Evidence for God from Science

Someone suggested that I start a topic on how to witness to Muslims. I have vasilated between doing it and not doing it. Mainly because I think that witnessing to Muslims is no different than witnessing to any non-Christian.

GodandScience has had a few Muslims come and visit, but not many. I have encountered Muslims in larger numbers on other sites. As we meet them on discussion boards and some of us face-to-face in our daily lives, we must provide answers to their questions as best that we can.

Here is a post I received from a Muslim that you can play around with and we will see how this project goes.

The Muslim made the comment that Jesus used to pray on his forehead as Muslims do when he worshipped and prayed to God Almighty.

I explained that Trinitarian Christians believe that Jesus is fully God and fully human in nature and that He prayed in many different positions and went on to say that Jesus didn't pray to the Father as we do--Jesus never prayed for forgiveness of His sins because He did not sin as the Bible and as the Qur'an say and as Muslims and Christians believe.

This is his response:

"The philosophy is of Jesus being 100% human and 100% God is not correct. If he were God, he would not have to pray at all to anyone.

If you say that he was praying to the Father, then the Father is already the Exalted One and becomes a far higher being than Jesus and you cannot claim Jesus being co-equal in the system.

People do not pray to God for getting their sins forgiven. They just pray to worship God Almighty. When I am praying, I am worshipping God Almighty and I am not praying with the sole intention of getting my sins removed because I know that God Almighty is Compassionate, Merciful and Oft-Forgiving.

Sin is a secondary matter. Sin is not part of any Faith or belief System. Sin is not the reason for praying or worshipping God. Jesus was worshipping God Almighty and used to say his prayers regularly. That is what matters most and he humbled himself before God Almighty.

Muhammad accomplished the greatest Commandment given to Noah, Moses and taught by Jesus that people shall love and worship only One God with all their souls, mind and hearts. And he kept up the words,"There is no other Deity beside God". Period. Both the Jews and the Muslims believe in that statement.

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Any takers?

Here try this link to CRI

http://www.equip.org/

They have info you'll need.

Hope this helps.

Forgot to mention to use the search engine at CRI site to locate resourses

B.W.,

Thanks but GodandScience provides excellent articles too, as other sites do.

We can't just hand the Muslims a book to read. They won't even read the Bible which they think is "corrupted."

Christian2 wrote:B.W.,

Thanks but GodandScience provides excellent articles too, as other sites do.

We can't just hand the Muslims a book to read. They won't even read the Bible which they think is "corrupted."

I know but we can read the books from others who have discussed issues with Muslims and learn from them on how to talk with them.

I do not have experience with Muslims so I would study hard on the subject and try what I learn.

B. W.,

I do have experience witnessing to Muslims. I figure over 6,000 hours worth.

Christian2 wrote:B. W.,

I do have experience witnessing to Muslims. I figure over 6,000 hours worth.

Hey - teach us then!!

Thanks for starting this thread, C2.

The more I read about Islam - and I mean the authoritative version which does not whitewash its true intentions - the scarier I find the whole subject.
If any group of people need to know Christ (and not the Muslim version of Him) then these people do!

The western world has adopted a post-modern stance of liberal political correctness which is actually fostering the incursion of Islam into Europe and the west.
Princeton professor Bernard Lewis, renowned historian of Islam, is speculating that Europe could well be Islamic by the end of the 21st century… or maybe much sooner if current demographic trends continues.
If Professor Lewis is right, then the USA will find its current world super power status threatened not so much by being undermined itself (although that is likely too if the PC brigade don't stop negating elements of our Christian based culture) but by the emergence of an Islamic Europe who has turned from ally to become the enemy instead.

Whereas Christianity spread by people choosing to convert, Islam is spreading by aggression and “the sword”.
As Christians we have a lot of work to do to counter the force of this religious ideology unless we want our children and grandchildren to worship Allah rather than know Jesus.

C2, you are probably right that witnessing to Muslims follows the same kind of principles for witnessing to anyone, such as starting where the other person is at (rather than elsewhere) and answering the questions that they actually ask (rather than something else that is not relevant).
However, it is also important to know enough about Islam so that you can entice your questioner to explore further rather than turn him off through your own ignorance with an insensitive and uninformed response.

B.W., Christian 2 is our "resident expert" on Islam here, and I have learnt such a lot from him already. It is good to have his input.

