Evidence for God from Science

Three Witnesses
Moses laid down the law that the testimony of two or three witnesses is required to establish a matter: "One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." (Deuteronomy 19:15).

Jesus raised this principle of law in making His case before the Pharisees. They complained that His own, uncorroborated witness to His identity was insufficient: "The Pharisees therefore said to Him, 'You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.'" (John 8:13). Far from challenging them on the law, He agreed with their legal analysis: "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." (John 8:16-18 ). As Jesus Himself had already explicated the law to His hearers, testimony of only One Witness in His own behalf was not legally valid: "If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true." (John 5:31-32). Nor was it suitable to the gravity of the matter to allow merely human testimony: "Yet I do not receive testimony from man..." (John 5:34). It's the Father who corroborates Jesus' own testimony: "And the Father Himself, who sent me, has testified of Me..." (John 5:37). So we've got our legal minimum of two witnesses: the Father and the Son. But why stop at two; why not the full complement of "three witnesses" Moses recommended?

Jesus said, "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." (John 15:26). So a third witness rises to testify!

Many contemporary Bible translations lack 1 John 5:7, missing in the early Greek manuscripts. Some think it was a marginal gloss which migrated into the text. But if a marginal gloss, it's an uncommonly astute one, as these are the very three witnesses John's already named to make the case that Jesus Christ is the Son of God: "...And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one...If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of his Son." (1 John 5:6-9).

Has any witness in a court of law ever been permitted to go outside, put on an ill-fitting wig and cheap glasses, return to be sworn in under an alias, and then been allowed to corroborate his own testimony? Of course not! - that's not two witnesses, but one witness whose perjured testimony is obviously worthless anyhow.

The witnesses with Whom we have to deal would not lower themselves to such a tawdry scam: "And they made his grave with the wicked - But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth." (Isaiah 53:9). As these three witnesses rise above any suspicion of perjury, their testimony must provide the genuine corroboration Moses demanded: God in Three Witnesses, Blessed Trinity!

Holy, Holy, Holy
'If God is triune, why doesn't the Bible say so?' This question stuns attentive Bible students, who see the triunity of God running all through the Bible. Here is an example:

The seraphim about God's throne praise Him with three 'holies': "And one cried to another and said: 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!'" (Isaiah 6:3). When Paul feels moved to sing a hymn of praise to his God, he likewise finds three 'holies' just sufficient:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace,..."

"To the praise of the glory of His grace": the first 'Holy', awarded to "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ".

"...by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

"To the praise of His glory", the second 'Holy', goes to "the Beloved", Christ.

"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:3-14).

"To the praise of His glory", the third 'Holy', awarded to "the Holy Spirit of promise". Three 'Holies': not any 'Holies' too few, nor any left over!

Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.' So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Genesis 1:26-27).

Then the LORD God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22).

And the LORD said, 'Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.' So the LORD scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city." (Genesis 11:6-8 ).

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: 'Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?' Then I said, 'Here am I! Send me.'" (Isaiah 6:8 ).

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make (Our) home with him.'" (John 14:23).

"The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying, 'Let us break Their bonds in pieces and cast away Their cords from us.'" (Psalm 2:2-3).

The Same God
"Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. There are diversities of gifts, but the same (Spirit). There are differences of ministries, but the same (Lord). And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same (God) who works all in all." (1 Corinthians 12:3-6).

One Faith
"There is one body and one (Spirit), just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one (Lord), one faith, one baptism; one (God and Father) of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:5).

The LORD Bless You
Moses taught Israel a triune blessing: "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, 'This is the way you shall bless the children of Israel. Say to them: "The LORD bless you and keep you; The LORD make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The LORD lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace." So they shall put My name on the children of Israel, and I will bless them.'" (Numbers 6:23-27).


If the Bible teaches the Trinity, then where is it? A better question might be, where is it not:

Seal
"Now He who establishes us with you in (Christ) and has anointed us is (God), who also has sealed us and given us the (Spirit) in our hearts as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 1:21).

For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the (Lord), and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, (God) also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the (Holy Spirit), according to His own will?" (Hebrews 2:2-4).

"The grace of the (Lord Jesus Christ), and the love of (God), and the communion of the (Holy Spirit) be with you all. Amen." (2 Corinthians 13:14).

"To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of (God the Father), in sanctification of the (Spirit), for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of (Jesus Christ)..." (1 Peter 1:1-2).

"Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have sent Me." (Isaiah 48:16).

to be continued....

In the Name
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." (Matthew 28:19).

Christ's Baptism
At the scene of Christ's baptism, we observe three take the stage: "When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.'" (Luke 3:21-22, Matthew 3:13-17, Mark 1:9-11; John 1:32-34).

