Evidence for God from Science

I've heard the story in the bible about how noahs son was cursed and made into a slave. im of the exact passage but it is along the same lines of that. alot of people may interpret it wrong but the fact remains that people did use that bible passage to justify slavery. if this was really the word of a loving god, why would he alow a human being to use his word to justify evil?

some people believe that religion has been used as a tool to control people throughout the centuries and many have criticized the bible and christians. however, christians seem to put alot of faith into this book. what makes the bible so unique from other religious books? and what makes jesus so different from other religious figures? i dont doubt that he was a real person but how could someone be so blind to believe in someone that they never saw in real life? sure we have a record of his socalled miricales but theres no proof that he actually performed these miricales. whoever recorded these miricales could of been making it all up or simply over exasurating. when humans cant explain something, they tend to make up things to try to explain them. in the ancient world, this would be acceptable but in todays world its not. if there was a god who wanted me to live according to his ways, why not just tell me to my what to do rather than have us read a 2000 yr old book that most people can't interpret? if he was responsible for creating the whole universe, shurely he would have a better way to proove his existance to his creation right?

if such miricales(like parting the red sea and walking on water) really occured during that time period, why havent we seen such things in todays world? i see people on tv that claim to be miraculously healed but for all i know, it could be a hoax.

moving on from that. i, like most people believe in the possibility of life on other planets. science has yet to discover life but lets just say there is life on some other planet. if jesus was real, wouldnt he have the same duty to go to other planets and die for the inhabitants of that planet?

Like a character in one of my favorite games likes to say, "Ready the rack"

Joey wrote:I've heard the story in the bible about how noahs son was cursed and made into a slave. im of the exact passage but it is along the same lines of that. alot of people may interpret it wrong but the fact remains that people did use that bible passage to justify slavery. if this was really the word of a loving god, why would he alow a human being to use his word to justify evil?

Old testament laws do not apply to anybody other than the Jews of old. God allows many things because the world is a test. What so many atheists fail to understand is that this world is nothing. It is a testing ground for the afterlife. Arguments like "There is so much evil in the world" are meaningless. Yes, I know there is evil in the world, even the Bible confirms it. But it is up to you to either combat that evil or succumb to it. Crying out in desperation that "Why would God do that" is succumbing to it. If people would just shut their mouths and do something about it instead of complain, life would bemuch better. But alas, it is human nature that prevents us.

Joey wrote:some people believe that religion has been used as a tool to control people throughout the centuries and many have criticized the bible and christians. however, christians seem to put alot of faith into this book. what makes the bible so unique from other religious books? and what makes jesus so different from other religious figures? i dont doubt that he was a real person but how could someone be so blind to believe in someone that they never saw in real life? sure we have a record of his socalled miricales but theres no proof that he actually performed these miricales. whoever recorded these miricales could of been making it all up or simply over exasurating. when humans cant explain something, they tend to make up things to try to explain them. in the ancient world, this would be acceptable but in todays world its not. if there was a god who wanted me to live according to his ways, why not just tell me to my what to do rather than have us read a 2000 yr old book that most people can't interpret? if he was responsible for creating the whole universe, shurely he would have a better way to proove his existance to his creation right?

And what kind of proof would you like? Do you want Jesus to single you out and raise a person from the dead in front of you while parting the Atlantic ocean and slamming a meteor into Mecca? Why should I doubt the word of thousands of people? Just because they lived 2000 years ago does not make them stupid. You don't endure a roman crucifixion and come back to talk about it. On the other hand, I have a bunch of arrogant atheist skeptics who want to see and feel everything before they believe it. That is not what humans are supposed to be like. Systematic analysis is nothing more than basic instinct that even amoeba have. Why should I believe a bunch of people who have no regard for either logic or mystic? I know for a FACT the spirit world is real. The easiest test you can make is to do a search on astral projection and apply some of the techniques. If you can't be bothered to do even that, then don't come back because we have no need for you.

Joey wrote:if such miricales(like parting the red sea and walking on water) really occured during that time period, why havent we seen such things in todays world? i see people on tv that claim to be miraculously healed but for all i know, it could be a hoax."

The only people worthy of performing miracles are off in hermitage because they are disgusted by people like you. I can't possibly think of any way that could convince you to give faith a chance, short of God coming back to smack your head off, and He will not do that until the end, at which time it will be too late for you.

Joey wrote:moving on from that. i, like most people believe in the possibility of life on other planets. science has yet to discover life but lets just say there is life on some other planet. if jesus was real, wouldnt he have the same duty to go to other planets and die for the inhabitants of that planet?

