Evidence for God from Science

If the Jews don't accept Jesus as the messiah, who do they think the messiah will be, when do they think he will come?

If they don't accept the prophesies of Jesus in the bible, what do they say about them? Do they accept these prophesies as prophesies? What are the prophesies they are looking for to be fulfilled?

Basically, from what I remember, Jews dodge the bullet and claim that the prophecies were subjectively interpreted. So you unload 45 prophecies, they'll claim it can be interpreted another way most likely.

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:.... So you unload 45 prophecies, they'll claim it can be interpreted another way most likely....

Would your statement apply to our Christadelphian friend too?

It's useful to quote from Jewish rabbinical sources to illustrate that they understood these prophecies as Messianic.

Once you've done that, it's simple to prove that Christ fulfilled them.

Take the 'He shall be called a Nazarene' passage in Matthew as one example. The gospel of Matthew is making a play on one of the titles of Messiah ('netser', 'branch'), and the name of the town Nazareth. A number of Scriptural passages refer to Messiah as 'the branch', but only some of them actually use the word 'netser', which appears to be the source of the wordplay in Matthew (netser - Nazarene).

The most probable source of the quotation is the passage in Zechariah, on which Gill comments as follows:

Ver. 12. And speak unto him, saying, &c.] That is, to Joshua the high priest, having the crowns on his head:

thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, behold the man whose name {is} The BRANCH; which is not to be understood of Zerubbabel, as some Jewish writers interpret it; for he was not "the Branch", by way of eminency, much less that righteous Branch of David, called the Lord our righteousness, Jer 23:5,6 the same that is here meant; besides, he was already grown up out of his place; nor did he build a temple, from which he had great glory; nor was he either king or priest, only governor of Judah; and, however, not both, as this person is represented to be; and who is no other than the Messiah; and so the Targum paraphrases the words,

“behold the man Messiah is his name; ”

and Jarchi owns that some of their Rabbins interpret the words of the King Messiah.

The "Branch" is a name by which the Messiah goes in the Talmud {k}, and in other Jewish writings.

{k} T. Hieros. Beracot, fol. 5. 1

John Gill, 'Commentary On The Bible', 1748

The term 'the branch' was understood by the rabbis to refer to Messiah both before and after Christ.

The commentary by Rabbi Joshua Ben Levi (mid 200s AD), is particularly pertinent to this discussion:

Branch is the name of Messiah," for it is written, "Behold the man whose name is Branch, and He shall grow up out of His place."

Midrash, Ezekiel 48:35

This comment by Rabbi Kimchi (1160 - 1235 AD), is also relevant, though less striking:

By the Righteous branch is meant Messiah.

That a wordplay on netser/Nazarene is the correct understanding of the passage in Matthew, is supported by contemporary rabbinical writings.

The Targum of Rabbi Yohanan Ben Zakkai (1st century AD), makes a similar wordplay when conflating of two Messianic passages in Jeremiah 23:25 (or Jeremiah 33:15), and Ezekiel 17:22-3:

Thus says the Lord God:

--"I will myself bring near a child from the kingdom of the house of David,
which is likened to a tall cedar,
and I will raise him up from his sons' sons.
With my Word {Memra} I will anoint him
and I will establish him like a high & lofty mountain. 23 I will establish him on the mountain of the Holy One of Israel..
and he shall gather armies and build forts and be a mighty king.

All the righteous shall rely on him,
and all the humble shall dwell in the shade of his kingdom.

The conflation of texts on a certain theme was another common Rabbinical device used in the Targumim and Midrashim, and is also found in the New Testament.

The word which Rabbi Yohanan translates as 'a child' is actually the Aramaic word yoneqeth, which means branch.

But Rabbi Yohanan does not write yoneqeth in his Targum, he writes yaniq, which is a word from the same root. Here Rabbi Jonathan makes a wordplay on the word 'branch' which is strikingly similar to the wordplay in Mathew on the other Hebrew word for 'branch' which is used in other Messianic passages in the Old Testament.

Since Rabbi Jonathan was contemporary with Christ, his Targum is a powerful witness to the fact that such wordplays:

• Would be recongised as a legitimate form of exegesis
• Were used by the Rabbis themselves
• Were applied to the Messianic passages by the Rabbis
• Were applied to at least one of the 'branch' passages in the Old Testament, by the Rabbis

Here's a list of passages which were interpreted as Messianic by the Jewish rabbis. These are the very passages identified as Messianic by the New Testament:

Kings and rulers shall not cease from the house of Judah,
nor scribes teaching the Torah from his seed,
until the time when the youngest of his sons, the king Messiah, shall come
and because of him the peoples shall flow together.

11 How lovely is the king Messiah, who is to rise from the house of Judah.
He girds his loins and goes out to wage war on those who hate him,
killing kings and rulers...
and reddening the mountains with the blood of their slain.
With his garments dipped in blood,
he is like one who treads grapes in the wine press [cf. Isa 63:3].

12 More lovely are the eyes of the king Messiah than pure wine---
not to see the uncovering of nakedness or the shedding of innocent blood.
His teeth are purer than milk---
not for eating what is torn or stolen.
So his mountains are red (from vines) and his winepress red from wine
and his hills white from grain and sheepfolds

Targum, pseudo-Jonathan on Gen 49:10-12, 1st century AD

"Sanctify unto me all the first-born" (Exod 13:1)
Rabbi Nathan said:

--"The Holy One, blessed be He!, told Moses:
-- 'Just as I made Jacob a first-born, as it is said:
--'Israel is my son, my first-born" (Exod 4:22),

so will I make the king Messiah a first-born, as it is said:

--Also I will affirm him 'the first-born' (Ps 89:28).

