Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:58 pm
by Resident Atheist
The odds are skewed. In reality a) christ gave false prophecies, and b) there were 15 people with almost identical mythologies built around them. These "proofs" could have been easily invented after the fact, or christ as an actual person may not have existed at all.
Yet another one of the "assuming the bible is telling the truth"... proofs. Assuming the bible is telling the truth, the earth is flat (Revelation 7:1, Isaiah 11:12, Luke 4:5, Matthew 4:8, Daniel 4:11 etc), the sun revolves around it (Psalm 104:5), thunder is not actually high-pressure air and low pressure air meeting, but god's booming voice (Job 37:2-3), the clouds aren't high-atmosphere moisture, but dust clouds from god walking around all day (Nahum 1:3) etc, etc, etc...
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:26 pm
by Resident Atheist
Read about it more, you'll find the bible actually says somewhere the earth is sphere.
<b>If memory serves there actually is no hebrew word for sphere, it says "the circle of the earth", most likely as in a disk. It's purposeful mis-interpretation into "circle" is plain decietful.
Talking about the translators, not accusing you of anything.</b>
Btw, Isaiah 11:12 and the others are referring to compass, north south east west.
<b>The compass was invented some 2,000 years ago in china.</b>
and luke4:5 doesnt even say anything about the earth.
<b>It says the devil took christ to the top of a mountain and showed him "all of the kingdoms of the earth in a moment of time", which is geometrically impossible unless the earth is flat.</b>
Actually no. It set so that it follows its track, the earth earth revolves aroudn the sun folowing the same path every year.
<b>"The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved."</b>
Actually, it says this: "Listen! Listen to the roar of his voice, to the rumbling that comes from his mouth. 3 He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth.
<b>Yes, it includes lightning as well. More untruths.</b>
I don't think thats completly literal.
<b>I'm willing to go along with that. Just tell me it's figurative meaning.</b>
Have you ever focused on the main proofs of the bible thoguh then these weak passages? The bible explains how the water cycle works in the first century, plus more:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml
<b>In a second I'll post a copy of something I posted on myspace a loooooong time ago where I systematically debunked a long list of these so-called bible science truths. Most of which are in the link you gave.</b>
the bible also says Is 51:13: “the Lord your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens and laid the foundations of the earth” sounds like the universe expanding huh?
<b>No, it sounds like it's in the past tense, and you're reading into it what it doesn't explicitly say.</b>
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:31 pm
by Resident Atheist
Isaiah 66:1 states that the earth is God's footstool. I guess, according to you Resident, people at that time really thought both of God's feet were literally on the earth??
<b>I can't speak to that.</b>
its funny how you claimed Christ gave false prophecies, yet you dont give any examples.
<b>He said numerous times that the earth would end very soon, in the lifetimes of his apostles and others:
Mark 9:1
And he (Jesus) said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
Matthew 16:28
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all (the second coming, the resurrection, the judgment, etc) be fulfilled.
Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
John 5:25-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
James 5:8
Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
1John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is near. Therefore be of sound mind, self-controlled, and sober in prayer.
Happy?</b>
or christ as an actual person may not have existed at all.
I guess the Apostles hung around with, wrote about the life of, and built an entire church around a non-existent man, huh? dang those apostles and their conspiracies...
<b>Why not? Fifteen other people's apostles did. Or don't you know about the other supposed "sons" of god?</b>
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:43 pm
by Jay_7
If memory serves there actually is no hebrew word for sphere, it says "the circle of the earth", most likely as in a disk. It's purposeful mis-interpretation into "circle" is plain decietful.
Just a sec.. "about 2,700 years ago, the Bible said: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word here translated "circle" can also mean "sphere," as various reference works note. Other Bible translations, therefore, say, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and, "the round earth."—Moffatt."
Talking about the translators, not accusing you of anything.
Exactly, the hewbrew texts contian no contradictions, and the translators make the mistakes, though that why bibles are always being releases, they are making it mroe pure each time. Most contradictions surprisingly arent at all, just misinterpretations, havent been translated right, many have been fixed up.
The compass was invented some 2,000 years ago in china.
