Witnessing to Muslims, Part Two

[Christian2]

OK, folks, I have been talking to a Muslim for about a week and I am just about ready to give up. This is his latest post.

From Christian2: ''I asked you to put aside the concept of the Trinity and consider whether Jesus made claims that only God can make. Yes He did. For one Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. If you sin against me, I can forgive you, but if you sin against God, only God can forgive you, yet Jesus forgave sins against God. ''

From the Muslim: This is a claim made by Paul etc. Not Verified Authentically by Jesus himself. And Jesus can also Forgive Sins against God if God allows his Prophet Or Messenger to relay this to the ppl...a Messenger or Prophet does not need to be God himself to know if God has forgiven Sins against God. For example...if you revert To Islam...then your Previous Sins against God are forgiven by God...now Muhammed (saw) relayed this message to us...but does that mean Muhammed is a God as well?

And why should we caste aside the Most Fundamental Part of your Faith? Your Most integral Doctrine? How can we believe in God if we dont know what God wants us to believe?

We do not believe that Jesus blaspemised the way Paul did, hence we reject this notion of Trinity.

From Christian2: ''There are some people who call themselves Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as defined by Trinitarian Christians, yet they believe that Jesus was God. They believe that it was the Father who manifested Himself in the human body of Jesus. ''

From the Muslim: Exactly...so there are no set rules, why not? Why didnt Jesus fix these things? There is a difference of opinion in all matters...but in the Creed? In the most basic side of one's Faith? Some saying we believe in Jesus...but not as a Trinitarian God of any sort. Yet they still remain as Christians?

From Christian2: ''I asked you why God chose to have Jesus born miraculously. ''

From the Muslim: If you claim something is a Miracle...then you do not seek to find a explaination behind it...because it is Miraculous...ie Unexplained...u use an Analogy to prove that Jesus is God cos he was born without a Father...but by Analogical Deduction...Adam is more virtuous...cos he was the first of the Creations and had no Parents whatsoever. If God wanted then he could have chosen another way to make it less Miraculous cos God is capable of anything as you have already admitted...so again this point is a fallacy.

From Christian2: ''Adam was not divine. There was no other way for Adam to be born, but there was another way for Jesus to be born. Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament. Adam could be described as God's "son" in the figurative sense because Adam never would have been if it weren't for God. ''

From the Muslim: Why was he not Divine? Isnt Jesus beyond Divinity? I mean God must be above your sense of Divinity? So why does this matter?

And the same verses you use to show that Jesus was actually the Son of God can also be intrepated in this way as well. Like many Unitarians do.
And correct me if im wrong...but we all would never be if it wasnt for God...see this is the problem...who was responsible for the being of Jesus on this Earth? Jesus himself or the Father? Who created God? Can God be created? Does God take birth? Or has God always existed?

This is one of our main arguements against the Ahtiests...that God always existed...but for everything to exist...there must be a First Cause...nuclear particles cannot create themselves on their own and nor can space dust just exist...that is beyond their definition...but if you say God was created...the way you do with Jesus...that God took birth...then this contradicts the way God is infinite and beyond creation and thus we need another an alternative First Cause...it messes everything up.

U say Jesus was a Manifestation of God? Why would u degrade God in this way? That God comes to Earth...eats...sleeps and Poos...and does all the Humanly things...goes riding a camel looking for figs in the wrong season? Does this not go against God's Godly attributes and Majesty? How can God be Godly if you limit God to a Human figure? And what a failure for God...that God comes to Earth himself and still cant convince everyone to believe in him so that they can be saved...i mean if God cant achieve this Job...then what chance have previous Prophets or Messengers? What chance do Missionaries have? If your Godly Jesus himself could not convince everyone...u really think ure gonna convince ppl to believe in him as a God?

From Christian2: ''The prophets of the Old Testament did believe in Jesus because they were hoping that the Messiah would come during their lifetime. ''

As a Messiah...or a Prophet...Messenger...but not as a Manifestation of God or as God himself. This is the blasphemy and this is where the pattern disrupts. Past Prophets come and preach pure Monotheisism...and then God decides to come himself in the form of a Man...disrupting this pure Monothesism after so many thousands of years. Doesnt make any sense does it? Its not correlative of the past.

