Evolution and Religion

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary

Evolution and Religion

Post by bizzt »

Just wondering what People thought of this

http://www.uwosh.edu/colleges/cols/reli ... ration.htm
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible — the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark — convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God's good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God's loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
User avatar
Yehren
Established Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:34 am

Post by Yehren »

There are many other opinions, of course, but that pretty much describes the beliefs of the majority of Christians in the world.
Jbuza
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:26 pm

Post by Jbuza »

[Evolution] has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children.
LOL The great evolution is now beyond reproach. Anyone who doesn't belive evolution ever happened must be ignorant. LOL Schmuck!
User avatar
Yehren
Established Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:34 am

Post by Yehren »

The record is pretty clear on that. The more you know about biology, the less likely you are to reject evolution.
User avatar
ryo dokomi
Established Member
Posts: 188
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:10 am
Christian: No
Location: Mizu no kuni o kirigakure no sato
Contact:

Post by ryo dokomi »

that just makes me so mad. seriously, that is just an abomination to the LORD. that Puts Satan to be equal with God, since evolution is satanic. that just....arrrgggghh...*deep breath*...sadly they will be going to Hell if they dont change thier ways to...evolutionary Christianity, my foot.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7

it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19
Jbuza
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1213
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:26 pm

Post by Jbuza »

Yehren wrote:The record is pretty clear on that. The more you know about biology, the less likely you are to reject evolution.
Nope sorry, not true. The more I have learned about biology, the more sure I have become that It is a marvelous creation.

I understand that you might think that creation is for the ignorant Simpletons, and evolution is for the enlightened and educated, but your simply wrong there. EDIT ! ACutally perhaps I am wrong here, I do think there is teaching that salvation comes to the base things of this world, and few mighty are called. Also their is indication that God is going to confound the Wisdom of Man for his own Glory, esp. since they have turned from him. END EDIT !

Perhaps you have failed to recognize that Evolution is tought as truth in science, and the more you are exposed to this brainwashing the more likely you are to believe it. If Biology was married to truth and taught in the context of creation and design, than the more one was exposed to it, it is likely they would be less likely to reject Intelligent diesign, christianity, or God.
Last edited by Jbuza on Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mystical
Valued Member
Posts: 319
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:51 pm

Post by Mystical »

I agree, Jbuza. I used follow evolution like a religion until about two years ago. The more I learned, the clearer everything got. 8)
smrpgx
Acquainted Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 4:06 pm
Christian: No
Location: right behind you
Contact:

Post by smrpgx »

Jbuza wrote:Anyone who doesn't belive evolution ever happened must be ignorant. LOL Schmuck!
It's just the opposite. In fact, evolution has been proven by scientists to not make scientific sense. It's a common rule that if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.

Why do they hold onto it? Why are we still learning about it in school? It's because they don't want the alternative to be true.
User avatar
Yehren
Established Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:34 am

Post by Yehren »

(Yehren notes that people most familiar with biology are more likely to accept evolution)
Nope sorry, not true.
It's true. The vast majority of biologists are evolutionists. Right now, it appears that about 2% of all scientists reject evolution, with the figure much lower for biologists.
I understand that you might think that creation is for the ignorant Simpletons,
Please don't get that idea. There are some very intelligent people who deny evolution. Kurt Wise, for example, has a PhD, and studied under Stephen Gould himself at Harvard. And he's a YE creationist. He just says that he puts his take on the Bible above any possible evidence. He's not stupid. Far from it. He just has a religious objection to the theory.
and evolution is for the enlightened and educated,
It is true that acceptance of evolution is higher among the educated, but that is not a reliable guide. Supposing that all creationists are stupid or ignorant, is neither Christian nor justified by the evidence.
Perhaps you have failed to recognize that Evolution is tought as truth in science, and the more you are exposed to this brainwashing the more likely you are to believe it.
There's a way to test that. Ask a scientist why he supports evolution. If he says "because they told me it's true", then you're right. If he starts citing evidence, then it's something else. Give it a try.
If Biology was married to truth and taught in the context of creation and design, than the more one was exposed to it, it is likely they would be less likely to reject Intelligent diesign, christianity, or God.
Keep in mind, most scientists are theists of some kind or another, most of us Christians. It's not "evolution or God."

I will say that if one follows evolution like religion, then one really knows nothing at all of it, or of science.
henry
Newbie Member
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:02 am

Evolution !!!!

Post by henry »

A scientif fact ? Suppose you try and provide some solid evidence from the origin of an ameoba to human bieng. Evolution is DEAD it never had a hope . Its unrealistic , unworkable , an isoluble theory , That has nothing to offer in answer to how are we ever to cope with SIN. Those fools that call themselves the Clergy and are evolutionist who think they can square up the Bible with such fancy notions , need to be honest with themselves and realise that the Bible stands in judgment of their unbelief.
Such men , stand in the judgment described in the epistle of Jude.
User avatar
Yehren
Established Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:34 am

Post by Yehren »

A scientif fact ? Suppose you try and provide some solid evidence from the origin of an ameoba to human bieng.
That isn't what evolutonary theory predicts. Humans evolved from other primates, not amoebae. Amoebae, BTW, are too highly evolved in their own fashion to have been the ancestors of metazoans.
Evolution is DEAD it never had a hope .
Nope. It's still being directly observed.
Its unrealistic , unworkable , an isoluble theory , That has nothing to offer in answer to how are we ever to cope with SIN.
Neither does metallurgy, or solid state electronics. Science is like that. For values, you need to look elsewhere.
Those fools that call themselves the Clergy and are evolutionist who think they can square up the Bible with such fancy notions , need to be honest with themselves and realise that the Bible stands in judgment of their unbelief.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Be careful. You may not know as much as you assume you do. Listen to God.





