Witnessing to Muslims, Part Two
Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:44 am
OK, folks, I have been talking to a Muslim for about a week and I am just about ready to give up. This is his latest post.
From Christian2: ''I asked you to put aside the concept of the Trinity and consider whether Jesus made claims that only God can make. Yes He did. For one Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. If you sin against me, I can forgive you, but if you sin against God, only God can forgive you, yet Jesus forgave sins against God. ''
From the Muslim: This is a claim made by Paul etc. Not Verified Authentically by Jesus himself. And Jesus can also Forgive Sins against God if God allows his Prophet Or Messenger to relay this to the ppl...a Messenger or Prophet does not need to be God himself to know if God has forgiven Sins against God. For example...if you revert To Islam...then your Previous Sins against God are forgiven by God...now Muhammed (saw) relayed this message to us...but does that mean Muhammed is a God as well?
And why should we caste aside the Most Fundamental Part of your Faith? Your Most integral Doctrine? How can we believe in God if we dont know what God wants us to believe?
We do not believe that Jesus blaspemised the way Paul did, hence we reject this notion of Trinity.
From Christian2: ''There are some people who call themselves Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as defined by Trinitarian Christians, yet they believe that Jesus was God. They believe that it was the Father who manifested Himself in the human body of Jesus. ''
From the Muslim: Exactly...so there are no set rules, why not? Why didnt Jesus fix these things? There is a difference of opinion in all matters...but in the Creed? In the most basic side of one's Faith? Some saying we believe in Jesus...but not as a Trinitarian God of any sort. Yet they still remain as Christians?
From Christian2: ''I asked you why God chose to have Jesus born miraculously. ''
From the Muslim: If you claim something is a Miracle...then you do not seek to find a explaination behind it...because it is Miraculous...ie Unexplained...u use an Analogy to prove that Jesus is God cos he was born without a Father...but by Analogical Deduction...Adam is more virtuous...cos he was the first of the Creations and had no Parents whatsoever. If God wanted then he could have chosen another way to make it less Miraculous cos God is capable of anything as you have already admitted...so again this point is a fallacy.
From Christian2: ''Adam was not divine. There was no other way for Adam to be born, but there was another way for Jesus to be born. Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament. Adam could be described as God's "son" in the figurative sense because Adam never would have been if it weren't for God. ''
From the Muslim: Why was he not Divine? Isnt Jesus beyond Divinity? I mean God must be above your sense of Divinity? So why does this matter?
And the same verses you use to show that Jesus was actually the Son of God can also be intrepated in this way as well. Like many Unitarians do.
And correct me if im wrong...but we all would never be if it wasnt for God...see this is the problem...who was responsible for the being of Jesus on this Earth? Jesus himself or the Father? Who created God? Can God be created? Does God take birth? Or has God always existed?
This is one of our main arguements against the Ahtiests...that God always existed...but for everything to exist...there must be a First Cause...nuclear particles cannot create themselves on their own and nor can space dust just exist...that is beyond their definition...but if you say God was created...the way you do with Jesus...that God took birth...then this contradicts the way God is infinite and beyond creation and thus we need another an alternative First Cause...it messes everything up.
U say Jesus was a Manifestation of God? Why would u degrade God in this way? That God comes to Earth...eats...sleeps and Poos...and does all the Humanly things...goes riding a camel looking for figs in the wrong season? Does this not go against God's Godly attributes and Majesty? How can God be Godly if you limit God to a Human figure? And what a failure for God...that God comes to Earth himself and still cant convince everyone to believe in him so that they can be saved...i mean if God cant achieve this Job...then what chance have previous Prophets or Messengers? What chance do Missionaries have? If your Godly Jesus himself could not convince everyone...u really think ure gonna convince ppl to believe in him as a God?
From Christian2: ''The prophets of the Old Testament did believe in Jesus because they were hoping that the Messiah would come during their lifetime. ''
As a Messiah...or a Prophet...Messenger...but not as a Manifestation of God or as God himself. This is the blasphemy and this is where the pattern disrupts. Past Prophets come and preach pure Monotheisism...and then God decides to come himself in the form of a Man...disrupting this pure Monothesism after so many thousands of years. Doesnt make any sense does it? Its not correlative of the past.
