Evidence for God from Science

......................................................The Holy Spirit is Yahweh God.................................................


.........................Temple of God
It is the prerogative of God to inhabit a temple: "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17);

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:19).

God promised to walk among His people: "I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." (Leviticus 26:12). Paul applied this promise to the Holy Spirit dwelling in His temple: "And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: 'I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.'" (2 Corinthians 6:16). Thus the Holy Spirit is God.

.....................Ananias and Sapphira
"But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.'" (Acts 5:3-4). Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

......................By Inspiration
God inspired the Bible: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16).

In more detail, the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets of old: "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:19-21).

The fact that authorship of the Old Testament is indifferently ascribed by New Testament authors to God the Father, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit, is one of the classic proofs of the Trinity.

That it's the Holy Spirit who spoke through the prophets is an iron-clad proof that the Holy Spirit is God. The LORD God spoke through the prophets:

"'And now, because you have done all these works,' says the LORD, 'and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer'...But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.'...Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them. Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers." (Jeremiah 7:13-26).
.
..And the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, not by way of a messenger boy nor an 'active force', but personally:

"And He said to me, 'Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.' Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: 'Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.'" (Ezekiel 2:1-3).

"Yet for many years You had patience with them, And testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets. Yet they would not listen; Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands." (Nehemiah 9:30).

.......................Sanctification
"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin..." (Isaiah 30:1 KJV).

The Spirit cleanses and renews our hearts: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (Psalm 51:10-12).

It is the LORD who sanctifies His people:

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.'" (Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8);

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Namely, it's the Holy Spirit who sanctifies: "Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:15-16).

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11).

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

"To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 1:2).

Thus, the Spirit is the LORD.


......................Today
"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: 'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.'" (Hebrews 3:7-9, quote of Psalm 95). The Holy Spirit, the speaker, is the LORD:

"Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice: do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, as in the day of trial in the wilderness, when your fathers tested Me; they tried Me, though they saw My work. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, and said, 'It is a people who go astray in their hearts, and they do not know My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'" (Psalm 95:6-11).

.....................Good Teacher
The Holy Spirit has always instructed God's children: "Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness." (Psalm 143:10).

"You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, And did not withhold Your manna from their mouth, And gave them water for their thirst." (Nehemiah 9:20).

In these latter days, God promised to Himself personally teach each and every one of His children, from least to the greatest: "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." (John 6:45); "All your children shall be taught by the LORD, And great shall be the peace of your children." (Isaiah 54:13).

Specifically, this course of instruction is brought to us through the anointing of the Holy Spirit:

"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13).

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." (John 16:13).
"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." (1 John 2:27).
So if those taught by the Holy Spirit are "taught of God", the Holy Spirit must be God.

SoaringEagle wrote:......................................................The Holy Spirit is Yahweh God.................................................


.........................Temple of God
It is the prerogative of God to inhabit a temple: "Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17);

"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?" (1 Corinthians 6:19).

God promised to walk among His people: "I will walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." (Leviticus 26:12). Paul applied this promise to the Holy Spirit dwelling in His temple: "And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: 'I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people.'" (2 Corinthians 6:16). Thus the Holy Spirit is God.

.....................Ananias and Sapphira
"But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.'" (Acts 5:3-4). Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God.

......................By Inspiration
God inspired the Bible: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16).

In more detail, the Holy Spirit inspired the prophets of old: "And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." (2 Peter 1:19-21).

The fact that authorship of the Old Testament is indifferently ascribed by New Testament authors to God the Father, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit, is one of the classic proofs of the Trinity.

That it's the Holy Spirit who spoke through the prophets is an iron-clad proof that the Holy Spirit is God. The LORD God spoke through the prophets:

"'And now, because you have done all these works,' says the LORD, 'and I spoke to you, rising up early and speaking, but you did not hear, and I called you, but you did not answer'...But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.'...Since the day that your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have even sent to you all My servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them. Yet they did not obey Me or incline their ear, but stiffened their neck. They did worse than their fathers." (Jeremiah 7:13-26).
.
..And the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophets, not by way of a messenger boy nor an 'active force', but personally:

"And He said to me, 'Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.' Then the Spirit entered me when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet; and I heard Him who spoke to me. And He said to me: 'Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.'" (Ezekiel 2:1-3).

"Yet for many years You had patience with them, And testified against them by Your Spirit in Your prophets. Yet they would not listen; Therefore You gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands." (Nehemiah 9:30).

.......................Sanctification
"Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin..." (Isaiah 30:1 KJV).