B. W. wrote:

Christian2 wrote:B. W.,

I do have experience witnessing to Muslims. I figure over 6,000 hours worth.

Hey - teach us then!!

Lesson One: Never insult the Qur'an or Muhammad. The Muslims revere both. The Qur'an is kept in a high place in a Muslim's home; they do not put it on the floor.

Muslims believe that all prophets were sinless and that includes Muhammad. The commentary in my Qur'an says that Muhammad was gentler than Jesus. I about fell off my chair when I read that one!

I said in my opening post:

Mainly because I think that witnessing to Muslims is no different than witnessing to any non-Christian.

This is true except that the Muslims believe that all of the Qur'an is the exact words of Allah. If Allah says it, then it is so.

The real problem arises when comparing the Bible Scriptures with the verses in the Qur'an: anything in the Bible that contradicts the Qur'an is to be discarded by the Muslims.

Making it more difficult to witness to Muslims is the fact that most of them have not read the Bible--some think it is worthless to read--so why bother. Those who have read it don't understand what they are reading. Case in point:

BIBLE ALLOWS KILLING INNOCENTS

Judges 16
16:30
And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Thus here the corrupt bible allows the killing of innocents by SUICIDE, lol how the kafirs blame others..

Further complicating witnessing is that what a lot Muslims learn about Christianity comes from the Muslim polemics who continually take Bible verses out of context and put their own spin on them.

Muslims have a misunderstanding of why Christians claim that Jesus is the Son of God or the incarnate God in the flesh. Here is an example of that from a Muslim:

Is Jesus a god, a man, or God? Is he the son of God? Did God have intercourse with Mary? If yes, is Jesus half-god and half-man like Hercules? How could Jesus be the son of God, and be God himself? If Jesus is God, wouldn't that mean he had intercouse with his mother to give birth to himself? Would you compare Jesus' relationship with God to that of Hercules' relationship with Zeus?

There are many verses in the Bible that Muslims say foretell of the coming of Muhammad. You will need to know how to answer everyone of them. There is nowhere in the Holy Bible that foretells of Muhammad.

The best way to witness to Muslims is to get on an Islamic discussion board and get to it.

B.W., you provided a useful link which I followed and it led to this article by Abdul Saleeb & Norman L. Geisler entitledUnderstanding and Reaching Muslims which is very relevant to this thread.

Christian 2, it seems a daunting task! What success have you had with all those estimated 6,000 hours?
Why I ask is that I saw a comment somewhere on this forum by somebody who said that they have never seen anyone be converted on a forum. I don't know how anyone can make such a claim as an appearance on a forum takes only the tiniest portion of a person's life so there is a lot that is not known about them, and people are influenced by what they read. I certainly have been, and indeed my Christian faith is in response to the efforts of someone in Texas over 8,500 miles away.
But I am interested in hearing what good effects your efforts may have had... if you know yourself, that is.

Hi Judah,

But I am interested in hearing what good effects your efforts may have had... if you know yourself, that is.

I will never know. Muslims will read and not comment. What they take with them is their secret. There are some Muslims who are undercover Christians. This is understandable if they live in a predominately Muslim country.

I do recommend this site: http://www.arabicbible.com/islam/christian_doctrine.htm

to Muslims in order for them to understand Christianity. It is available in various languages. Whether they ever access that site I will never know. I also recommend The Jesus Film: http://www.jesusfilm.org/

I have recommended books, etc.

My greatest thrill was getting a Muslim woman to read the Gospel. She was brought up in Egypt and the only exposure to Christianity were the Copts. I told her I was a Protestant. She didn't know what that was. I told her we Protestants do not recognize the Pope as an authority. She then read the Book of John and said that it was "beautiful." She later told me that she stayed up one night and read Matthew, Mark and Luke and asked me what she should read next.

She is on a site where I no longer post so we don't talk anymore. She called me her brother and friend. As far as I know she is still a Muslim. She did tell me once that if it hadn't been for Muhammad she would be a Christian.

A couple of days ago I had a discussion with a Muslim who was trying to convince me that Muhammad was the prophet of Deut 18:18, was mentioned in the Song of Songs, and someplace in Genesis and he was complaining about the KJV of the Bible--"corrupt" and stuff. So I said fine, let's use the Jewish Tanakh translated by the Jews and take a look at your argument using an English translation of the Hebrew language that a non-Hebrew speaking Jew would use.