Yes, I suppose He would. Either that, or let them know He dided on Earth for them as well. This is an useless question however, since we don't really know what's out there.

Kurieuo: Moved relevant portion of this post into new topic at Old & New Covenants

Now back to the one of the original questions...Joey said...

I've heard the story in the bible about how noahs son was cursed and made into a slave. im of the exact passage but it is along the same lines of that. alot of people may interpret it wrong but the fact remains that people did use that bible passage to justify slavery. if this was really the word of a loving god, why would he alow a human being to use his word to justify evil?

Slavery was okayed by God in the OT in certain instances...
Repayment of Debts...where there was no means of repaying such...
Deuteronomy 15 shows us that six years of enslavement with release in the seventh year. That was for a brethern [Jewish male] if a foreigner [Gentile male] than a further six years could be required if the debt is not paid in the first six years. If you were female it was life.

In OT times slavery was a common practice. God commanded His people that if you were to buy slaves, they were to be of the heathen nations.
Leviticus 25:35-55 So slave practice being common was not condemned by God, but kindness was to be shown to the slaves.

In Deuteronomy 15:16,17 it states, "And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise."
Slaves who chose to remain, instead of being released had their ears pierced to show their lifetime commitment to their masters, because of their love for them.

I know in the USA Civil War over slavery, there were stories of slaves who wanted to stay with their masters because of their kindness, love shown to them. This is the whole issue - love. You see it comes back to love of the brethern fulfills the lawful requirements of God's Laws.
1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

The whole point of Jubilee [50 years] where everything is restored to the rightful owners despite of debts, etc. Jesus is our Jubilee. He restores us to God the Father as a debt free. Jesus paid it all. This is the point of 2 Kings 4:1-7 where Elisha comes to the rescue of a prophets widow. Upon the prophets death he was indebted to creditors. The creditors were coming to take the widows 2 sons as slaves to pay the debt. Elisha calls here to get vessels, many. Upon her obedience [faith] her debt is paid by the oil from one pot that fills all the vessels. Jesus fills our lives with His Spirit the Holy Spirit so that His love flows through us to many others. By the outpouring of His love through faith we are justified before God as the debt fully paid. Matthew 25:31-46

Hope this Helps,
Compassion

Hey Joey. I think you've probably gotten a more than adequate answer to your questions, so I'll just post a reference. You asked about slavery. This was discussed extensively on the old board.

The Bible and Slavery

I'd suggest reading it, as it does a good job dealing with the issue.

Joey wrote: in the ancient world, this would be acceptable but in todays world its not. if there was a god who wanted me to live according to his ways, why not just tell me to my what to do rather than have us read a 2000 yr old book that most people can't interpret? if he was responsible for creating the whole universe, shurely he would have a better way to proove his existance to his creation right?

if such miricales(like parting the red sea and walking on water) really occured during that time period, why havent we seen such things in todays world? i see people on tv that claim to be miraculously healed but for all i know, it could be a hoax.

Hi Joey

Though this is not the only reason, yet it is a good one - Prophecy in the Bible. Significant events have occured in human history which have been predicted accurately in the Bible. Events occuring in the world today is the fulfilment of predictions in the Bible. 81% of the prophecies in the Bible had been fulfilled by the end of the 20th century. We might live long enough to see the fulfilment of the rest of the 19% in our times. (I'm not talking about the 'Bible Code' now). How is this possible? God is in charge of history and He draws the maps on the globe. Since the Bible are ultimately His words, it just makes sense that He has let us know what His ultimate plans are.

The Bible has always spoken truth to people in every time. It also lays down predictive principles of life on Earth. It talks about cause and effect of human actions - something that does not change in the face of scientific progress. Fundamental principles like respect for human life and a seven day week are Biblical concepts. Regardless of how you see people interpret it - The message of how a personal relationship is achieved with the creator of the universe, still remains the same. It reveals Jesus to us in a systematic way - The answer to anyone searching for their origins. It describes perfection to us and gives us the way to attain a form of it. That perfection personified is Jesus, available to anyone who is willing to believe. So simple in the limitless universe of ours.

God has told us His name. The closest English translation of his Hebrew name is 'Always'. A knowledge of someone who calls Himself limitless will make life very simple - and that includes an understanding of the Bible. God has also associated Himself absolutely with something all humans crave for - Love.

Earlier this week my girlfriend and I had an appointment for which we were almost late. Well, it was her fault . Anyway, I was frustrated because we had to find a parking spot in one of the city's busiest car parks. There were a bunch of cars driving around looking for a vacancy, like vultures circling over a carcass. In my 3rd run down the same aisle, I was at the point of cursing, while she just asked God for a spot. Immediately, the reverse lights lit up on a parked car to my right. They pulled out to leave and I happened to be the first in the queue! Was that just statistically possible random good luck? Something tells me that I dare not question a supernatural intervention.