The Spirit cleanses and renews our hearts: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation, And uphold me by Your generous Spirit." (Psalm 51:10-12).

It is the LORD who sanctifies His people:

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.'" (Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8);

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Namely, it's the Holy Spirit who sanctifies: "Nevertheless, brethren, I have written more boldly to you on some points, as reminding you, because of the grace given to me by God, that I might be a minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering of the Gentiles might be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit." (Romans 15:15-16).

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:11).

"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

"To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 1:2).

Thus, the Spirit is the LORD.


......................Today
"Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: 'Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years.'" (Hebrews 3:7-9, quote of Psalm 95). The Holy Spirit, the speaker, is the LORD:

"Oh come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the LORD our Maker. For He is our God, and we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand. Today, if you will hear His voice: do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion, as in the day of trial in the wilderness, when your fathers tested Me; they tried Me, though they saw My work. For forty years I was grieved with that generation, and said, 'It is a people who go astray in their hearts, and they do not know My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'" (Psalm 95:6-11).

.....................Good Teacher
The Holy Spirit has always instructed God's children: "Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Your Spirit is good. Lead me in the land of uprightness." (Psalm 143:10).

"You also gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, And did not withhold Your manna from their mouth, And gave them water for their thirst." (Nehemiah 9:20).

In these latter days, God promised to Himself personally teach each and every one of His children, from least to the greatest: "It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me." (John 6:45); "All your children shall be taught by the LORD, And great shall be the peace of your children." (Isaiah 54:13).

Specifically, this course of instruction is brought to us through the anointing of the Holy Spirit:

"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13).

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." (John 16:13).
"But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." (1 John 2:27).
So if those taught by the Holy Spirit are "taught of God", the Holy Spirit must be God.

Soaring Eagle - Amen!

There are also more scriptures than these

You have done a great job of demonstrating that where the Holy Spirit is, the presence of God is. I agree. Wherever God's Spirit is, there His presence is.

Buy you haven't done a good job of proving that the Holy Spirit is a person, still less a member of a trinity. That's the real issue here.

The pronouns used in relation to the Spirit in my opinion advocate personhood. And certainly Jesus uses language designating the personhood of the Spirit in John 16.

Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

Kurieuo

Kurieuo wrote:The pronouns used in relation to the Spirit in my opinion advocate personhood.

Which Greek and Hebrew pronouns did you have in mind? I'm not talking about the pronouns used in English translations (which frequently translate neuter pronouns which the Bible uses for the Spirit as masculine pronouns, to make it sound like the Spirit is a person).

And certainly Jesus uses language designating the personhood of the Spirit in John 16.

God uses even more language designating the 'pesrsonhood' of wisdom in Proverbs 8. Without an understanding the Old Testament context of the New Testament, a comprehension of key and concepts which the New Testament uses is not going to be reached.

Fortigurn,

You wrote,
"You have done a great job of demonstrating that where the Holy Spirit is, the presence of God is. I agree. Wherever God's Spirit is, there His presence is."

Thank you, but my intent was not to show that where the Holy Spirit is the presence of God is. Now I may agree that the Holy Spirit could be the presence of God, but He is also a Person.

So would you say that the Holy Spirit is the extension of the Power of God, which would basically be saying that the Holy Spirit is the Power of God along with being the Presence of God?

To say that the Holy Spirit is the manifest power of God or that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God's power wouldn't make sense in comparison to these Scriptures:

Luke 4:14 - Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region

Rom. 1:4 - and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Rom. 15:13 - Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 15:19 - in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ

Here we see that the Holy Spirit has power, and one would be hard pressed to explain these if one thinks that the Holy Spirit is just the power of God.



Joh 6:63 - Show Context
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

Joh 7:39 - Show Context
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 14:17 - Show Context
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you

Joh 14:26 - Show Context
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Joh 15:26 - Show Context
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Joh 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Ac 5:32 - Show Context
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Ro 5:5 - Show Context
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Ro 8:11 - Show Context
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Ro 8:16 - Show Context
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

1Co 6:19 - Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2Ti 1:14 - Show Context
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us

Jas 4:5 - Show Context
Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?

1Jo 3:24 - Show Context
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us

1Jo 5:6 - Show Context
This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth

Eph 4:30 - Show Context
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In these 16 Scriptures, we see that the Holy Spirit is referred to a Person 29 times. Which is way more than lady wisdom in proverbs. Something that specifically sets apart the Holy Spirit from lady wisdom is that she is not described as being eternal, all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent, and isn't considered or called God, whereas the Holy Spirit IS.

