Evidence for God from Science

Have fun watching this.

This only shows they are capable of using tools like any other animal, but since our "friends", the evolutionists, like to claim the apes and now gorillas are our ancestors, they assume we are closer than ever. How does this prove evolution from watching the video? I have researched the tools that evolutionists say are now what we used to show we evolved. It's probably going to change again. Animals use tools, big deal! How else are they going to survive? Besides, the people in the video claim they have never seen this before, yet it probably still happened before they actually did see it happen. Again, they make assumptions. They should track down EVERY gorilla if they want really strong evidence, but to me, this still isn't evidence for "ape to man" evolution.

Thinker wrote:Have fun watching this.

This only shows they are capable of using tools like any other animal, but since our "friends", the evolutionists, like to claim the apes and now gorillas are our ancestors, they assume we are closer than ever. How does this prove evolution from watching the video? I have researched the tools that evolutionists say are now what we used to show we evolved. It's probably going to change again. Animals use tools, big deal! How else are they going to survive? Besides, the people in the video claim they have never seen this before, yet it probably still happened before they actually did see it happen. Again, they make assumptions. They should track down EVERY gorilla if they want really strong evidence, but to me, this still isn't evidence for "ape to man" evolution.

I don't think the significance for this is an evolutionary link between man and ape.

The significance is that the Gorilla must have some cognitive capabilities, which previously they were not thought to possess.

Using a tool requires imagintion.
A goal has to be imagined. With out it the chances of an animal mindlessly using a tool are low. Repeated use of tools is evidence of this ability.

Would you not say Dolphins have this Same Ability?

bizzt wrote:Would you not say Dolphins have this Same Ability?

I beleive they have shown the ability, and more. However tool use in the wild is not documented for dolphins.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

bizzt wrote:Would you not say Dolphins have this Same Ability?

I beleive they have shown the ability, and more. However tool use in the wild is not documented for dolphins.

You need the brains and the body to use tools. Not much you can do with a flipper.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Thinker wrote:Have fun watching this.

This only shows they are capable of using tools like any other animal, but since our "friends", the evolutionists, like to claim the apes and now gorillas are our ancestors, they assume we are closer than ever. How does this prove evolution from watching the video? I have researched the tools that evolutionists say are now what we used to show we evolved. It's probably going to change again. Animals use tools, big deal! How else are they going to survive? Besides, the people in the video claim they have never seen this before, yet it probably still happened before they actually did see it happen. Again, they make assumptions. They should track down EVERY gorilla if they want really strong evidence, but to me, this still isn't evidence for "ape to man" evolution.

I don't think the significance for this is an evolutionary link between man and ape.

The significance is that the Gorilla must have some cognitive capabilities, which previously they were not thought to possess.

Using a tool requires imagintion.
A goal has to be imagined. With out it the chances of an animal mindlessly using a tool are low. Repeated use of tools is evidence of this ability.

I'm not so sure it has anything to do with imagination. I think it has more to do with survival instinct. How different is the gorilla using a stick to make sure it is not going to drown, from a bird making a round, insulated nest to lay its eggs and protect its offspring? I don't see the difference.

I think one difference is that a bird's nest is an extended phonetype. All birds of a species build identical nests irrespective of where they are in the world.

Large brained animals like dolphins and gorillas have habits (such as communication sounds and tool use) that vary from group to group and so are "cultural" in a very primitive sense of the word.

bizzt wrote:Would you not say Dolphins have this Same Ability?

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:However tool use in the wild is not documented for dolphins.

Blob wrote: You need the brains and the body to use tools.

Study: Dolphins Use Sponge as Tool
By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

June 6, 2005— The use of sponges as tools among some dolphins could be the first documented case of a material culture in a marine mammal species.

The behavior, called sponging, involves a dolphin affixing a marine sponge over its snout to protect itself while it pokes and prods for fish on the sea floor. Researchers believe the use of this sponge tool is a fishing technique that mother dolphins teach to their children.

The study is published in this week's Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20 ... lphin.html

Blob wrote:I think one difference is that a bird's nest is an extended phonetype. All birds of a species build identical nests irrespective of where they are in the world.

Large brained animals like dolphins and gorillas have habits (such as communication sounds and tool use) that vary from group to group and so are "cultural" in a very primitive sense of the word.

