one up and took one glance.

The first question is which translation you would like to use. Some translations (like the NASB, or New American Standard Bible) attempt to stay as true as possible to the wording of the original Greek and Hebrew texts. At the opposite end of the spectrum are paraphrases (like Eugene Patterson's The Message), which attempt to get the main ideas out of passages while playing loose with the actual wording. I would not suggest a paraphrase as a first Bible for study, however, as there are enough areas where it just doesn't hold true enough to the actual text.

A good compromise I have seen is the New Living Translation (NLT). It's what's called a "thought for thought" translation, which means that they attempt to capture the literal meaning of sentences as closely as possible while adjusting the word order and sentence structure to fit modern usage. The New International Version (NIV) is another good translation that's reasonably readable.

You may want to consider a study Bible. Study Bibles have notes which give insight into the meaning of the text, often written by scholars. However, do be aware that not all Christians may agree with the study notes, and we do not consider them to be the authoritative word of God. The Life Application Bible (available with several different translations) is a well-known study Bible, though it is probably oriented more towards current Christians. Perhaps someone else on this board can recommend a seeker-friendly study Bible.

Comparative study of different translations can also be helpful. You can get free Bible software with several translations available for free. If you use Windows, e-Sword probably has the best selection. If you're like me and you use Linux (or a Mac, for that matter), a Sword (not related to e-Sword, despite the similarity in naming) frontend will probably be your best bet. I personally use BibleTime, but I'm guessing you're not using Linux. If you don't know what you have, you probably have Windows. The one drawback of free programs is that the publishers of the major translations, like the NLT and NIV, want to be paid for their hard work in translating the text. Therefore, the major translations are not usually available for free in electronic form. e-Sword offers several major translations for pay, but Sword generally only offers older and less common translations. Many churches will give you a free print copy of a modern translation upon request, however.

puritan lad wrote:As a Calvinist, I need to clarify this...

[...]

That not exactly true. Calvinists do believe in the human will. The Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 9 deals with free will. (See http://www.reformed.org/documents/westm ... html#chap9).

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I didn't understand this aspect of Calvinism as well as I thought.

puritan lad wrote:What Calvinists hold is that man cannot use his "free will" to get himself saved. The problem is that man's will isn't totally free (even Arminians will acknowledge some limits on free will. Just ask one if it is possible for a person to go a lifetime without committing sin). Man is a slave to sin, by nature a child of wrath. That is why we must be born again. Christians are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13).

I would generally agree with this position, if I am understanding it correctly. However, I would hold that a man can use his free will to accept Christ and become saved. Being born again, made possible by Christ's sacrifice, is certainly necessary. However, I believe that this will be granted to anyone who makes the free will decision to accept it. I see a problem with a doctrine that has God intentionally creating people he's decided not to allow to be saved.

An interesting series of articles by J.P. Holding on Calvinism vs. Arminianism is here. He concludes that neither is entirely correct. (Incidentally, Holding has a decent series of articles defending preterism here.) I generally do hold to a position that is closer to the Arminian position, though I am not really a hardcore Arminian.

I would prefer a bible that stuck close to the original hebrew text. I live in australia so I'm not sure if the american one is available here.

Thanks jerickson314,

Check out my defense of all 5 points of Calvinism here.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1037.html

Also check out Romans 9:10-23, the scripture that converted me from Arminianism to full-fledged Calvinism.