Btw, Isaiah 11:12 and the others are referring to compass, north south east west.
It says the devil took christ to the top of a mountain and showed him "all of the kingdoms of the earth in a moment of time", which is geometrically impossible unless the earth is flat.
Your a very literal person aren't you.
"The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved."
Yep, firmly fixed in its path around the sun.
Yes, it includes lightning as well. More untruths.
Once again, your evry literal. In the passage where it says God is stretching the heavens, it sounds like hes talknig about universe expanding, but do you really think hes actually stretching it? No, same with the lighting.
In a second I'll post a copy of something I posted on myspace a loooooong time ago where I systematically debunked a long list of these so-called bible science truths. Most of which are in the link you gave.
Ok then.
No, it sounds like it's in the past tense, and you're reading into it what it doesn't explicitly say.
Alright, that still doesn't prove that it does mean that.
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:50 pm
by Resident Atheist
<b>This is a post I made elsewhere, about science and the bible. Most of the same "evidences" are present, so I'm reposting it.</b>
The Bible, and evolution vs. creationism, and science:
Not only is the Bible filled with the fundamentals of science, but it is as much as 3, 000 years ahead of its time. The Bible's statements in most cases directly contradicted the science of the day in which they were made. When modern scientific knowledge approaches reality, the divine accuracy of the scriptures is substantiated. For example:
Biblical Statement: Number of stars exceeds a billion (Jer. 33:22).
Science Then: Number of stars totals 1, 100.
Science Now: Number of stars exceeds a billion.
<b>"22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me."
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see it... What, exactly, is the roman numeral for billion? Also, even if it said that, which it doesn't, there are many more than a billion <i>galaxies</i>, let alone stars. It's still inacurate, even when you cheat.</b>
Biblical Statement: Every star is different (1 Cor 15:41).
Science Then: All stars are the same.
Science Now: Every star is different.
<b>"41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory."
Wowie. No, really, that's impressive... particularly seeing as how ancient astronomers <i>knew</i> that not every star was the same. Thousands of years ago chinese astronomers whitnessed a supernova, which is now the famous "crab nebula". Ancient scientists knew one star was different from the others, particularly since some are brighter than others. They also knew that some "stars" were planets.
Total crock. But lets not stop there, shall we? Lets show what great astronomical wisdom the authors of the bible had, shall we?
They knew that stars were balls of burning hydrogen, many times the size of earth, not little white dots, right?
“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind” (Revelation 6:13). “And [the red dragon's] tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth” (Revelation 12:4)."
I'll let that speak for itself.</b>
Biblical Statement: Light is in motion (Job 38:19-20).
Science Then: Light is fixed in place.
Science Now: Light is in motion.
<b>"19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?"
In context he seems to be saying "who are you to say you know anything?" Where does he say that light moves?
Particularly as any idiot looking at a sunrise moving over a mountain can tell that sunlight moves.</b>
Biblical Statement: Air has weight (Job 28:25).
Science Then: Air is weightless.
Science Now: Air has weight.
<b>"24 For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven; 25 To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure."
He's not talking about air, he's talking about <i>wind</i>, which <i>does have weight</i>. Stop manipulating scripture.</b>
Biblical Statement: Winds blow in cyclones (Eccl. 1:6).
Science Then: Winds blow straight.
Science Now: Winds blow in cyclones.
<b>"6 The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."
So, the ancients never "caught on" that tornados exist, eh?
Something tells me they took notice. The bible also says that tornados are god's way of punishing the wicked:
""Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked" (Jeremiah 30:23). "Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble" (Isaiah 40:24)."
Is everyone who dies in a tornado wicked?
Or is struck by lightning?
""Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth" (Job 37:2-3)."
Or earthquakes?
""Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger" (Isaiah 13:13). "Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth" (Psalms 18:7).
Or drought?
"The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. The Lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed" (Deuteronomy 28:22-24).
See, I can read the bible too.</b>
Biblical Statement: Blood is a source of life and healing (Lev. 17:11).
Science Then: Sick people must be bled.
Science Now: Blood is a source of life and healing.
<b>"11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."