From Christian2: ''The Father did not kill His Son; We did, you and I. ''

Who created us? How were we created? Weak or Perfect? We werent created so that we would sin and then somebody else would come and repent for us. We were created so that we would have an objective in life...a Mission...to strive...there is no striving in your Theory my friend. God creates us the way we are to sin and then realises He made a mistake cos we cant cover our own sins...so He Kills His Son to seek repentance on our behalf? How is this justice or Right? Didnt God know we were gonna Sin? Could God have avoiding the Killing of His Son?

From Christian2: ''How are you saved, (Muslim)? How do you pay for your sins?''

From the Muslim: Yeh God asked for Sacrifices of Lambs...but not his Own Son...Gosh God cannot sacrifice anything of His Own...that is against the Majesty of God...we Need God...God doesnt Need us...if God sacrificed his own Son whom he Must have loved more than anybody else...sorry i mean God must have Loved Himself...then God would ask us to strive for His Sake because we Need God. U know what happened to past nations who denied God.

By taking Responsibility of my own actions and not relying on a Godly figure to repent on my behalf...not on others Shoulders...but on my own...by seeking the Pleasure of God...not by allowing Him to die for me...i mean can God die? By seeking forgiveness through encouraged good work...so that this benefits not only myself but others whom i have been placed with in this world...benefitting them...not using them by getting them to die for me...thats so selfish...I sin...and instead of repenting for myself...i get somebody else to die and repent and cover my Sins. Our Idea and Sense of seeking forgiveness is alot different from the Christians. God forgives Whom He Wills...Whom God considers to be Sincere...because God is also the Best of Judges.

So please do not accuse me of Killing God.

Again i ask you...are the Muslims saved cos we believe and love Jesus and we believe in One God??? Its fine to say im not saved if this is what u believe.

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Sometimes trying to reach Muslims is so difficult. Mind bloggling. Now I am asking you: How do we effectively witness to Muslims? The problem is the Qur'an; they think it comes from God; how do we counter that? And notice the Paul stuff. I run into this all the time--it was Paul, Paul, Paul--Paul didn't teach what Jesus taught, etc., etc.

[Judah]

Christian2, this is just a quick response as it is very late here, and I would like to come back to it again tomorrow. However, I do have some initial observations to share right now.

What really stands out to me here is the intellectual nature of the discourse and the fact that the Muslim is making his own rules, defining God for himself, and believes he has the superior knowledge over you.
There is no engagement with his heart or with his soul. He is not allowing that to happen. He has no need for Christ according to himself. He has his answers off pat.

Personally, I rather doubt that you are going to raise a question that he cannot answer because he already believes he is right and you are wrong, and knows why according to his own religion. He will show you were you are wrong, then you can convert to Islam.

An essential part of witness is our prayers for the other, and our hope that God will play on his heart enough to make him more receptive to the message. And even then, it is a matter of free will. If this Muslim is determined to resist the message of Christ, then that is his choice for which he will be held accountable in the end.

We can keep praying and should keep praying, but in the end the matter is between himself and God - and you have done your part anyway.
Who knows... he may turn to Christ sometime in the future. Your role may have been to help till the soil, but it might be another event altogether that must occur before the soil is ready to nurture the seed.
I know for me that it was a brush with death in the form of a bad car accident that pushed me along to a saving faith in Christ. This guy is so up in his head, something needs to touch his heart and soul and that has not happened for him yet.

I think you are incredibly patient. I feel mindboggled and daunted before even starting when it comes to witnessing sometimes. I am currently talking with someone who mixes Christianity with Hindu beliefs and does not speak English very well. He says that the preachings of Jesus are the climax of truth, yet he keeps referring to Gita to verify truth and cannot see the irrationality of doing so given his statement about Jesus. It is very hard to deal with faith matters on an intellectual level only.

What do you think you will say next to this Muslim?
I think his mind is closed, and he is not unsettled enough to be open to the truth that we know.
I would like to ponder some more on this. It certainly is not easy, is it?

[Christian2]

Christian2, this is just a quick response as it is very late here, and I would like to come back to it again tomorrow. However, I do have some initial observations to share right now.

What really stands out to me here is the intellectual nature of the discourse and the fact that the Muslim is making his own rules, defining God for himself, and believes he has the superior knowledge over you.
There is no engagement with his heart or with his soul. He is not allowing that to happen. He has no need for Christ according to himself. He has his answers off pat.

Personally, I rather doubt that you are going to raise a question that he cannot answer because he already believes he is right and you are wrong, and knows why according to his own religion. He will show you were you are wrong, then you can convert to Islam.