Midrash, Shemoth Rabbah 19.7, 1st-3rd century AD

See my servant the Messiah whom I bring near,
my chosen one in whom my Word [Memra] takes delight;
I will place my Holy Spirit upon him
and he will reveal my Torah to the nations.

Targum, Jonathan on Isa 42:1, 1st century AD

Go up on a high mountain, you prophets who bring good news to Zion!
Lift up your voice in strength, you who bring good news to Jerusalem.
Lift it up (and) do not fear. Say to the cities of the house of Judah:

--"The kingdom of your God is revealed.!"

Targum, Jonathan on Isa 40:9, 1st century AD

See, the Messiah my servant shall prosper;
he shall be lifted up and thrive and grow strong.

How many days the house of Israel hoped for him!
Their appearance was dark among the nations;
their bright countenance was darkened among the sons of men.

Targum, Jonathan on Isa 52:13-14, 1st century AD

From pain and punishment (the Messiah) will gather our exiles.
And who can recount the wonders
which shall be performed for us in his days?
For he shall take the dominion of the nations away from the land of Israel,
and he shall account to them the sins that my people committed.

Targum, Jonathan on Isa 53:8, 1st century AD

Thus says the Lord God:
--"I will myself bring near a child* from the kingdom of the house of David,
which is likened to a tall cedar,
and I will raise him up from his sons' sons.
With my Word [Memra] I will anoint him
and I will establish him like a high & lofty mountain.

I will establish him on the mountain of the Holy One of Israel..
and he shall gather armies and build forts and be a mighty king.
All the righteous shall rely on him,
and all the humble shall dwell in the shade of his kingdom.

Targum, Jonathan on Ezek 17:22-23, 1st century AD

Rabbi Hillel (II) said:
--"There will be no Messiah for Israel,
since they already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah [cf. Isa 9:6-7].

Rabbi Joseph said:

--"(God) forgive him! When did Hezekiah live? During the first temple!

But Zechariah prophesied during the second temple and said:

--"Rejoice abundantly, daughter of Zion! Shout out, daughter of Jerusalem!
Look! Your king comes to you!

He is righteous and delivered, humble and riding on an ass,
and on a colt, the foal of an ass." (Zech 9:9).

Talmud Babylon, Sanhedrin 99a, compiled 5th century AD, original reference undoubtedly pre-Christian

Rab (Abba Arika) said:

--"The world would not have been created except for David."

(Rabbi) Samuel (bar Abba) said:

--"For Moses!"

Rabbi Johanan (bar Nappacha) said:

--"For the Messiah!"
What is his name?

The school of Rabbi Shila said:

--"His name is Shiloh, for it is said:
--'until Shiloh come' (Gen 49:10)!"

The school of Rabbi Jannai said:

--"His name is Yinnon, for it is said:
--'He shall endure forever,
before there was a sun his name is Yinnon' (Ps 72:17)!"

The school of Rabbi cHanina said:

--"His name is cHanina, for it is said:
--"as I will not give you favor [chanina]' (Jer 16:13)!"

Others say his name is Menachem, the son of Hezekiah, for it is said:

--'For the comforter [Menachem] is far from me,
the one who revives my soul" (Lam 1:16b)!"

But the rabbis say:

--"His name is the leper teacher, for it is said:
--'Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows
yet we deemed him stricken [nago'a: "plagued", esp. leprosy],
laid low by God and suffering" (Isa 53:4)!

Talmud Babylon, Sanhedrin 98b, compiled 5th century AD, original references undoubtedly pre-Christian

Rabbi Johanan (bar Nappacha) said:

--"The son of David will come only in a generation
that is altogether innocent or altogether guilty."

In a generation that is altogether innocent, as it is written:

--"And your people shall be righteous,
they shall inherit the land forever" (Isa 60:11)

In a generation is altogether guilty, as it is written:

--"And he saw that there was no man
and he wondered that there was no one to intercede" (Isa 59:16).

Talmud Babylon, Sanhedrin 98a, compiled 5th century AD, original references undoubtedly pre-Christian

Rabbi Alexandri said Joshua ben Levi juxtaposed (this) text:

--"And see, with the clouds of heaven
came one like a son of Man [bar einish]" (Dan 7:13)

and this text:

--"(See, your king comes to you...)
humble and riding on an ass" (Zech 9:9)

"with the clouds of heaven": (if) they are worthy;
"humble and riding on an ass": (if) they are not worthy.


Talmud Babylon, Sanhedrin 98a, compiled 5th century AD, original references undoubtedly pre-Christian

"(And) the LORD (de)clares that he will build you a house..." and

"I will raise up your seed after you..." and

"I will establish the throne of his kingdom
(forev)er. I (will b)e his Father and he shall be my son" (2 Sam 7:11-14).
He is the Branch of David who will rise up with the Interpreter of the Torah [doresh haTorah]

(to rule) in Zi(on at the) end of days, as it is written:

--"I will raise up the tent of David which has fallen" (Amos 9:11).

The "tent of David which has fallen" is he who will stand up to save Israel.

Dead Sea Scrolls, Messianic Florilegia (4Qflor), 1.10-13, 1st century AD

Thank-you, guys. Lots of good information.