Such men , stand in the judgment described in the epistle of Jude.
User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Contact:

Post by puritan lad »

First, to my fellow creationists.

If you are going to debate Yehren on this subject, then I would suggest dealing with the subject itself, rather than attack the individuals who hold the view. After reading every post in this thread, I haven't seen anyone give any decent argument either for or against.

For Yehreh,

From your posts, I assume that you are a "theistic evolutionist". That'll nullify the argument from the issue of origins and the anthropic principle. However, there are two things you've posted that I would like for you to clarify.
Yehren wrote:Humans evolved from other primates, not amoebae.
Do you have any evidence of this? Most evolutionists admit that they cannot find the creature that man is supposed to have evolved from. Seeing how man is the most recent step in evolution, there should be ample evidence of this change in the fossil record. In fact, because of the fossil record, Darwin's original theory has been scrapped for newer theories, such as Punctuated Equilibrium, which, for all intensive purposes, states that the changes in evolution took place too quickly to be observed in the fossil record (which makes me wonder why they believe that the changes ever took place to begin with.)
Yehren wrote:It's still being directly observed.
Can you please provide specifics? What I observe is quite different. For example, we see the limits of selective breeding in the case of dogs. While all types and sizes of dogs have a common ancestor, they are all still dogs, and have no sign of becoming anything else. (No to mention that these changes would have never taken place naturally, and those with the most extreme changes would be the first to die off if all dogs were to be released into the wild.)

We also see this in the fossil record. No new phyla has come into existence since the Cambrian Explosion, in which ALL phyla came into existence within a short amount of time. What exactly is being observed today that convinces you that evolution has some merit?
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com/
thereal
Established Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:40 am
Christian: No
Location: Carbondale, IL

Post by thereal »

henry wrote:Evolution is DEAD it never had a hope . Its unrealistic , unworkable , an isoluble theory , That has nothing to offer in answer to how are we ever to cope with SIN.
Mystical wrote:I used follow evolution like a religion until about two years ago.
Evolution and science in general are in no way directly connected to religion. Although people may wish to make religious conclusions based on scientific finding, that is not the intent nor the action of science. I can't see why people attack science because it doesn't give them the spiritual aspects they are looking for...this is not the responsibility of science.
smrpgx wrote:In fact, evolution has been proven by scientists to not make scientific sense. It's a common rule that if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.
Which scientists are "proving" this? Any that actually work in the natural sciences, as opposed to fields such as mathematics where logic is theoretical as opposed to being based on observations of natural occurrences? By the way, your "common rule" is erroneous; many times, when something doesn't make sense, it's because we simply don't understand it well enough. Making a statement as generalized as yours is ill-advised.
Jbuza wrote:Perhaps you have failed to recognize that Evolution is tought as truth in science, and the more you are exposed to this brainwashing the more likely you are to believe it.
If you were taught evolution was a fact, then I apologize on behalf of science. I personally know of no person that teaches evolution as fact, but just because other untestable alternatives are not presented doesn't mean evolution is being taught as fact. It simply means it is the best testable theory we have to explain the observeable.
Jbuza wrote:Anyone who doesn't belive evolution ever happened must be ignorant.
Of the thousands upon thousands of findings supportive of evolution, not ignorant in general...
ryo dokomi wrote:since evolution is satanic
Ridiculous...hope you don't eat fruits and vegetables, as evolutionary theory is one of the bases used to create disease and pest-resistant strains. Or livestock for that matter...hope you don't eat meat either. So I guess if you eat fruits, vegetables, meats, cheeses, etc., you're a devil worshipper? Obviously, I being sarcastic, but only to point out the insanity of a statement like that!
User avatar
August
Old School
Posts: 2402
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:22 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by August »

thereal wrote:If you were taught evolution was a fact, then I apologize on behalf of science. I personally know of no person that teaches evolution as fact, but just because other untestable alternatives are not presented doesn't mean evolution is being taught as fact. It simply means it is the best testable theory we have to explain the observeable
How about Harvard?