And how do we know a few million years from now the use of sticks to measure water depth will not become prevalant with gorillas everywhere? The point though was that it was due to survival instinct.

Byblos wrote:

Blob wrote:I think one difference is that a bird's nest is an extended phonetype. All birds of a species build identical nests irrespective of where they are in the world.

Large brained animals like dolphins and gorillas have habits (such as communication sounds and tool use) that vary from group to group and so are "cultural" in a very primitive sense of the word.

And how do we know a few million years from now the use of sticks to measure water depth will not become prevalant with gorillas everywhere? The point though was that it was due to survival instinct.

I suppose it could become prevalent. But the observation would remain the same. The trait I suspect is not instinctual, otherwise it would be more prevalent. I think that if the behaviour were to spread it would do so through imatation. i.e. A learned behaviour.

Survival instinct can lead to many astonishing behaviours. But the behaviours themselves are not instinctual.

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Blob wrote:I think one difference is that a bird's nest is an extended phonetype. All birds of a species build identical nests irrespective of where they are in the world.

Large brained animals like dolphins and gorillas have habits (such as communication sounds and tool use) that vary from group to group and so are "cultural" in a very primitive sense of the word.

And how do we know a few million years from now the use of sticks to measure water depth will not become prevalant with gorillas everywhere? The point though was that it was due to survival instinct.

I suppose it could become prevalent. But the observation would remain the same. The trait I suspect is not instinctual, otherwise it would be more prevalent. I think that if the behaviour were to spread it would do so through imatation. i.e. A learned behaviour.

Survival instinct can lead to many astonishing behaviours. But the behaviours themselves are not instinctual.

Semantics but ok, I will concede the point. That's hardly imagination though.

Crows use cars as tools :

on a university campus in Japan. Carrion crows and humans line up patiently, waiting for the traffic to halt.
When the lights change, the birds hop in front of the cars and place walnuts, which they picked from the adjoining trees, on the road. After the lights turn green again, the birds fly away and vehicles drive over the nuts, cracking them open. Finally, when it's time to cross again, the crows join the pedestrians and pick up their meal.

They also make tools from sticks to obtain grubs:

On the Pacific island of New Caledonia, the crows demonstrate a tool-making, and tool using, capability comparable to Palaeolithic man's. Dr Gavin Hunt, a New Zealand biologist, spent three years observing the birds. He found that they used two different forms of hooked “tool” to pull grubs from deep within tree trunks.

Other birds and some primates have been seen to use objects to forage. But what is unusual here is that the crows also make their own tools. Using their beaks as scissors and snippers, they fashion hooks from twigs, and make barbed, serrated rakes or combs from stiff leathery leaves. And they don't throw the tools away after one use—they carry them from one foraging place to another.

Also:

Another sign of intelligence, thought to be absent in most non-human animals, is the ability to engage in complex, meaningful communication. The work of Professor Irene Pepperberg of the University of Arizona, Tucson, has now shown the general perception of parrots as mindless mimics to be incorrect.
The captive African grey parrot Alex is one of a number of parrots and macaws now believed to have the intelligence and emotional make-up of a 3 to 4 year old child. Under the tutelage of Professor Pepperberg, he acquired a vocabulary of over 100 words. He could say the words for colors and shapes and, apparently, use them meaningfully. He has learned the labels for more than 35 different objects; he knows when to use “no,” and phrases such as “come here”, “I want X,” and “Wanna go Y.”

http://www.pbs.org/lifeofbirds/brain/

I think people just underestimate the intelligence of animals.

Kurieuo

Kurieuo wrote:Crows use cars as tools :

on a university campus in Japan. Carrion crows and humans line up patiently, waiting for the traffic to halt.
When the lights change, the birds hop in front of the cars and place walnuts, which they picked from the adjoining trees, on the road. After the lights turn green again, the birds fly away and vehicles drive over the nuts, cracking them open. Finally, when it's time to cross again, the crows join the pedestrians and pick up their meal.

They also make tools from sticks to obtain grubs:

On the Pacific island of New Caledonia, the crows demonstrate a tool-making, and tool using, capability comparable to Palaeolithic man's. Dr Gavin Hunt, a New Zealand biologist, spent three years observing the birds. He found that they used two different forms of hooked “tool” to pull grubs from deep within tree trunks.