From Christian2: ''The Father did not kill His Son; We did, you and I. ''
Who created us? How were we created? Weak or Perfect? We werent created so that we would sin and then somebody else would come and repent for us. We were created so that we would have an objective in life...a Mission...to strive...there is no striving in your Theory my friend. God creates us the way we are to sin and then realises He made a mistake cos we cant cover our own sins...so He Kills His Son to seek repentance on our behalf? How is this justice or Right? Didnt God know we were gonna Sin? Could God have avoiding the Killing of His Son?
From Christian2: ''How are you saved, (Muslim)? How do you pay for your sins?''
From the Muslim: Yeh God asked for Sacrifices of Lambs...but not his Own Son...Gosh God cannot sacrifice anything of His Own...that is against the Majesty of God...we Need God...God doesnt Need us...if God sacrificed his own Son whom he Must have loved more than anybody else...sorry i mean God must have Loved Himself...then God would ask us to strive for His Sake because we Need God. U know what happened to past nations who denied God.
By taking Responsibility of my own actions and not relying on a Godly figure to repent on my behalf...not on others Shoulders...but on my own...by seeking the Pleasure of God...not by allowing Him to die for me...i mean can God die? By seeking forgiveness through encouraged good work...so that this benefits not only myself but others whom i have been placed with in this world...benefitting them...not using them by getting them to die for me...thats so selfish...I sin...and instead of repenting for myself...i get somebody else to die and repent and cover my Sins. Our Idea and Sense of seeking forgiveness is alot different from the Christians. God forgives Whom He Wills...Whom God considers to be Sincere...because God is also the Best of Judges.
So please do not accuse me of Killing God.
Again i ask you...are the Muslims saved cos we believe and love Jesus and we believe in One God??? Its fine to say im not saved if this is what u believe.
******
Sometimes trying to reach Muslims is so difficult. Mind bloggling. Now I am asking you: How do we effectively witness to Muslims? The problem is the Qur'an; they think it comes from God; how do we counter that? And notice the Paul stuff. I run into this all the time--it was Paul, Paul, Paul--Paul didn't teach what Jesus taught, etc., etc.
From Christian2: ''I asked you to put aside the concept of the Trinity and consider whether Jesus made claims that only God can make. Yes He did. For one Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. If you sin against me, I can forgive you, but if you sin against God, only God can forgive you, yet Jesus forgave sins against God. ''
From the Muslim: This is a claim made by Paul etc. Not Verified Authentically by Jesus himself. And Jesus can also Forgive Sins against God if God allows his Prophet Or Messenger to relay this to the ppl...a Messenger or Prophet does not need to be God himself to know if God has forgiven Sins against God. For example...if you revert To Islam...then your Previous Sins against God are forgiven by God...now Muhammed (saw) relayed this message to us...but does that mean Muhammed is a God as well?
And why should we caste aside the Most Fundamental Part of your Faith? Your Most integral Doctrine? How can we believe in God if we dont know what God wants us to believe?
We do not believe that Jesus blaspemised the way Paul did, hence we reject this notion of Trinity.
From Christian2: ''There are some people who call themselves Christians who do not believe in the Trinity as defined by Trinitarian Christians, yet they believe that Jesus was God. They believe that it was the Father who manifested Himself in the human body of Jesus. ''
From the Muslim: Exactly...so there are no set rules, why not? Why didnt Jesus fix these things? There is a difference of opinion in all matters...but in the Creed? In the most basic side of one's Faith? Some saying we believe in Jesus...but not as a Trinitarian God of any sort. Yet they still remain as Christians?
From Christian2: ''I asked you why God chose to have Jesus born miraculously. ''
From the Muslim: If you claim something is a Miracle...then you do not seek to find a explaination behind it...because it is Miraculous...ie Unexplained...u use an Analogy to prove that Jesus is God cos he was born without a Father...but by Analogical Deduction...Adam is more virtuous...cos he was the first of the Creations and had no Parents whatsoever. If God wanted then he could have chosen another way to make it less Miraculous cos God is capable of anything as you have already admitted...so again this point is a fallacy.