Three interacting characters talk with one another, pledging mutual love. Staging the baptism of Christ as a church pageant or a summer theatre production, our program for the evening's entertainment would list three 'dramatis personae'...a strangely familiar term. Christian baptism, with its triune recital of names, is a replica in miniature of this scene.


"But now in (Christ Jesus) you who once were far off have been brought near...For (through Him) we both have access (by one Spirit) (to the Father)." (Ephesians 2:13-18 )

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, (praying in the Holy Spirit), keep yourselves in the (love of God), looking for the (mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ) unto eternal life." (Jude 1:20-21)

"(This Jesus) God has raised up...Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the (Father) the promise of the (Holy Spirit), He poured out this which you now see and hear." (Acts 2:32-33)

"For this reason I bow my knees to the (Father) of our (Lord Jesus Christ), from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through (His Spirit) in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height - to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:14-19).

"But when the Helper comes, whom (I) shall send to you from the Father, the (Spirit of truth) who proceeds from the (Father), He will testify of Me." (John 15:26).



"Now I beg you, brethren, through the (Lord Jesus Christ), and through the love of the (Spirit), that you strive together with me in prayers to (God) for me..." (Romans 15:30).

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because (God) from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the (Spirit) and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our (Lord Jesus Christ)." (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).


Origin
"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself..." (John 5:26).
"As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me." (John 6:57).
"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.'" (John 8:42).
He isn't worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." (Acts 17:25) - namely, the Word, "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4), the "Author of life" (Acts 3:15).

Likewise, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed, from the Father, through the Son:
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me." (John 15:26).
"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb." (Revelation 22:1).

Statements like these outline the 'processions': 'filiation' and 'spiration,' of the scholastics. This relation of origin and mutual dependence cannot be understood to imply precedence in time, because both Son and Spirit are explicitly said to be eternal (Hebrews 1:8-12, Hebrews 9:14). As eternal, there never was a time when Son and Spirit were not. But there is an order, because Jesus can ever say, "I live because of the Father". This mutual relation cannot meaningfully be predicated of a unipersonal God.

Temple Vision
New religious movements like take it for granted that Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, is the 'Father-only.' The classic proof that the God of the Old Testament is Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not 'Father-only', comes from Isaiah 6:1-3, combined with John 12:41 and Acts 28:25. Isaiah saw God in the temple:

"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory." (Isaiah 6:1-3).

Whom did Isaiah see? John the evangelist says he saw Christ. After quoting Isaiah 6:9-10, he says, "These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ's] glory, and spake of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue..." (John 12:41-42). Paul quotes the same passage, attributing the LORD's words to the Holy Spirit:

"So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: 'The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, "Go to this people and say: 'Hearing you will hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you will see, and not perceive; for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'" (Acts 28:25-27).

SoaringEagle
Some of this was taken from the following website
http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/threewitnessesf.html

In all their Affliction
"I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD
And the praises of the LORD,
According to all that the LORD has bestowed on us,
And the great goodness toward the house of Israel,
Which He has bestowed on them according to His mercies,
According to the multitude of His lovingkindnesses.
For He said, 'Surely they are My people,
Children who will not lie.'
So He became their Savior.
In all their affliction He was afflicted,
And the Angel of His Presence saved them;
In His love and in His pity He redeemed them;
And He bore them and carried them
All the days of old.
But they rebelled and grievedHis Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:
'Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?'
As a beast goes down into the valley,
And the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,
So You lead Your people,
To make Yourself a glorious name...
Doubtless You are our Father,
Though Abraham was ignorant of us,
And Israel does not acknowledge us.
You, O LORD, are our Father;
Our Redeemer from Everlasting is Your name."
(Isaiah 63:7-16).


Oil of Gladness
"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions." (Hebrews 1:9, Psalm 45:7).

The title 'Christ' means 'Anointed'. Kings of Israel were anointed into office: "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers; and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel arose and went to Ramah." (1 Samuel 16:13).

An anointed king, or Messiah, was prophesied in the psalms: "The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against His Anointed..." (Psalm 2:2), "I have found My servant David; with My holy oil I have anointed him..." (Psalm 89:20), and also by the prophets:

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified."
(Isaiah 61:1-3).
Jesus applied this prophecy of the coming Messiah to Himself in Luke 4:18-21, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit: "...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him." (Acts 10:38). Those of us who follow Him have a lesser anointing: "But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things...But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you..." (1 John 2:20-27), not the limitless one of the Son: "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure." (John 1:34).