I quoted the Scriptures and his argument fell apart. His reaction? He said, "why should I believe the Jews?" lol

One other thing that a Protestant needs to do to counter Muslim allegations against Christianity is learn a little about the Catholic faith. Some of their allegations come from what they think they know about the Catholics--Catholics worship Mary, pray to Mary, pray to saints, etc.

Want to hear a joke that a Muslim told me recently? Here it is:

"An italian woman was kneeling in prayer to the virgin Mary, when Jesus happened to walk by and notice her words. He watched her for a moment, as she plead for assistance to Mary, until he could no longer take it and decided to interrupt her, saying, "You should not pray to Mary, as she is not divine, but only divinely inspired." to which the old italian woman replied, "Shuddup-ah-ya-mouth, I'm talkin' to ya muddah"

Nice to talk to you again, Judah. You heard about the hotels being blown up in Jordan today?

Christian2 wrote:
Want to hear a joke that a Muslim told me recently? Here it is:

"An italian woman was kneeling in prayer to the virgin Mary, when Jesus happened to walk by and notice her words. He watched her for a moment, as she plead for assistance to Mary, until he could no longer take it and decided to interrupt her, saying, "You should not pray to Mary, as she is not divine, but only divinely inspired." to which the old italian woman replied, "Shuddup-ah-ya-mouth, I'm talkin' to ya muddah"

LMAO! Now that's funny. And FYI, I'm known as Byblos the Catholic around here.

Yep, C2, I heard about those attacks in Amman.
They are thought to be the work of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the Jordanian leader of an insurgent group in Iraq, Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, who in 2004 was sentenced to death, in absentia, by a Jordanian military court for his role in killing an American diplomat two years earlier.

Oh, and it looks like Azahari bin Husin has just blown himself up during a raid on a terrorist hideout in Malang, Indonesia. Azahari was accused of masterminding bombings that killed dozens of Australians in blasts in Bali in 2002 and last month.

And Islam is said to be a peaceful religion?
No wonder you nearly fell off your chair when told Muhammad was gentler than Jesus!
The Qur'an portrays him as quite some thug.

And our university in Wellington has proudly advertised that it has just given Muslims a place to pray 5 times a day on campus since Christian students have access to chaplains on campus.
But wait a minute... this isn't an Islamic country, is it?
Could I expect to be given a chapel to pray in on campus at Al-Azhar University in Egypt? Not likely.

We are bending over backwards to accommodate Muslims pursuing their faith while Christianity gets knocked back as something only worthy to be eradicated in our public institutions.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair has just suffered a dramatic defeat in a House of Commons vote on an anti-terrorism legislation when 322 MPs voted against proposals to allow terror suspects to be held without charge for up to 90 days.

Well, maybe this doesn't have much to do with witnessing to Muslims, but it does highlight the urgent need to be doing so.

C2, I find it hard to contain myself sometimes about the contents of the Qur'an and the activities of that evil prophet of theirs. It is so hard to hear about the real Islam and then have to take care what you say to a Muslim about their faith.
How do you handle that?

First assignment:

It seems that some Muslims now-a-days and trying to justify the "kill the infidel" verses in the Qur'an by saying that they are no different than what happened in the Book of Joshua. Please see Scriptures below:

8 And it will be, when you have taken the city, that you shall set the city on fire. According to the commandment of the LORD you shall do. See, I have commanded you.”

9 Joshua therefore sent them out; and they went to lie in ambush, and stayed between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of Ai; but Joshua lodged that night among the people. 10 Then Joshua rose up early in the morning and mustered the people, and went up, he and the elders of Israel, before the people to Ai. 11 And all the people of war who were with him went up and drew near; and they came before the city and camped on the north side of Ai. Now a valley lay between them and Ai. 12 So he took about five thousand men and set them in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city. 13 And when they had set the people, all the army that was on the north of the city, and its rear guard on the west of the city, Joshua went that night into the midst of the valley.

14 Now it happened, when the king of Ai saw it, that the men of the city hurried and rose early and went out against Israel to battle, he and all his people, at an appointed place before the plain. But he did not know that there was an ambush against him behind the city. 15 And Joshua and all Israel made as if they were beaten before them, and fled by the way of the wilderness. 16 So all the people who were in Ai were called together to pursue them. And they pursued Joshua and were drawn away from the city. 17 There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not go out after Israel. So they left the city open and pursued Israel.