Joey, if he tells you, then you are alone.

When you are alone, you are easier to be target. What makes us human is that we each and everyone have our own definition, that is why our looks are all different. Thus everyone operates differently, and not everyone is suited to be alone, are you strong enough to withstand the challenges alone? Perhaps you are, but not everyone have that willpower. God realize this from the beginning of mankind creation, look at Adam and Eve in the bible. If we are all the same, then we wouldn't be human.

When a car is aiming to hit you in the middle of the road, can you avoid it by yourself? How many times can you avoid it? Remember roads vary in size and traffic and speed.

No, it takes effort, from both side, the person driving the car, and the person trying to avoid the car. Your chance of surviving is greater on each and every road when the person driving the car is working with you.


The bible helps unify mankind, it creates a body. It draws people together and help form circulation, thus the circle of life. God understand us the most, more than we understand ourselves. Because of this, God is never confused, never feel stress, it is what makes him almighty and superior. This is just one tiny quality that draw a clear distinction between God's mightiness and the distance of human beings. His superiority cannot be comprehended by me or any human being alone, for that would be an insult to God's almightiness.

Human Beings equal only one creature on Earth, God created many creature and things in life. His creation is actively being research by Human through Science. So just imagine, if we don't even understand his creation, how can we alone comprehend his superiority and intentions? How can we estimate his knowledge? Don't forget knowledge is only one thing, there could be many other definitions of other words that is beyond our reach. If we don't understand some of his creations fully, what makes you think we understand one of his higher standard of creation?

In truth, we don't.

No one can truly understand human being except God, and not even those through God can claim to understand human being fully.

If we don't understand human being fully, we have no right to question the laws set by God, we just have to trust God by understanding God through Christ, Bible, Church and the loving people whose life been prosper by God. By understanding what personality and values God holds, we are armed with the ability to either entrust our life with the mighty Lord or refuse to accept the truth in life. I am confident that once you experience some of the love God generously bless us with, then you will accept God and Christ as your lord and only lord, then you will naturally spread that love.

May peace be with you, as peace can only be found upon God.

You will not find peace by darkness.

First, if anyone is wondering, I moved several off-topic posts (including my own) into a new thread at http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... php?p=1231.

Joey wrote:I've heard the story in the bible about how noahs son was cursed and made into a slave. im of the exact passage but it is along the same lines of that. alot of people may interpret it wrong but the fact remains that people did use that bible passage to justify slavery. if this was really the word of a loving god, why would he alow a human being to use his word to justify evil?

There is a very indepth article I would recommend to anyone sincerely seeking a response to the issue of slavery presented in the Old Testament—...Does God condone slavery in the Bible?

Additionally, just because people can manipulate the Bible for their own ends, how would that impact on the actual truth within it? What would you expect God do—zap anyone who misuses it for their own selfish desires? Such would perhaps go against God's desire for us being able to make free choices in this world.

Joey wrote:some people believe that religion has been used as a tool to control people throughout the centuries and many have criticized the bible and christians.

I can use a steak knife to cut steak, or to stab someone. How does the latter take away from its intended purpose? Similarly the Bible can be misused as a tool in the hand of a deceitful person. Also, there are many who have criticised secular beliefs as being the cause of much inhumanity in the past, but why would such matter when examining the truth claims of such beliefs?

As for Christians being criticised what is your point??? Show me a belief that hasn't been criticised. Yet, Christianity is still around so perhaps this says something... However, perhaps the problem is as Glenn Miller describes:

A Christian message that is brutally honest with people about their problems and the unearned-nature of the free solution, will not likely sit well with those in power, those who are addicted to arrogance, who are taken in by selfish-ambition, are deceived by wealth and affluence, and those who are "perfect" already...

...

The Christian message--at its root--has a 'leveling' effect: the self-worthless are really worth more than they thought, and the self-worthy are worth less than they thought. The God who came to earth as a peasant, and reaches forth an ennobling smile and a helping hand to a ruined heart, is the same God who confronts the smug, worth-more-than-others, dehumanizing arrogant with "Re-humanize yourself, or I will turn you into that which you look down your nose at..." ("and, if you need a new heart to do that, I will give it freely--to those who ask in honesty, not demand in pride")

Good question...if Christianity is true, why does it need so much defending? And why doesn't God make it clearer?

Joey wrote:however, christians seem to put alot of faith into this book. what makes the bible so unique from other religious books?