1 John 4:8 says God is love. And from looking at the following three Scriptures, we can see that God, the Son, the Spirit have love. In the same way that the love of Christ is used, the love of the Spirit is used as with the love of God. Each Jesus said the Father loves the Son, showing that the Father has love, as does the Son and the Spirit.

Rom 8:35 - Who shall separate us from the ?
Rom 15:30 - Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit
2Cor 13:14 - Show Context
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

So just as love is of God and of Christ, it is also specifically said to be of the Spirit. So can power or presence be capable of having love?

..................................................The Holy Spirit can Speak
Joh 15:26 - Show Context
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Joh 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;

Acts 1:16 - "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;

Acts 8:29 - Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."

Acts 10:19 - While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you.

Acts 11:12 - Then the Spirit told meto go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.

Acts 13:2 - As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Acts 20:22 - And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 24 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me

Acts 21:11 - When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.' "

Acts 28:25 - So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,

1Tim 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 3:7 - Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,

Heb 10:15 - But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Rev 2:7 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."

Rev 2:11 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Rev 2:17 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

Rev 2:29 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:6 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:13 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:22 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "

Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely

So from these 21 Scriptures we see that the Holy Spirit can and does speak, and is said to be able to hear.


We also are said to be able to "fellowship" with the Holy Spirit.


Php 2:1 - Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy

1 John 1:3 - truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ,

1Co 1:9 - God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

So in the same way we have fellowship with the Father and the Son, we are able to have fellowship with the Spirit.

in these three scriptures, the word "fellowship" in the greek is 'koinonia'
it is defined as - association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, the share which one has in anything, participation, fellowship, intimacy.

So we are able to "fellowship with the Holy Spirit, and notice that we are to do so in the same way with the Father and the Son. If the Holy Spirit is just power or presence, then I guess the Father and the Son is too, or else all or Persons, and fellowship with us in the same way.

This to me concludes that the Holy Spirit is a Person, the Third Witness/Person of the Godhead/Trinity.

Be blessed,
SoaringEagle

SoaringEagle wrote:Fortigurn,

You wrote,
"You have done a great job of demonstrating that where the Holy Spirit is, the presence of God is. I agree. Wherever God's Spirit is, there His presence is."

Thank you, but my intent was not to show that where the Holy Spirit is the presence of God is. Now I may agree that the Holy Spirit could be the presence of God, but He is also a Person.

Yes I know that was your intent. My point is that you haven't actually done this yet.

So would you say that the Holy Spirit is the extension of the Power of God, which would basically be saying that the Holy Spirit is the Power of God along with being the Presence of God?

Yes most certainly.

To say that the Holy Spirit is the manifest power of God or that the Holy Spirit is an extension of God's power wouldn't make sense in comparison to these Scriptures:

Luke 4:14 - Then Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and news of Him went out through all the surrounding region

Rom. 1:4 - and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Rom. 15:13 - Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Rom. 15:19 - in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ

Here we see that the Holy Spirit has power, and one would be hard pressed to explain these if one thinks that the Holy Spirit is just the power of God.

The Holy Spirit is actually described here as powerful. It isn't described as a person with power.

Joh 6:63 - Show Context
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life

Joh 7:39 - Show Context
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Joh 14:17 - Show Context
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you

Joh 14:26 - Show Context
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Joh 15:26 - Show Context
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Joh 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Ac 5:32 - Show Context
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Ro 5:5 - Show Context
Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Ro 8:11 - Show Context
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Ro 8:16 - Show Context
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

1Co 6:19 - Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

2Ti 1:14 - Show Context
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us

Jas 4:5 - Show Context
Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?

1Jo 3:24 - Show Context
Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us

1Jo 5:6 - Show Context
This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth

Eph 4:30 - Show Context
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

In these 16 Scriptures, we see that the Holy Spirit is referred to a Person 29 times.

Nok, we see that the pronouns here are translated as referring to a person. That's a very different matter.

Which is way more than lady wisdom in proverbs.

So what?

Something that specifically sets apart the Holy Spirit from lady wisdom is that she is not described as being eternal, all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent, and isn't considered or called God, whereas the Holy Spirit IS.

I am not arguing that wisdom is God. I am pointing out that the argument you are making that the Holy Spirit is a person can be made for wisdom.

1 John 4:8 says God is love. And from looking at the following three Scriptures, we can see that God, the Son, the Spirit have love. In the same way that the love of Christ is used, the love of the Spirit is used as with the love of God. Each Jesus said the Father loves the Son, showing that the Father has love, as does the Son and the Spirit.

