Evidence for God from Science

Having been inspired by another topic here: Do you guys think children can go to hell? My belief is no. I know very few adults who understand Jesus, and no children who do! But, I believe that the point where anyone one person passes from childhood to adulthood can only be determined by God. Just thought it'd be interesting to hear what everyone else thinks.

Do Children Go To Hell?

Children Go To Heaven

Mystical wrote:Having been inspired by another topic here: Do you guys think children can go to hell?

I don't believe that anyone goes to the 'hell' of popular theology. Children are certainly not guilty of sin from birth, unless you believe in 'Original Sin'.

If you believe in 'Original Sin', then the common idea aming 'Refomed' Christians and Catholics is that you have to put water on newborns to protect them from hell.

I don't beleive so, Jesus did say if you want to enter Heaven you must be as little children. That is a good indication we should stop poluting our children and learn from them.

So you think that there is another way to heaven besides the new birth? How is this not another gospel?

I realize the shellshock that can take place in this era of modern, feel-good theology, but there is no such thing as an "age of accountability". It is unbiblical (actually a pagan concept).

If you really believe this, then you should be pro-abortion. After all, what better gift could we give our children then to guarantee their passage into heaven? If we love them, we should kill them before they have a chance to become reprobate and end up in Hell.

Obviously, this is ridiculous. One who believes in an "age of accountability" must either deny original sin or deny the need for the new birth.

The Bible tells us that the children of unbelievers are "unclean" (1 Cor. 7:14), and that "no ...unclean person...has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God" (Eph. 5:5). That pretty much seals the deal.

puritan lad wrote:So you think that there is another way to heaven besides the new birth? How is this not another gospel?

I agree that the only way to salvation is the rebirth. This is not something which can happen to an infant.

I don't believe in 'Original Sin', so I don't have to worry about the implications of this doctrine.

I realize the shellshock that can take place in this era of modern, feel-good theology, but there is no such thing as an "age of accountability". It is unbiblical (actually a pagan concept).

That's true, there is no such thing as an 'age of accountabily'. Accountability in Scripture is predicated on knowledge and understanding.

That writes infants out of the picture immediately.

Fortigurn wrote:Accountability in Scripture is predicated on knowledge and understanding.

Really? Can you support this statement with scripture? Were Adam and Eve held accountable for their sin, since they did not know right from wrong until after they sinned (Genesis 3:4-7)?

If what you say is true, then no one is accountable since "There is none who understands" (Romans 3:11). "All are under sin" (Romans 3:9).

Try again.

puritan lad wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:Accountability in Scripture is predicated on knowledge and understanding.

Really? Can you support this statement with scripture?

Sure:

Luke 12:
48 But the one who did not know his master's will and did things worthy of punishment will receive a light beating. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required, and from the one who has been entrusted with much, even more will be asked.

John 12:
48 The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has a judge; the word I have spoken will judge him at the last day.

Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Romans 3:
20 For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:
15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Romans 5:
12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned—
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin {Greek 'sin is not reckoned'} when there is no law.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

Ephesians 4:
18 They are darkened in their understanding, being alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts.

1 Timothy 1:
12 I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.

James 4:
17 So whoever knows what is good to do and does not do it is guilty of sin.

Off the top of my head.

Were Adam and Eve held accountable for their sin, since they did not know right from wrong until after they sinned (Genesis 3:4-7)?

They did know right from wrong. Eve told the serpent very clearly that she knew what he was suggesting was wrong. What they lacked was an experiential knowledge of sin.

If what you say is true, then no one is accountable since "There is none who understands" (Romans 3:11).

Way to read a verse out of context. That does not say that none are accountable because of lack of knowledge and understanding. Nor indeed does it say that no one understands (it's a hyperbolic statement from one context which Paul is applying equally hyperbolically to another context, and in the original context the 'none' only referred to the Jews).

"All are under sin" (Romans 3:9).

And again.

Let me ask the question again, a little more clearly:

Can you find any scripture that says that a person is NOT ACCOUNTABLE for their actions due to a lack of knowledge? All of the examples you posted were held accountable (received beatings, etc.)

Eve told the serpent very clearly that she knew what he was suggesting was wrong.

Really? Is that what she said? I missed that one.

puritan lad wrote:Let me ask the question again, a little more clearly:

Can you find any scripture that says that a person is NOT ACCOUNTABLE for their actions due to a lack of knowledge?

I gave a few in that list.

All of the examples you posted were held accountable (received beatings, etc.)

Well actually I gave a couple of examples in which ignorance was the reason why people weren't held accountable:

Acts 17:
30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
31 because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Romans 4:
15 For the law brings wrath, because where there is no law there is no transgression either.