You could compare them and find out... but seeing as you're asking Christians I'm assuming you would trust our opinion? You might wish to read over http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibletru.html

Joey wrote:and what makes jesus so different from other religious figures?

Well for one, Jesus claimed to be God and is perhaps the only person to have convinced a large portion of the world. As Thomas Schultz points out: "Not one recognized religious leader, not Moses, Paul, Buddha, Mohammed, Confucius, etc., has ever claimed to be god; that is, with the exception of Jesus Christ. Christ is the only religious leader who has ever claimed to be deity and the only individual ever who has convinced a great portion of the world that He is God." (http://www.godandscience.org/discovery/chapter3.html)

Some other pages that might be of interest are:
- Nothing Unique About the Teachings of Jesus Christ?
- Jesus and the Gurus

Joey wrote:i dont doubt that he was a real person but how could someone be so blind to believe in someone that they never saw in real life?

Well if we can't really believe in the existence of someone we haven't seen, then discussions that happen on boards like this may seem a bit pointless. I mean everyone blindly believing they're talking to an actual person without seeing them. Imagine that?

- The Historicity of the Empty Tomb of Jesus
- The Evidence For Jesus

Joey wrote:sure we have a record of his socalled miricales but theres no proof that he actually performed these miricales. whoever recorded these miricales could of been making it all up or simply over exasurating. when humans cant explain something, they tend to make up things to try to explain them. in the ancient world, this would be acceptable but in todays world its not.

Good point. I suppose they were pretty ignorant back then weren't they?

- Doesn't the pervasive gullibility of the ancient world reduce the credibility of these accounts to virtually nil?

Joey wrote:if there was a god who wanted me to live according to his ways, why not just tell me to my what to do rather than have us read a 2000 yr old book that most people can't interpret? if he was responsible for creating the whole universe, shurely he would have a better way to proove his existance to his creation right?

So you want God to come to you on your own terms? What if God desires us to seek Him in order to find, while allowing those who want to deny Him the ability to do so?

- Is God supposed to 'prove stuff' to us, or are we supposed to 'seek God'?

As for the Bible, I'd say the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things. Lay people read and understand the Bible every day.

Joey wrote:if such miricales(like parting the red sea and walking on water) really occured during that time period, why havent we seen such things in todays world? i see people on tv that claim to be miraculously healed but for all i know, it could be a hoax.

I personally don't believe much of the miracles on tele either, but at the same time I am open to the possibility of miracles occuring today, and therefore I can't rule out they still happen. As for the miracles we see in the Old Testament, they were not continuous and nor did they happen without some purpose. What would be the purpose of God continually creating miracles? Wouldn't such defeat the purpose of the stable laws He setup in our world? Additionally, the whole point about miracles is that they aren't suppose to happen. If they became a usual event, then discussion of them would become kind of pointless as miracles are generally understood to be events that defy natural explanation.

Joey wrote:i, like most people believe in the possibility of life on other planets. science has yet to discover life but lets just say there is life on some other planet. if jesus was real, wouldnt he have the same duty to go to other planets and die for the inhabitants of that planet?

First, Jesus gave Himself "freely" to enable a way for us to come to God. He did not have to die for us, just as He need not die for some other intelligent species made in His image. Second this is a purely theoretical question, so what if a portion of them also believed that God was incarnated and died for their sins? Still yet, what if their faith revolved around someone called Jesus?

Kurieuo.

Compassion;.....the civil war was not just about slavery. Maybe 5% of the war was about slavery. The main reason for the civil war was about making the U.S. a union state.

I know that this thread is old but here goes something;.....If there is life on other planets, Jesus would only have to go there for the lost. That's if that planet is in the same situation as this one. They may not even be in a fallen state like us. Therefore not needing a Savior to be saved but a Lord to be King.

Jac3510 wrote:Hey Joey. I think you've probably gotten a more than adequate answer to your questions, so I'll just post a reference. You asked about slavery. This was discussed extensively on the old board.

The Bible and Slavery

I'd suggest reading it, as it does a good job dealing with the issue.

I tried to go to the link provided and it did not work, is it still active?

phoney wrote:

Jac3510 wrote:Hey Joey. I think you've probably gotten a more than adequate answer to your questions, so I'll just post a reference. You asked about slavery. This was discussed extensively on the old board.

The Bible and Slavery

I'd suggest reading it, as it does a good job dealing with the issue.

I tried to go to the link provided and it did not work, is it still active?

There are articles on slavery in the Bible here (part 1), and here (part 2). They use a lot of material from Glenn Miller's excellent articles (linked to above), but in a more accessible form. There's an article on Christianity and slavery here.