An essential part of witness is our prayers for the other, and our hope that God will play on his heart enough to make him more receptive to the message. And even then, it is a matter of free will. If this Muslim is determined to resist the message of Christ, then that is his choice for which he will be held accountable in the end.

We can keep praying and should keep praying, but in the end the matter is between himself and God - and you have done your part anyway.
Who knows... he may turn to Christ sometime in the future. Your role may have been to help till the soil, but it might be another event altogether that must occur before the soil is ready to nurture the seed.
I know for me that it was a brush with death in the form of a bad car accident that pushed me along to a saving faith in Christ. This guy is so up in his head, something needs to touch his heart and soul and that has not happened for him yet.

I think you are incredibly patient. I feel mindboggled and daunted before even starting when it comes to witnessing sometimes. I am currently talking with someone who mixes Christianity with Hindu beliefs and does not speak English very well. He says that the preachings of Jesus are the climax of truth, yet he keeps referring to Gita to verify truth and cannot see the irrationality of doing so given his statement about Jesus. It is very hard to deal with faith matters on an intellectual level only.

What do you think you will say next to this Muslim?
I think his mind is closed, and he is not unsettled enough to be open to the truth that we know.
I would like to ponder some more on this. It certainly is not easy, is it?

Thanks for your thoughts, Judah. I'm not sure how I am going to respond to this guy. I intend to re-read John Gilchrist's articles: http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/3a.html

who has been witnessing to Muslims for most of his life.

And I am reminding myself of what Jesus and His disciples went through and they never gave up. I will get inspiration from them.

I do see that the Muslims don't see the need for a savior such as Jesus--they can do it themselves--or save themselves by good works--and they rely on God to forgive them for their sins. I don't think they realize how much and how deeply they sin. I know that I didn't see how much of a sinner I was until I had someone to compare myself to -- Jesus. I always compared myself to other people and compared to them I didn't look so bad. lol

[Judah]

C2, that is an interesting article by John Gilchrist.
The following excerpt touches on something I had been wondering about when I read your original post here.

We too need to be sensitive, not only towards Muslims as people with needs and misgivings, but also towards the Spirit of God who alone can convert people, who "blows where he wills" (John 8.3), and who is not impatient. We must be discerning, as Jesus was, and discover patiently those with whom the Holy Spirit is really working and not seek to prematurely reap the fruit before it is fully ripe or, worse still, mistake leaves for fruit by enticing Muslims to make commitments who are nowhere near genuine conversion. Even before the wood is thrown into the fire, five ounces of gold are of greater value than five hundred pounds of wood.

The Spirit of God alone can convert people... and We must be discerning, as Jesus was, and discover patiently those with whom the Holy Spirit is really working...

How do you know, in this instance, if the Holy Spirit is really working here with this Muslim?
Do you believe that to be so?
If you do, what evidence do you have that gives you to believe that?

I don't know the answer, and my question is one of interest so that I can learn more too.

I wonder something...
Is this Muslim seeking you out to ask questions of Christianity?
If so, is it his effort to witness and convert you to Islam, or is it in the hope he might find something about Christianity that he is looking for himself personally?
Who has the most energy for this dialogue... him or you? And for what motives?
My impression was that he had little or no personal need for Christ (in his view) and that maybe the Holy Spirit was not really working there.
But I could be missing things altogether.

The problem of his constant harping on about Paul...
There are many words of Jesus in the four gospels (a Bible where these are written in red is useful) and I wondered if more presentation of those verses, rather than discussing theological issues, would help with that problem. Paul was not even in the picture then, so he can hardly insist that Paul had much to do with the actual words that Jesus spoke.

I still get the feeling that something has to rattle his cage, so to speak, to make him more available to hearing the message.

How long do you keep it going?
There is a Bible verse that comes to mind... about shaking the dust from your feet and leaving town.

Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

When might that apply?

These are the thoughts in my mind just now, but I don't know the answers.
I do think you are very patient, despite your frustration, and very courteous and respectful as well.
Those are obviously good things, and good witness to our faith.

[Christian2]

Judah,

I've given this subject some thought and decided based on the length of my conversation with this guy that it would not be worth while responding at all. Not that I am giving up on him or any other Muslim.

My next approach will be to concentrate on the things that Islam and Christianity have in common and build on that.