Harvard's Ernst Mayr said in an interview that, "...evolution is so clearly a fact that you need to be committed to something like a belief in the supernatural if you are at all in disagreement with evolution. It is a fact and we don't need to prove it anymore" (What Evolution Is by Ernst Mayr — ScienceMasters Series/Basic Books; October 2001, http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/mayr/mayr_print.html)

What about the University of Wisconsin-Madison?
"UW profs: Evolution is a fact

By Aaron Nathans
August 8, 2005
All 33 active members of the biochemistry department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison have signed a letter to a public school system urging them to uphold the teaching of evolution as fact.
The Grantsburg School District voted last year to require teachers to explain the "scientific strengths and weaknesses of evolutionary theory."
In a letter dated July 18, the biochemistry faculty wrote: "Among scientists, there are many discussions and arguments about how evolution came about and the mechanisms that drive it. However, there is NO argument, at least among scientists, about whether evolution occurred. Any assertion to the contrary would be completely false."
The Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction lets each school district decide how to arrange its own curriculum, but it must include evolution.
The Grantsburg School District's superintendent, Joni Burgin, has said the policy allows for critical thinking, and that teaching only evolution is the same as indoctrination. The UW-Madison faculty wrote that teaching creationism alongside evolution in a science class gives students a "confused presentation."
"Scientists accept evolution as fact precisely because of the overwhelming mass of evidence behind it. This evidence has accumulated in countless thousands of carefully refereed and published studies in dozens of scientific disciplines over the last 150 years."
They added: "Science, by definition, does not and cannot deal with supernatural explanations."
One member of the faculty could not be found to sign the letter, the department said."
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com
User avatar
Yehren
Established Member
Posts: 109
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 11:34 am

Post by Yehren »

(Yehren observes that man evolved from other primates, not amoebae)
Do you have any evidence of this?
Yep. The evidence consists of fossil evidence, molecular evidence, genetics, and a few other things. What would you like to hear about first?
Most evolutionists admit that they cannot find the creature that man is supposed to have evolved from.
Depends on what you call a "man." Our particular species (and Neandertals, which have a common ancestor with us) evolved from Homo erectus. There is a rather gradual change over time from H. erectus to H. sapiens. Some scientists think the intermediates between H. erectus and H. sapiens deserve a species designation, others don't.
Seeing how man is the most recent step in evolution,
Nope. Polar bears are more recent, for example.
there should be ample evidence of this change in the fossil record.
Right. The transitions in the past millon years or so are pretty abundant, considering how rarely humans actually fossilize.
In fact, because of the fossil record, Darwin's original theory has been scrapped for newer theories, such as Punctuated Equilibrium,
Nope. Even Gould, who first proposed Punctuated Equillibrium, described himself as a Darwinist. Even Darwin's associate, Huxley described how Darwinian theory predicted saltation.
which, for all intensive purposes, states that the changes in evolution took place too quickly to be observed in the fossil record
Almost. The theory got it's start when Ernst Mayr noticed that aberrant species often lived in geographically isolated places. The observations of a "founder effect"(small groups often by chance had allele distributions that were different than the main population) by the population geneticists was another clue.

So it became apparent that many speciations occur when a small, and perhaps genetically different sub population becomes isolated, and natural selection changes this small population over a relatively short time.

But the small size and limited distribution of the population makes it even more unlikely to leave fossils.
(which makes me wonder why they believe that the changes ever took place to begin with.)
Mostly, because they have examples from other lines of fossils which were numerous, widely distributed, and readily fossilized.

Yehren observes:
It's still being directly observed.
Can you please provide specifics?
Sure, the first example of directly obsrved macroevolution was the evolution of a new species of primrose by DeVries early in the last century.
What I observe is quite different. For example, we see the limits of selective breeding in the case of dogs.
I don't see any limit. New breeds are constantly being produced. Speciations in mammals takes a long time, but the Faroe Island mouse evolved in a few hundred years, an eyeblink in the Earth's history.
We also see this in the fossil record. No new phyla has come into existence since the Cambrian Explosion, in which ALL phyla came into existence within a short amount of time.
No. There are phyla for which we have no record until well after the Cambrian, and there are phyla which arose before the Cambrian. The Ediacaran fauna was widespread and varied, and some of those phyla have survived to modern times.

Most phyla appeared in the Cambrian, or very close to it, however. It appears that the gradual evolution of body armor, having reached the level of complete exoskeletons in the early Cambrian, allowed a rapid diversifiction into previously nonexistant niches.
What exactly is being observed today that convinces you that evolution has some merit?
Natural selection, speciation, ring species, and many other things. Here's a few specific ones:

In therapsid reptiles, (as in all reptiles) the bones in the lower jaw are connected to the ear, and transmitt vibrations from the ground to the "stapes." Over time, we see the bones becoming smaller in these animals, eventually the formation of a second, mammalian jaw joint and the disarticulation of the back bones from the dentary occurs. These small bones then reduce even further in size, but continue to be attached to the stapes, forming the malleus and the incus.

Not long ago, I was surprised and pleased to see that these tiny bones are attached to the jaw of a fetal opossum precisely as they are in the therapisid reptile Thrnaxodon. Later in development, they migrate to the usual mammalian place.

And a little while ago, in the bones of a T-rex, scientists found a little hemoglobin. Injected into a lab animal, it produced antibodies that reacted most strongly with that of a bird, rather than other reptiles. Precisely what evolutionary theory predicts.

There are hundreds of little facts like that, woven into a tough, durable fabric that makes any naysaying pointless. The more one learns, the more facts like this accumulate.

Come and see.
Post Reply