First off, blood is neither the source of life <i>nor</i> healing. You could just as easily say that nerve cells are the source of life, as you'd die without them. You could say that Iron is the source of life, since it allows your blood to bond with nutrients.
It's an extremely ignorant assertion.
And science didn't say that sick people should be bled, RELIGION did, as illnesses were "posession by demons", which could also be "cured" by sticking you in a tall tower and beating you until the demons left you.</b>
For centuries the conjectures of science also were at odds with Genesis 1 concerning the origin and development of Earth and of life on Earth.
<b>For years they were at odds with Greek mythology regarding <i>everything</i>. I don't see you worshopping the Olympian gods.</b>
However, science has progressed beyond these conjectures and now agrees with Genesis 1 in the initial conditions of Earth, the description of subsequent events, and in the order of these events. The probability that Moses, writing more than 3, 400 years ago, would have guessed all these details is less than one in trillions. Below is a partial list of other fundamentals of science explained in the Bible:
<b>That they would be trumped up and taken out of context however, is much more likely. Funny how since the bible apparently taught all the truths of science that religion banned science and philosophy for so long, and that none of these sooooooo apparent "truths" were brought to light...</b>
* conservation of mass and energy (Eccl. 1:9; Eccl. 3:14-15).
<b>"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun."
and
"14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. 15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past."
Are you kidding? Setting aside that neither are in any kind of scientific context, is he saying in the second that we should be afraid of thermodynamics? And it's not talking about matter, it's talking about actions. It seems to be saying that whatever god has done or made to be will always be... but then again I'm sure you'll say that that's a brief of quantum physics as well.</b>
* water cycle (Eccl. 1:7; Is. 55:10).<br>
<b>"7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again."
and
"10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: "
The first says "rivers pour into the oceans (I'm sorry, ocean*) but the ocean doesn't fill up, so water must go back where it came from.
You're right, that does go in-depth about condensation and evaporation! And besides, philosophers observed weather patterns, etc for hundreds and even thousands of years before christ was even born.
As for t he second, it <i>contradicts</i> the first, saying that rain falls from the sky and doesn't go back, which is <i>untrue</i>. It goes on to say:
"11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."</b>
* gravity (Job 26:7; Job 38:31-33).<br>
<b>"7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. 8"
and
"31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? 32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? 33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?"
The first is preceded by "Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof"
I'm just gonna let that one explain itself... As for the rest, the earth is not "hung upon nothing", it's "hung" upon the sun, which is "hung upon" another, which us "hung upon" another galaxy. These are the most scientific bible verses you can find? Neither of them even mentions gravity, but that earth has weight (which is a reasonable assumption) and the ancients knew that the ground didn't go on forever, since the stars, planets, sun, etc would have to carve through them every day.
Not proof, and in fact, disproof.</b>
* Pleiades and Orion as gravitationally bound star groups (Job 38:31). NOTE: All other star groups visible to the naked eye are unbound, with the possible exception of the Hyades.
<b>"31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"
First, it doesn't say that they are bound or unbound, it says "can you bind them?" which seems to mean "can you stop the stars from moving <i>around the earth</i>. And everything in the cosmos is "bound" by gravity, including orion and Pleiades, seeing as this galaxy revolves around another, and has a "child" galaxy, which revolves around ours.
Our entire galaxy, in fact our universe, is one large gravitational field.
Apparently god only knows so much physics.</b>
* effect of emotions on physical health (Prov. 16:24; Prov. 17:22).<br>
<b>"24 Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones."
and
"22 A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones."
Tell me, how do emotions heal or do damage to your skeletal system? Apparently anything I say to you goes straight to your bones.
Besides, even if it did say that emotions affect your health, that ancient peoples' could figure this out isn't in any way unreasonable.</b>
* control of contagious diseases (Lev. 13:4546).<br>
<b>"45 And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and his head bare, and he shall put a covering upon his upper lip, and shall cry, Unclean, unclean. 46 All the days wherein the plague shall be in him he shall be defiled; he is unclean: he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his habitation be."
Correction. Control of <i>slightly</i> contageous diseases believed in biblical times to be caused by sin* And big whoop, someone got sores from someone and they figured it out... oooooh. This was about the time the ancient greeks were experimenting with magnetism, right?