This is a good article with suggestions in witnessing to Muslims.

http://www.homestead.com/mentorandm...18_Robinson.htm

I can see that witnessing face to face and witnessing on discussion boards may involve different techniques. I need to spend a little time thinking what I can do on the boards.

My first project will be to concentrate on the birth of Jesus--both Muslims and Christians believe that it was God's miracle and that Mary was a virgin. Muslims have a high regard for Mary. I might try to fit something about that into the conversation.

C2

[B. W.]

Judah,

I've given this subject some thought and decided based on the length of my conversation with this guy that it would not be worth while responding at all. Not that I am giving up on him or any other Muslim.

My next approach will be to concentrate on the things that Islam and Christianity have in common and build on that.

This is a good article with suggestions in witnessing to Muslims.

http://www.homestead.com/mentorandm...18_Robinson.htm

I can see that witnessing face to face and witnessing on discussion boards may involve different techniques. I need to spend a little time thinking what I can do on the boards.

My first project will be to concentrate on the birth of Jesus--both Muslims and Christians believe that it was God's miracle and that Mary was a virgin. Muslims have a high regard for Mary. I might try to fit something about that into the conversation.

C2

You need prayer for this! I'll begin now and anyone else please pray for C2.

You have courage, my friend, to do what you are doing

[Byblos]

Judah,

I've given this subject some thought and decided based on the length of my conversation with this guy that it would not be worth while responding at all. Not that I am giving up on him or any other Muslim.

My next approach will be to concentrate on the things that Islam and Christianity have in common and build on that.

This is a good article with suggestions in witnessing to Muslims.

http://www.homestead.com/mentorandm...18_Robinson.htm

I can see that witnessing face to face and witnessing on discussion boards may involve different techniques. I need to spend a little time thinking what I can do on the boards.

My first project will be to concentrate on the birth of Jesus--both Muslims and Christians believe that it was God's miracle and that Mary was a virgin. Muslims have a high regard for Mary. I might try to fit something about that into the conversation.

C2

You need prayer for this! I'll begin now and anyone else please pray for C2.

You have courage, my friend, to do what you are doing

You certainly have my prayers too. I lived with Moslems for the better part of my youth life and I could never do what you are doing. For that you have earned my enormous respect. Our thoughts and prayers are with you, good luck.

Always in Christ,

Byblos.

[Judah]

I have read many of the conversations back and forth between Christians and Muslims on those forums, and have not experienced any leading to join in.

However, what I have felt lead to do - and it seems to be having results - is to make known as widely as possible the truth about Islam, the real naked truth of Islam undressed, so that more and more people will understand the real threat of this ideology to all of us.

To do this I have been using my own website, particulary Judah's Journal.
I have a reciprocal link with Mark Alexander who wrote the book "Dawning of a New Dark Age: A Collection of Essays on Islam". Mark writes very well and his message is consistent with that of Dr Mark Gabriel, Vernon Richards, Robert Spencer and others who are sharing the real truth.
I am getting an increasing amount of traffic and the message is getting shared.
I see this as one way of reversing the effects of "taqiyya" or the dishonesty and concealment of Muslims about their religion. The more information we have about the threat, the more awareness of its true nature, then the more we may be able to resist and oversome it.

I also make comparisons between Christianity and Islam, but I am aiming more towards educating Christians and other non-Muslims rather than witnessing to Muslims at all.

C2, you have my prayers as well.

[Believer]

What is the real truth of Islam, Judah?

[Judah]

Thinker, there has been much written about it on several threads on this forum. There have been links posted to various papers and mention of several authentic authors. There is also a link to my own site.

The problem we are facing is that of the aggressive encroachment of Islam into the West with their intention to dominate the world, achieving total submission of all people everywhere to the worship of Allah, and to make sharia law universal. This is the real Islam, the Islam of the Qur'an.

Not every Muslim is motivated to push Islam to that extent, but there is a very dangerous movement towards that end and it is that movement that needs to be checked and stopped.

[Believer]

So, Islam, being a false religion with a false god, is motivating them to gain world dominance because they don't want to hear "you're wrong" from the rest of the world anymore?

[Judah]

Well, I would agree that Islam is a false religion with a false god - some would not even call it a religion, seeing it more as a political ideology, a form of totalitarianism - and that it is motivating certain Muslims to gain world dominance for Islam.