From Christian2: ''Adam was not divine. There was no other way for Adam to be born, but there was another way for Jesus to be born. Adam is called a son of God in the New Testament. Adam could be described as God's "son" in the figurative sense because Adam never would have been if it weren't for God. ''
From the Muslim: Why was he not Divine? Isnt Jesus beyond Divinity? I mean God must be above your sense of Divinity? So why does this matter?
And the same verses you use to show that Jesus was actually the Son of God can also be intrepated in this way as well. Like many Unitarians do.
And correct me if im wrong...but we all would never be if it wasnt for God...see this is the problem...who was responsible for the being of Jesus on this Earth? Jesus himself or the Father? Who created God? Can God be created? Does God take birth? Or has God always existed?
This is one of our main arguements against the Ahtiests...that God always existed...but for everything to exist...there must be a First Cause...nuclear particles cannot create themselves on their own and nor can space dust just exist...that is beyond their definition...but if you say God was created...the way you do with Jesus...that God took birth...then this contradicts the way God is infinite and beyond creation and thus we need another an alternative First Cause...it messes everything up.
U say Jesus was a Manifestation of God? Why would u degrade God in this way? That God comes to Earth...eats...sleeps and Poos...and does all the Humanly things...goes riding a camel looking for figs in the wrong season? Does this not go against God's Godly attributes and Majesty? How can God be Godly if you limit God to a Human figure? And what a failure for God...that God comes to Earth himself and still cant convince everyone to believe in him so that they can be saved...i mean if God cant achieve this Job...then what chance have previous Prophets or Messengers? What chance do Missionaries have? If your Godly Jesus himself could not convince everyone...u really think ure gonna convince ppl to believe in him as a God?
From Christian2: ''The prophets of the Old Testament did believe in Jesus because they were hoping that the Messiah would come during their lifetime. ''
As a Messiah...or a Prophet...Messenger...but not as a Manifestation of God or as God himself. This is the blasphemy and this is where the pattern disrupts. Past Prophets come and preach pure Monotheisism...and then God decides to come himself in the form of a Man...disrupting this pure Monothesism after so many thousands of years. Doesnt make any sense does it? Its not correlative of the past.
From Christian2: ''The Father did not kill His Son; We did, you and I. ''
Who created us? How were we created? Weak or Perfect? We werent created so that we would sin and then somebody else would come and repent for us. We were created so that we would have an objective in life...a Mission...to strive...there is no striving in your Theory my friend. God creates us the way we are to sin and then realises He made a mistake cos we cant cover our own sins...so He Kills His Son to seek repentance on our behalf? How is this justice or Right? Didnt God know we were gonna Sin? Could God have avoiding the Killing of His Son?
From Christian2: ''How are you saved, (Muslim)? How do you pay for your sins?''
From the Muslim: Yeh God asked for Sacrifices of Lambs...but not his Own Son...Gosh God cannot sacrifice anything of His Own...that is against the Majesty of God...we Need God...God doesnt Need us...if God sacrificed his own Son whom he Must have loved more than anybody else...sorry i mean God must have Loved Himself...then God would ask us to strive for His Sake because we Need God. U know what happened to past nations who denied God.
By taking Responsibility of my own actions and not relying on a Godly figure to repent on my behalf...not on others Shoulders...but on my own...by seeking the Pleasure of God...not by allowing Him to die for me...i mean can God die? By seeking forgiveness through encouraged good work...so that this benefits not only myself but others whom i have been placed with in this world...benefitting them...not using them by getting them to die for me...thats so selfish...I sin...and instead of repenting for myself...i get somebody else to die and repent and cover my Sins. Our Idea and Sense of seeking forgiveness is alot different from the Christians. God forgives Whom He Wills...Whom God considers to be Sincere...because God is also the Best of Judges.
So please do not accuse me of Killing God.
Again i ask you...are the Muslims saved cos we believe and love Jesus and we believe in One God??? Its fine to say im not saved if this is what u believe.
******
Sometimes trying to reach Muslims is so difficult. Mind bloggling. Now I am asking you: How do we effectively witness to Muslims? The problem is the Qur'an; they think it comes from God; how do we counter that? And notice the Paul stuff. I run into this all the time--it was Paul, Paul, Paul--Paul didn't teach what Jesus taught, etc., etc.