18 Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Stretch out the spear that is in your hand toward Ai, for I will give it into your hand.” And Joshua stretched out the spear that was in his hand toward the city. 19 So those in ambush arose quickly out of their place; they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand, and they entered the city and took it, and hurried to set the city on fire. 20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and behold, the smoke of the city ascended to heaven. So they had no power to flee this way or that way, and the people who had fled to the wilderness turned back on the pursuers.

21 Now when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city and that the smoke of the city ascended, they turned back and struck down the men of Ai. 22 Then the others came out of the city against them; so they were caught in the midst of Israel, some on this side and some on that side. And they struck them down, so that they let none of them remain or escape. 23 But the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him to Joshua.

24 And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness where they pursued them, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword. 25 So it was that all who fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand—all the people of Ai. 26 For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. 27 Only the livestock and the spoil of that city Israel took as booty for themselves, according to the word of the LORD which He had commanded Joshua. 28 So Joshua burned Ai and made it a heap forever, a desolation to this day. 29 And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until evening. And as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree, cast it at the entrance of the gate of the city, and raise over it a great heap of stones that remains to this day.

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The Muslims say: "This is the most vicious and cruel doing by the Lord and Joshua together. If Christians believe that Jesus is God, the I Am, was he a part of this?"

I would say that Trinitarian Christians would say that Jesus was "a part of this."

I would like to hear from some Christians how the situation with Joshua is different than the situation with the killing verses in the Qur'an and Muhammad.

Thank you.

This issue is dealt with by Lee Strobel in his book, The Case for Faith, being "Objection #4: God and the Killing of Innocents" which he raises with Norman L. Geisler.

The essence of the explanation is that the Canaanites whom Joshua was commanded to ambush and eradicate were a thoroughly vile and evil culture so much so that it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, even child sacrifice by fire. Geisler describes them as an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites. He also went on to point out that while they were an evil people, the righteous among them were saved - for example, Rahab, who protected Israeli spies.

Geisler points out that God's purpose was to destroy a corrupt nation because the national structure was inherently evil, not to destroy people who were willing to repent. He wanted Israel to be free from corruption that would have destroyed it, and He wanted an environment where the Messiah could come for the benefit of millions thereafter.

Also noted was that the innocent women and children were not those to be destroyed, but the army of hardened fighting men. And it must not be forgotten that God is righteous and abhors such evil, and He is just - this action was well deserved, and He was making His character known to all.

Some, often those who are caught in their sin nature, will see this as the action of a brutal God, but that is not the view from someone who knows God as righteous and just, and full of mercy and compassion for those who follow His commands.

There is another very important point to be made... and this is the one that answers your question.
The Bible cites these examples of God's wrath being poured out on evil people, but they are specific incidences. Unlike the Qur'an, nowhere is there a general command to "kill the infidel" that applies to everywhere and anytime. In fact, the opposite is the case - Jesus talks about loving your enemies and doing good to those who hate you.
And Muhammad, who came 600 years after Jesus, completely ignores the message of Jesus. His revelations from Allah push for killing and plundering and forcing conversion to Islam by the sword if necessary, everywhere and anytime. This is not the action or purpose of God as shown in a correct true understanding of the stories of Joshua.

I would think that anyone who is wise should take heed of what God commanded through Joshua and, especially those Islamic extremists, should be warned that God does not approve the evil that is done towards others.

Yes, Jesus being of God in the way that He is, was indeed part of all that - righteous and just, showing compassion and mercy to those who repented and were not caught up in evil ways, but also showing us that God is indeed serious about His repulsion and wrath for sin.

I read somewhere that Islam comes through Ishmael.
According to the Hebrew bible both the descendents of Isaac and Ishmael are the Chosen People, because God makes a covenant with both groups. And like Issac, God promises that Ishmaels offspring will become a "great Nation" (Genesis 21:13,) Genesis 21:18

According to the Jewish Mishnah and the Muslim Koran, Abrahams father makes a living constructing idols used in pagan religion. One day while his father is absent, Abraham smashes all the adols except for the largest, and places a hammer in it's hand. When his father returns, he is furious and asks how this happined. Abraham blames the largest Idol, and when his father refuses to believe him, he brilliantly illustrates to his father the folly of idolatry.

(tell me that doesn't say it's ok to lie as long as you can make a good point)