Does Jesus anoint Himself...with Himself, as some say? Or, Biblically, do we have One who anoints, One who is anointed, and the Anointing: Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

God is love
The God of the Bible is love: "He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. " (1 John 4:8); "And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him." (1 John 4:16). John does not say that God once was not love but became love, but that He is love; because what God is, He is eternally. He does not change: "For I am the LORD, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob." (Malachi 3:6).

The Father loves the Son:
"Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles." (Isaiah 42:1);
"While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!'" (Matthew 17:5);
"As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:9-10).
And the Son loves the Father: "But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here." (John 14:31).

"Then His disciples remembered that it was written, 'Zeal [i.e., jealousy] for Your house has eaten Me up.'" (John 2:17, Psalms 69:9).
"Then I said, 'Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.' (Psalm 40:7-8, Hebrews 10:7).

The Holy Spirit joins in this communion of love:
"Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us'?" (James 4:5 NASB).
"Or do you think it is meaningless when the scripture says: He has jealous longings over the spirit which he lodged in us?" (James 4:5 Lattimore).
(This is a difficult verse to translate: "'Long unto envying'. A difficult phrase...But even so, with God presented as a jealous lover, does 'to pneuma' refer to the Holy Spirit as the subject of 'epipotei' or to man's spirit as the object of 'epipotei'?" (Robertson's Word Pictures).)

How could a uni-personal God be love, before He had created a world filled with things to love? Love requires a lover and a beloved. This is why the living God is love, now and forever; because, as Jesus said, "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24).

"Embrace the love of God, and by love embrace God...In proportion, therefore, as we are healed from the swelling of pride, in such proportion are we more filled with love; and with what is he full, who is full of love, except with God? Well, but you will say, I see love, and, as far as I am able, I gaze upon it with my mind, and I believe the Scripture, saying, that 'God is love; and he that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God;' but when I see love, I do not see in it the Trinity. Nay, but thou dost see the Trinity if thou seest love." (Augustine, On the Trinity, Book 8, Chapter .

Jesus promised that the very love with which the Father loves the Son would come to dwell in the believer: "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." (John 17:26). Could this mean that the Holy Spirit who indwells our hearts is the very love of Father and Son, arising from a perfect act of love just as the Word is born from a perfect act of self-contemplation?

Do you want me to answer any of this?

Well, this seems to be unquestionable, that there is one God in three witnesses. But, critique it if you'd like. Show where you feel there is error, and combat that with Scripture. We can discuss the matter. Sure

SoaringEagle

Fantastic. Can we agree that you haven't actually presented any passages of Scripture which define God and three persons in one being? You have presented a few passages in which God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are referred to in one verse, but that's not the same is it?

Well, I guess I see what you are saying. Many of the Scriptures of the three are refering to each Person of the Trinity's role/function and ministry, as they operate together in divine beauty and harmony as One God.

To answer this and give the clearest Scriptures that deals with that, which comes to my mind are.... hmmmmm

..................................God Indwells the Believer
2 Cor. 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."* 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."*

Col. 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which F4 is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

We as individual believers are a temple of God, and in this temple God dwells as Father, Son, Spirit. This connects with Jesus's words "our abode". Three persons co-inhabiting one temple as One God. If I were to describe this in two words, it would be "undescribable harmony."

Think of Space.
Space exists in height which is is distinct from width; width,which is distinct from depth; and depth, which is distinct from height. Yet, they are not three 'spaces,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space.
Though I know this is imperfect and not exactly flawlessly adequate, but helps with our finite understanding and comprehension.

The Symbol of the Trinity is a similar expression of the Godhead as the example above.

Hope this helps.

With Love,
SoaringEagle

Fortigurn wrote:Fantastic. Can we agree that you haven't actually presented any passages of Scripture which define God and three persons in one being? You have presented a few passages in which God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are referred to in one verse, but that's not the same is it?

And here we go again.

Byblos wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:Fantastic. Can we agree that you haven't actually presented any passages of Scripture which define God and three persons in one being? You have presented a few passages in which God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are referred to in one verse, but that's not the same is it?

And here we go again.

Yes and quiet - can you stick with the trinity thread so we do not have a round robin debate here? The subject matter is coming to a head there. Let's not cloud the issues again Fort - please???

Fortigum,

Can God be seen?

John 1:18 is quite emphatic that God has never been seen.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time...

Later in John's Gospel, Jesus is even more explicit.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

The Old Testament prescribed dire consequences for anyone who saw God's face.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

However, earlier in the same chapter, Exodus claims (and John) that Moses did indeed see God's face.

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.

It seems that Moses was not the only person to be granted this privelege.

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne...
Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

So how would you respond to this fortigum? Trinitarians have no problem answering this, claiming that Jesus is God, and was seen, yet the Father cannot be seen (while in the corruped body).