The authors of the bible being medical experts, what with believing hemmeroids to be caused by sin:
"The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed" (Deuteronomy 28:27).
"But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof" (1 Samuel 5:6).</b>
* importance of sanitation to health (Lev.; Num. 19: Deut. 23:12-13).
<b>Numbers 19? Yes, it tells of the importance of sanitation to health:
"1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, 2 This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke: 3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, that he may bring her forth without the camp, and one shall slay her before his face: 4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood directly before the tabernacle of the congregation seven times: 5 And one shall burn the heifer in his sight; her skin, and her flesh, and her blood, with her dung, shall he burn: 6 And the priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast it into the midst of the burning of the heifer. 7 Then the priest shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp, and the priest shall be unclean until the even."
You're kidding, right? Granted, there is wisdom in the bible, but it is the result of human thought, not divinity.</b>
control of
* cancer and heart disease (Lev. 7-19).
<b>"19 And the flesh that toucheth any unclean thing shall not be eaten; it shall be burnt with fire: and as for the flesh, all that be clean shall eat thereof."
I honestly don't even know where you got cancer and heart disease outta that.</b>
In the crucible of scientific investigation, the Bible has proven invariably to be correct. No other book, ancient or modem, can make this claim; but then, no other book has been written (through men) by God.
<b>Invariably correct? Are you kidding? Setting aside that the references you gave often disprove this instead of proving it, here are some more "invariably correct" bits from the bible:
The clouds are dust from god's footprints:
"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet" (Nahum 1:3)."
Placing striped or spotted tree limbs in goats' watering troughs causes their babies to be born striped or spotted:
“And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut [sic] tree; and pilled white stakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted” (Genesis 30:37-39).
A bat is a bird:
"And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, . . . and the bat” (Leviticus 11:13-19).
Heaven is a few hundred feet above the ground, since bronze-age peoples' built towers which almost reached it:
“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded [sic]. And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do” (Genesis 11:4-6).
Tell me, do Egypian men have penises the size of donkeys' and ejaculate as much as horses?
“Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses” (Ezekiel 23:19-20)."
That the bible is infallable is absolutely untrue.
Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 4:00 pm
by Resident Atheist
Just a sec.. "about 2,700 years ago, the Bible said: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word here translated "circle" can also mean "sphere," as various reference works note. Other Bible translations, therefore, say, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and, "the round earth."—Moffatt."
<b>It could mean either, so for the purpose of debate it means neither. We cannot assume it means one or the other to prove or disprove the bible's authenticity. Agreed?</b>
Exactly, the hewbrew texts contian no contradictions, and the translators make the mistakes, though that why bibles are always being releases, they are making it mroe pure each time. Most contradictions surprisingly arent at all, just misinterpretations, havent been translated right, many have been fixed up.
<b>Do you speak Hebrew?</b>
Btw, Isaiah 11:12 and the others are referring to compass, north south east west.
<b>The directions are not the same as a compass. And it says "four corners of the earth", there are not four extremeties of the earth in any shape or form.</b>
<i>It says the devil took christ to the top of a mountain and showed him "all of the kingdoms of the earth in a moment of time", which is geometrically impossible unless the earth is flat.</i>
Your a very literal person aren't you.
<b>No, it's a very literal verse. Unless you have a figurative interpretation?</b>
"The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved."
Yep, firmly fixed in its path around the sun.
<b>You know <i>anything</i> means something else if you add a few words. Just read from the actual bible please, don't re-write it as you go along.</b>
Once again, your evry literal.
<b>No, once again the bible is being literal.</b>
In the passage where it says God is stretching the heavens, it sounds like hes talknig about universe expanding, but do you really think hes actually stretching it?
<b>Did you even hear that I said it's in the past tense? And that it doesn't say the universe is expanding? Not to mention that the big bang was a pushing, not a pulling, of the universe.</b>
No, same with the lighting.
<b>No, one is figurative, one is literal.</b>
Alright, that still doesn't prove that it does mean that.
<b>It does negate it as a scientific proof though.</b>