Romans 5:
12 So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned—
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin {Greek 'sin is not reckoned'} when there is no law.

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law. For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.”

1 Timothy 1:
12 I am grateful to the one who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me faithful in putting me into ministry,
13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor, and an arrogant man. But I was treated with mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief,
14 and our Lord's grace was abundant, bringing faith and love in Christ Jesus.

But the fact remains that there is a host of passages which say that those who are held accountable are held accountable on the basis of light - knowledge and understanding. I quoted those passages. That was, after all, the original question.

Eve told the serpent very clearly that she knew what he was suggesting was wrong.

Really? Is that what she said? I missed that one.

I suggest you read it again.

So your saying the still born baby doesn't go to heaven ?
by your explation since none can do it for you, then no small child will go to heaven. none!
The theif on the cross was not baptised by water, yet Jesus told him that he would be in heaven.
What god wants us to learn is unconditional love for everyone and this is what a little child has, before we polute him/her that is.

Deborah wrote:What god wants us to learn is unconditional love for everyone and this is what a little child has, before we polute him/her that is.

What PL wants you to learn is that we're all polluted right from birth, and God hates us from that minute on.

Fortigurn wrote:

Deborah wrote:What god wants us to learn is unconditional love for everyone and this is what a little child has, before we polute him/her that is.

What PL wants you to learn is that we're all polluted right from birth, and God hates us from that minute on.

Ezekiel 18

Ezekiel 18:30
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

tell me what offenses a small child has committed against God. He/she does all that is required.

this makes it clear, the sins we are accountable for are only our own.

Well Deborah, that was a good response. Let's see what PL has to say.

The following is by an internet friend of mine, named Steve Gregg.
Check it out.

http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=19

SoaringEagle

Deborah,

I couldn't help but notice that you used no scriptures in your argument. Most who argue for the "age of accountability" don't use any scriptures, because there aren't any.

Deborah wrote:So your saying the still born baby doesn't go to heaven ?.

That depends on whether or not he was regenerate, like Jeremiah or John the Baptist, or David's son was,

Deborah wrote:by your explation since none can do it for you, then no small child will go to heaven. none!.

Says who? Is God not capable of regenerating an unborn infant?

Deborah wrote:The theif on the cross was not baptised by water, yet Jesus told him that he would be in heaven.

What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

Deborah wrote:What god wants us to learn is unconditional love for everyone and this is what a little child has, before we polute him/her that is.

The scriptures that show original sin, the fact that all of mankind is inherently evil, born into sin, are numerous. Every person who ever lived, currently lives, and every will live is guilty of sin.

1 Kings 8:46
“If any man sin against thee; for there is no man that sinneth not.”

Proverbs 20:9
“Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?”

Ecclesiastes 7:20
“There is not a just man upon earth that doeth good, and sinneth not.”

Romans 3:10
“There is none righteous, no, not one;”

Romans 3:19, 20
“That every mouth may be stopped, and all the world become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

1 John 1:7-10
“If we walk in the light, the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned (or our babies), we make him a lair, and his word is not in us.”

The Bible is clear. ALL mankind is guilty before God. The Bible is also clear that all mankind is guilty from birth.

Psalm 51:5
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.”

Psalm 58:3
“The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.”

Now either the “age of accountability” is wrong, or the Bible is in error. Why do babies die? We have to decide whether or not we are going to believe the Bible. Jonathan Edwards sums up the estate of natural man.

“It is manifest, that this tendency, which has been proved, does not consist in any particular external circumstances that persons are in, peculiarly influencing their minds; but is inherent, and is seated in that nature which is common to all mankind, which they carry with them wherever they go, and still remains the same, however circumstances may differ. For it is implied in what has been proved, and shown to be confessed, that the same event comes to pass in all circumstances. In God's sight no man living can be justified; but all are sinners, and exposed to condemnation. This is true of persons of all constitutions, capacities, conditions, manners, opinions, and educations; in all countries, climates, nations, and ages; and through all the mighty changes and revolutions, which have come to pass in the habitable world.”

Sorry Fortigurn. Not one scripture you listed shows that anyone who is ignorant of the law is not held accountable. Why did God judge sin before He gave the law to Moses? Why did He destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their "lawless deeds" (2 Peter 2:8), since they weren't given the law? Romans 1:20 removes the argument from ignorance from the equation. They "are without excuse".

The "age of accountability" is another gospel, which allows unregenerate sinners into heaven.

John 3:3
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” "

Sorry, no exceptions.