Rom 8:35 - Who shall separate us from the ?
Rom 15:30 - Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit

2Cor 13:14 - Show Context
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

So just as love is of God and of Christ, it is also specifically said to be of the Spirit. So can power or presence be capable of having love?

I don't see the Holy Spirit loving anyone here.

..................................................The Holy Spirit can Speak
Joh 15:26 - Show Context
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Joh 16:13 - Show Context
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;

Acts 1:16 - "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;

Acts 8:29 - Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."

Acts 10:19 - While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you.

Acts 11:12 - Then the Spirit told meto go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.

Acts 13:2 - As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them."

Acts 20:22 - And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 24 except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me

Acts 21:11 - When he had come to us, he took Paul's belt, bound his own hands and feet, and said, "Thus says the Holy Spirit, 'So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this belt, and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.' "

Acts 28:25 - So when they did not agree among themselves, they departed after Paul had said one word: "The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,

1Tim 4:1 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 3:7 - Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice,

Heb 10:15 - But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," 17 then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Rev 2:7 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God."

Rev 2:11 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '

Rev 2:17 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." '

Rev 2:29 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:6 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:13 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." '

Rev 3:22 - He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "

Rev 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely

So from these 21 Scriptures we see that the Holy Spirit can and does speak, and is said to be able to hear.

The Word of God can speak too (the Scriptures), and so can the blood of Abel (Genesis 4:10), as well as 'the pay you have held back from the workers who mowed your fields' (James 5:4). You have to prove to me that these are not anthropomorphisms (difficult to do given that the Holy Spirit is spoken of frequently as the agent of God, rather than as God).

We also are said to be able to "fellowship" with the Holy Spirit.


Php 2:1 - Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy

1 John 1:3 - truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ,

1Co 1:9 - God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

So in the same way we have fellowship with the Father and the Son, we are able to have fellowship with the Spirit.

The NET footnote on Philippains 2:1 rightly says:

1tn Or “spiritual fellowship” if pneuvmato" (pneumato") is an attributive genitive; or “fellowship brought about by the Spirit” if pneuvmato" is a genitive of source or production.

This isn't saying that we have fellowship with the Holy Spirit as a person. Your other quotes don't even mention the Holy Spirit.

in these three scriptures, the word "fellowship" in the greek is 'koinonia it is defined as - association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, the share which one has in anything, participation, fellowship, intimacy.

Yes, I'm familiar with the word. But it's the phrase you need to be looking at here, not the word koinonia.

SoaringEagle wrote:Fortigurn, Thank you, but my intent was not to show that where the Holy Spirit is the presence of God is. Now I may agree that the Holy Spirit could be the presence of God, but He is also a Person.

Fortigurn wrote:Yes I know that was your intent. My point is that you haven't actually done this yet.

The Word of God can speak too (the Scriptures), and so can the blood of Abel (Genesis 4:10), as well as 'the pay you have held back from the workers who mowed your fields' (James 5:4). You have to prove to me that these are not anthropomorphisms (difficult to do given that the Holy Spirit is spoken of frequently as the agent of God, rather than as God).

Mr. Fortigurn, you do like to quote from bible.org often but have you really read everything they say on the subject?

Trinity Explained - From:

http://www.bible.org/illus.asp?topic_id=1601

The word “trinity” is not found in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a word used to describe one fact the Bible teaches about God: Our God is a Trinity. This means there are three persons in one God, not three Gods. The persons are known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and they have all always existed as three separate persons. The person of the Father is not the same person as the Son. The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God. God has always been a trinity from all eternity: “From everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God” (Ps. 90:2).

God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. This belief is known today as the “Jesus Only Movement.” It is taught by the United Apostolic and United Pentecostal churches, and is an incorrect teaching.

Nor is God only one person as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, and the Christadelphians teach (These groups are classified as non-Christian cults). For proof that there is more than one person in the Godhead, see the Plurality Study.

The Bible says there is only one God. Yet, it says Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons. Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He is a separate person. There is one God who exists in three persons.

The following chart should help you understand how the Trinity doctrine is derived. See:

http://www.bible.org/illus.asp?topic_id=1601

Charts of Christian Theology and Doctrine, H. Wayne House, (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publ. House, 1992), pp. 48-49

B. W. wrote:Mr. Fortigurn, you do like to quote from bible.org often but have you really read everything they say on the subject?

No, not everythying, but I have read the articles to which you have directed me.