Other birds and some primates have been seen to use objects to forage. But what is unusual here is that the crows also make their own tools. Using their beaks as scissors and snippers, they fashion hooks from twigs, and make barbed, serrated rakes or combs from stiff leathery leaves. And they don't throw the tools away after one use—they carry them from one foraging place to another.

Also:

Another sign of intelligence, thought to be absent in most non-human animals, is the ability to engage in complex, meaningful communication. The work of Professor Irene Pepperberg of the University of Arizona, Tucson, has now shown the general perception of parrots as mindless mimics to be incorrect.
The captive African grey parrot Alex is one of a number of parrots and macaws now believed to have the intelligence and emotional make-up of a 3 to 4 year old child. Under the tutelage of Professor Pepperberg, he acquired a vocabulary of over 100 words. He could say the words for colors and shapes and, apparently, use them meaningfully. He has learned the labels for more than 35 different objects; he knows when to use “no,” and phrases such as “come here”, “I want X,” and “Wanna go Y.”

http://www.pbs.org/lifeofbirds/brain/

I think people just underestimate the intelligence of animals.

Kurieuo

Darn Crows! they are too smart sometimes

Thinker wrote:Have fun watching this.

This only shows they are capable of using tools like any other animal, but since our "friends", the evolutionists, like to claim the apes and now gorillas are our ancestors, they assume we are closer than ever. How does this prove evolution from watching the video? I have researched the tools that evolutionists say are now what we used to show we evolved. It's probably going to change again. Animals use tools, big deal! How else are they going to survive? Besides, the people in the video claim they have never seen this before, yet it probably still happened before they actually did see it happen. Again, they make assumptions. They should track down EVERY gorilla if they want really strong evidence, but to me, this still isn't evidence for "ape to man" evolution.

I'm sorry, but you got most, if not all of your facts wrong.

For one thing, EVERY animal uses tools? What tools does a tiger use? Teeth and claws are not tools. What tools does any non-ape animal use? Nests are not tools, that's just building a bed /cradle.

Another thing, you have a very warped view of evolution. According to evolution, gorillas are not our ancestors. Our ancestors are dead, they went extinct. That is how evolution works, natural selection. We did not come from living apes. However, we came from a common ancestor as apes. Nobody who understands evolution believes we are from living monkeys.

And third, I watched the video all the way through. Not once does it say a single word about evolution, or that we came from gorillas. All it says is that gorillas are similar to us, but it doesn't say gorillas are our ancestors, nor does it say that this proves evolution.

voicingmaster wrote:

Thinker wrote:Have fun watching this.

This only shows they are capable of using tools like any other animal, but since our "friends", the evolutionists, like to claim the apes and now gorillas are our ancestors, they assume we are closer than ever. How does this prove evolution from watching the video? I have researched the tools that evolutionists say are now what we used to show we evolved. It's probably going to change again. Animals use tools, big deal! How else are they going to survive? Besides, the people in the video claim they have never seen this before, yet it probably still happened before they actually did see it happen. Again, they make assumptions. They should track down EVERY gorilla if they want really strong evidence, but to me, this still isn't evidence for "ape to man" evolution.

I'm sorry, but you got most, if not all of your facts wrong.

For one thing, EVERY animal uses tools? What tools does a tiger use? Teeth and claws are not tools. What tools does any non-ape animal use? Nests are not tools, that's just building a bed /cradle.

Another thing, you have a very warped view of evolution. According to evolution, gorillas are not our ancestors. Our ancestors are dead, they went extinct. That is how evolution works, natural selection. We did not come from living apes. However, we came from a common ancestor as apes. Nobody who understands evolution believes we are from living monkeys.

And third, I watched the video all the way through. Not once does it say a single word about evolution, or that we came from gorillas. All it says is that gorillas are similar to us, but it doesn't say gorillas are our ancestors, nor does it say that this proves evolution.

I was adding my OWN commentary to the video (which does vary from person to person you know). What facts was I inserting to my own commentary? The video mentions "stunning new evidence", a man says that the gorilla did what he did, "such discoveries may help us understand our own evolution...", "this important research, gives us a glimpse, into the minds of our nearest animal relatives, and perhaps, into the mist of our own distant past".