But I think the rest of your sentence - because they don't want to hear "you're wrong" from the rest of the world anymore - rather simplifies it all too much and misses the point.

Many Muslims have very strong faith in their beliefs, as Christian2 can testify to, having witnessed to them with very great patience for some time.
Simply hearing from others that they are wrong is unlikely to be the reason for their drive to convert everyone to Islam.
They have been commanded by Allah and by their prophet Muhammad to cause all people to submit to Allah, to worship him alone, or else to be "subdued" and persecuted and be killed.
It is a divine commandment to which they are being obedient.

This is the Islam of the correctly interpreted Qur'an, the interpretation that takes into account the theology of abrogation as defined in the Qur'an itself and in the aHadith.

To say of you as a Christian, that you want others to become Christians only because you don't want to hear "you're wrong" from them anymore, would probably not be correct either. At least, I hope not!
So it is with Muslims. They are showing their obedience to Allah and Muhammad who demands this of them, and they believe that Allah will reward them for their faithfulness to his will.

[Christian2]

Judah,

I also make comparisons between Christianity and Islam, but I am aiming more towards educating Christians and other non-Muslims rather than witnessing to Muslims at all.

This is a worthy effort, Judah. Thank you for your prayers and I intend to keep you in my prayers.

Part of our effort should be to educate other Christians about their own religion. Time and time again I find that Christians do not know their religion well enough to explain it to non-Christians and especially Muslims. I think this is vital in countering Islam. Sites such as this one help in that effort.

So many of the arguments against Christianity that I hear from Muslims comes from the Muslim polemic sites such as Answering-Christianity which is a horribly misleading site. We Christians need to have answers ready and so many of us don't.

I also participate on a very small site that has a lot of atheists/agnostics. We discuss Islam and all are pretty much informed. The atheists/agnostics thrown all kinds of allegations against Christianity--"you believe in fairy tales, your Bible is not reliable, you have no proof," and junk. Some of it echoes the Muslim allegations against Christianity.

Atheists are a tough bunch!! In a way, Muslims are easier to reach. At least they believe there is a God.

Thanks to all for the support.

[Judah]

C2, have you discovered Mark Alexander's book "The Dawning of a New Dark Age", yet?

Mark (his assumed name) is another credible writer, a Christian himself, who has lived many years in Saudi Arabia and is voicing his concern about the aggressive imperialism of Islam and the effect of what is already happening to our own Judeo-Christian culture. His knowledge of the real Islam matches that of other credible writers - Mark Gabriel, et al.

He has asked me to review his book for him, and will be putting the review on his website. So far I am finding it an excellent (scary!) read and he is particularly good at disclosing the Muslim viewpoint in all these matters.

I can already see that I will be recommending his book as a useful text for Christians to read. Mark tells me that, written in 2003, it is also appearing in quite a few Christian bookshops now.

(A link to his site is on my own site).

[Christian2]

C2, have you discovered Mark Alexander's book "The Dawning of a New Dark Age", yet?

Mark (his assumed name) is another credible writer, a Christian himself, who has lived many years in Saudi Arabia and is voicing his concern about the aggressive imperialism of Islam and the effect of what is already happening to our own Judeo-Christian culture. His knowledge of the real Islam matches that of other credible writers - Mark Gabriel, et al.

He has asked me to review his book for him, and will be putting the review on his website. So far I am finding it an excellent (scary!) read and he is particularly good at disclosing the Muslim viewpoint in all these matters.

I can already see that I will be recommending his book as a useful text for Christians to read. Mark tells me that, written in 2003, it is also appearing in quite a few Christian bookshops now.

(A link to his site is on my own site).

No I haven't read the book but I will put in on my book order list.

Here is a bit of encouragement for you that a fellow Christian posted to me on another site:

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http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/a ... toryid=456

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Announcement/512010029.htm

Here are a couple of links to the growth of Christianity in Iran. I actually heard about it from an Iranian friend of mine. He says that secret church houses are popping up all over the place.

Another friend of mine just came back from Peace Corps work in Kazakhstan and says that Christianity is exploding there.

Chinese Christians, in a project called "Back to Jerusalem" are preparing to send 100,000 missionaries into the Middle East (over a period of years, of course). Wouldn't it be funny if Communist, atheist China was the source of the gospel penetrating the Muslim world?

******
So, there is good news popping up.

What an honor to be asked for an opinion on a book, Judah.