The word “trinity” is not found in the Bible. Nevertheless, it is a word used to describe one fact the Bible teaches about God: Our God is a Trinity. This means there are three persons in one God, not three Gods. The persons are known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and they have all always existed as three separate persons. The person of the Father is not the same person as the Son. The person of the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. The person of the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Father. If you take away any one, there is no God. God has always been a trinity from all eternity: “From everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God” (Ps. 90:2).

God is not one person who took three forms, i.e., the Father who became the Son, who then became the Holy Spirit. This belief is known today as the “Jesus Only Movement.” It is taught by the United Apostolic and United Pentecostal churches, and is an incorrect teaching.

Nor is God only one person as the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way International, and the Christadelphians teach (These groups are classified as non-Christian cults). For proof that there is more than one person in the Godhead, see the Plurality Study.

Yes, I've read all this before. I have also answered it all before.

The Bible says there is only one God. Yet, it says Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons. Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He is a separate person. There is one God who exists in three persons.

I am fully aware of this syllogism. The point is that it fails, because the Bible does not say that either Christ or the Holy Spirit are God. The trinity also results in a logical contradiction.

The following chart should help you understand how the Trinity doctrine is derived. See:

I am fully aware of how the trinity doctrine is derived. I have been through this before. One of the greatest problems with the trinity doctrine is that it is a derived doctrine, not a doctrine stated in Scripture.

Fortigurn wrote:I am fully aware of how the trinity doctrine is derived. I have been through this before. One of the greatest problems with the trinity doctrine is that it is a derived doctrine, not a doctrine stated in Scripture.

Yes, and Christadelphian doctrine is derived too!!!

The doctrine of the Trinity is stated clearly in scripture, too bad you cannot see it

Question - do Christadelphians really believe that they are the only church and means of salvation?

Locker wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:I am fully aware of how the trinity doctrine is derived. I have been through this before. One of the greatest problems with the trinity doctrine is that it is a derived doctrine, not a doctrine stated in Scripture.

Yes, and Christadelphian doctrine is derived too!!!

The doctrine of the Trinity is stated clearly in scripture, too bad you cannot see it

Question - do Christadelphians really believe that they are the only church and means of salvation?

Apparently so, as you notice how Fortigurn in most of his posts, pushes his doctrine out of a small key hole because it is THAT important that we better listen up or shut up. 8 years of personal research is all fine and dandy for him, but there have been people doing it for most of their life that are not of his "religion". According to him, we seem like the atheists to him because we won't accept his views. He even discredits J.P. Holding, probably others as well.

Locker wrote:

Fortigurn wrote:I am fully aware of how the trinity doctrine is derived. I have been through this before. One of the greatest problems with the trinity doctrine is that it is a derived doctrine, not a doctrine stated in Scripture.

Yes, and Christadelphian doctrine is derived too!!!

Do show me, please.

The doctrine of the Trinity is stated clearly in scripture, too bad you cannot see it

You have actually told me that it is a derived doctrine, so I'm sure you realise that it's not 'stated clearly in Scripture'. But do show me all the passages which define God as three persons in one being.

Question - do Christadelphians really believe that they are the only church and means of salvation?

No, not in the least.

Thinker wrote:Apparently so, as you notice how Fortigurn in most of his posts, pushes his doctrine out of a small key hole because it is THAT important that we better listen up or shut up.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I have never said that people should listen or shut up.

8 years of personal research is all fine and dandy for him, but there have been people doing it for most of their life that are not of his "religion".

The '8 years of personal research' comment referred to my studies in eschatology, not my studies in theology and Christology. Of course I recognise that many people have been studying this for a lot longer than I have.

According to him, we seem like the atheists to him because we won't accept his views.

I have never said anything remotely like this.

He even discredits J.P. Holding, probably others as well.

I don't 'discredit' him, I have simply disagreed with him. If you want to see 'Holding' discredited, I suggest you read a few articles like those here, here, here, and here.

What concerns me the most is that unChristlike behaviour from 'Holding' causes an otherwise excellent apologetic ministry (which I have used more than once myself), to be defamed by atheists and skeptics. This reflects badly on Christians.

For one, Holding/Turkel may have some issues but I think the mentioned sites are a bit unreliable. The skeptic one really pissed me off (atheists should be killed, anyway) and the others were religious propaganda websites.

Ark~Magic wrote:For one, Holding/Turkel may have some issues but I think the mentioned sites are a bit unreliable. The skeptic one really pissed me off (atheists should be killed, anyway) and the others were religious propaganda websites.

That's where Muslims come in handy !